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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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Oh, I don't actually think that. But its about as logical as your assertion that I only think more recent Total War games have more complex internal mangement mechanics than EU4 because I'm bad at said games. Its literally just your own 'logic' applied against you.
Once again, that's literally not how logical reasoning works. I made a statement that "If A is true, it does not necessarily mean B is true." You tried to follow that up with "If B is true, A is true." Which does not follow logically at all, since the first conclusion means A and B are independent of each other.

And considering I didn't claim EU had complex internal mechanics, nor did I claim I was bad at EU, you're just flailing around with nonsense and imagined statements instead of thinking clearly.
 
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This time Period is in history famous with loosing to inferior foe due to overconfidence and stupidity and for the term of getting a place in the sun.
Which is where the part of 'managing supply lines and military careers' come into play. If you do an Italy and send a few thousand soldiers at Ethiopia with a dumbass general in an impossible mission to win against all odds because Italy needs to prestige dab a bit, well, it ain't gonna go well.
 
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I'm happy if the combat mechanics are a simplified version of HOI4 frontlines.

What I don't want is RISK Global Domination combat mechanics.
Well you should be happy then because this change is finally moving away from the Risk/Diplomacy/wargame mindset for strategy games and toward actual grand strategy.
 
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Some people sure seem to "know" a lot about how the system will be, seeing as we only got a very vague overview of things.

When I finished reading the DD I instantly thought two things:
a) well it seems there is no point presuming too much before a few more weeks come to pass; and
b) some guys are really gonna run with this and it is going to be painful to watch. Insofar, well....
 
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If you click on the right box you win.
Again made my point, I am not telling they will not be there, but they are going to be simplified to a point that it will be click and win.
And if you click on the right keys at the right time, you can play a Beethoven sonata. Knowing which clicks to make and when should not be a trivial matter.
 
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I was really looking forward to Vicky 3 but won't be buying this game now, Its probably just going to be speed 5 till an event/wanting to do some menu interaction then speed 5 again inb4 someone replies manually moving troops is gamey yea its a game I want to actually have some interactive entertainment purely menu clicking isn't fun to me.
 
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Which is where the part of 'managing supply lines and military careers' come into play. If you do an Italy and send a few thousand soldiers at Ethiopia with a dumbass general in an impossible mission to win against all odds because Italy needs to prestige dab a bit, well, it ain't gonna go well.
It is no good experience to be solely depending on AI sending a bad General and waiting the paint to dry because I do not have enough resources to breakthrough . There should be enough agency for the player in Victory and in defeat
 
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I really don't understand from what design perspective it makes sense to remove unit micro from a pdx grand strategy title, this is one of the greater aspects of the ck, hoi and eu series. Basically one of the base mechanics that make the titles great, especially in multiplayer. Please don't create a sadly failed game like Imperator by taking unsenseful design decisions killing a good base.
 
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I have a question :
What is the player even going to do during a war ?
Let's say I have build various factories to produce military goods for my soldiers, I made sure infrastructures and railroads are in a good shape so my armies are well supplied, I picked a good general to lead them into battle and chose their global combat stance. And it's finally time for war !
...
Now what ?

Am I really going to watch passively as provinces slowly change colour ? With little to no input at all from me ? Or even worse go back to handle my country's economy and a few months later get a "by the way you won/lose" pop up to remind me that : ah yes, I almost forgot ! There was a war going on !

To put it simply what actions will players have to do during a war to be kept invested in the conflict ?
I would expect there will be mechanics to send reinforcements or orders to retreat. among other options.
 
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It is no good experience to be solely depending on AI sending a bad General and waiting the paint to dry because I do not have enough resources to breakthrough . There should be enough agency for the player in Victory and in defeat
You will have agency in precisely those areas you mention. You will be responsible for getting better generals and getting more resources.
 
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If units aren't moved individually, then how do the individual provinces factor in? If I remember correctly, wasn't it stated in an earlier dev diary that they they to facilitate unit movement?
probably by that they meant not induvidually the way we know . it will help armies move the way they should be represented in this game . probably as military symbols like in hoi3 or something totally new .
they didnt say they wont be an army at all . they will be and they will recieve orders to do tasks but not in the micro way we know but more like how peoples above take decisions in real life probably .

this mean you prepare weapons , cannons , roads , ships , logistics etc for them so when you make the plan all your praparation and infrastructure make that happen with ease
 
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I really don't understand from what design perspective it makes sense to remove unit micro from a pdx grand strategy title, this is one of the greater aspects of the ck, hoi and eu series. Basically one of the base mechanics that make the titles great, especially in multiplayer. Please don't create a sadly failed game like Imperator by taking unsenseful design decisions killing a good base.
If unit micro is a constant source of player exploits that AI improvements can not overcome, then removing it makes great sense from a play-balance perspective.
 
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It is no good experience to be solely depending on AI sending a bad General and waiting the paint to dry because I do not have enough resources to breakthrough . There should be enough agency for the player in Victory and in defeat
Then you should have used a strategy that involved making sure you had the resources in the first place.
 
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It is no good experience to be solely depending on AI sending a bad General and waiting the paint to dry because I do not have enough resources to breakthrough . There should be enough agency for the player in Victory and in defeat
There isn't a lot of agency in Victoria 2. You either have the demographics, tech and modifiers to win your AI bait battles or you don't. I'm being more flippant than I ought to, I know, after all I engaged with and enjoyed old Paradox games. But let's not pretend that Moving Troops is Agency, and Not Moving Troops but managing the army in some other but still yet unknown ways Necessarily Is Not Agency. I don't know the details. You don't know the details. I can claim the game is going to be an extremely complex experiment in operational warfare. You can claim you're gonna AFK for 5 mins until the war is over. We would both be wrong. The difference is that I am not making claims either way, but you are.
 
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You will have agency in precisely those areas you mention. You will be responsible for getting better generals and getting more resources.
I cannot imagine this being an interesting gameplay or even being successful. What is the meaning of managing limited recourses on a small front for example - there is nothing to engage with.
 
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Then I may agree. But using HOI4 mechanics as an example, can you explain to me what mechanics in that game are "tactical warfare" mechanics and which ones are "strategic warfare" mechanics?

If other users apart from @Jamaican Castle want to answer this for me, I will be happy to read you.
Anyone willing to explain me the difference between "tactical warfare" and "strategic warfare" with HOI4 examples (or other PDX games maybe)?
 
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I would expect there will be mechanics to send reinforcements or orders to retreat. among other options.
If only there were a bunch of future dev diaries planned to tell us all about it. /s

Well no units on a map, guess you guys are gonna lose income on spritepack dlc then...
I wouldn't bet on that. They have those animated pop portraits, people love customizing those.
 
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