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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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The Anglo-Zulu War is (in my opinion) much better represented by some unit-in-province system. How would you even represent the Battle of Isandlwana followed by Rorke's Drift without having units in provinces?
There are all kinds of ways you could do that without having toy soldiers.

And given the typical unit size granularity of Vicky/EU units, those alternate methods would probably work better than toy soldiers.
 
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Skales

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Still impossible without overpowering the small nations with modifiers as oppose to give you agency to fight and win against all odds and get the sweats for it.
As a reference I can cite a youtube Video of DRJake: 40 Years of War against the Ottoman Empire to illustrate what I mean.

We don't know what the system will be like, but it certainly should be possible. I don't know the video you are referencing but I bet it includes cheesing the AI.
 
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Finally the abstraction puts me on level playing field with the AI. Maneuvering to catch AI, which has infinite attention span and patience, in favourable combat in EU, CK or IR is such a pain.
 
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Wow really intrigued about how this will play out. Whether this will work out or not I applaud you for trying to stimulate reality instead of going to arcade route like so many other strategy games.
 
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LordLemos

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And literally all of that will still be in the game. War will still change economics, industrial development and social movements.
If you click on the right box you win.
Again made my point, I am not telling they will not be there, but they are going to be simplified to a point that it will be click and win.
 
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If you click on the right box you win.
Again made my point, I am not telling they will not be there, but they are going to be simplified to a point that it will be click and win.
What is it with you and just ignoring all of the resource management, time constraints, contextual strategy and long term planning, you know all of the actual gameplay in a paradox game?
 
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There are all kinds of ways you could do that without having toy soldiers.

And given the typical unit size granularity of Vicky/EU units, those alternate methods would probably work better than toy soldiers.
Yeah, I guess you could represent the concentration of Zulus by having a particularly high number (about ~20,000) of soldiers under one leader on a few provinces, and the main British force (about 1,850) by having another concentration of soldiers on a few provinces, and when the main British numbers encounter the Zulu, you have a battle, which after being defeated, the British soldiers on the province move to another province in South Africa for recovery. I wonder what you could represent these gatherings of organized soldiers on individual provinces in a way that would be intuitive and recognizable as...
 
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Gaius Augustus Caligula

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I understand why you've decided to remove individual units from warfare, but my biggest fear is that is will make combat significantly less interesting and less fun. From what the diary says, it sounds like warfare will be like Hoi4, but if you could only use frontlines & battleplans. You have to build your industry and economy, form the right alliances, train the best troops, and field the best equipment you can, assign troops to the right fronts, but you can't control what exactly your units do in battle.

This system has the potential to make player vs ai wars much more competitive. In Eu4 and Hoi4, for instance, players can often beat AI nations that have larger, more powerful armies through superior tactical maneuvering, which deemphasizes the diplomatic, economic, and political aspects that go into a war. This obviously would conflict with Vic3's design goals, and is not desirable.

Bringing more emphasis towards large scale strategic decisions is very welcome, and helps showcase the "Grand" in "Grand Strategy". I look forward to how things like Scott's Great Snake in the American Civil War, Prussia's superior mobilization in the Franco-Prussian war, the unprecedented logistics of the Crimean War, and pretty much everything about WWI will be modeled in this system. However, without the detailed map combat that has been a staple of Paradox GSGs for over a decade, Victoria 3 might miss out on bringing the best warfare of any Paradox game, since it would be missing a piece of the puzzle, so to speak.

This could especially hurt the multiplayer of Vic3, and since I mostly play multiplayer in Paradox games, I might not buy the game if the multiplayer pvp is subpar. In other Paradox GSGs, including Victoria II, good players are separated from the best players by how fast and efficiently they can juggle microing troops and running the nation, and this fast-paced gameplay is the most exciting part about Paradox game multiplayer. A massive tank battle on the eastern front in Hoi4, for instance, is the climax of all the hours you put in to meticulously research and build the best equipment, the player alliances you forged, and the troops you've trained. If greater strategic options come at the cost of removing features that make Paradox Grand Strategy games fun to play, I will be very disappointed in the missed opportunities a game that provides both could bring to the table.


I genuinely believe that Victoria 3 has the potential to have the best combat of any Paradox game, and I will describe how I imagine this could be achieved.


The timeframe of Victoria saw a dramatic transfer from Napoleonic thought to more modern, Hoi4 style warfare, and it would be a damn shame to not have a hand in this on the map. We should first look at how Vic2 models this with combat width. At the beginning of the game, combat width is high, and deathstacks dominate the battlefield, maneuvering and picking the best opportunities to engage in battle, much like in Eu4. By the end of the game, combat width is so low that there's no reason to stack 100k troops onto a tile, since they can't all fit into the battle anyways. Therefore, it's more effective to spread your army over the entire front line, and this models how that exact phonomenon took place in WWI.

Victoria 3 has a massive opportunity to improve combat over its predecessor.

Thanks to Hoi4, we have a system at our disposal that can help massive frontlines require less micromanagement: frontlines. At the beginning of the game, combat could operate in a Napoleonic fashion, but over the course of the game, more Hoi4-like features such as planning, army groups, offensive orders, frontlines, and features that work off of railways in No Step Back such as strategic redeployment and supply/logistics. These features could be unlocked a number of ways, such as researching military technologies, or perhaps during the first Great War. That would certainly do a wonderful job of modeling how the Great War in our timeline flipped conventional ideas of warfare on their head. These features, like in Hoi4, would help the player manage large numbers of troops on the map while still allowing the freedom to pull of epic maneuvers and Reddit-worthy encirclements, such as at the Battle of Sedan.View attachment 770650

The biggest issue this brings up is the AI. I mentioned at the beginning that mechanics like this give human players a big advantange over the AI that trivializes many parts of the game that should be focused on in Victoria 3. I understand that you have to balance game performance with AI ability, so you can't have AI on the level of Google's DeepMind for 100+ tags. I'm not a veteran game developer, but perhaps you could have the AI "try harder" per say, and use more cpu resources and advanced strategies, when fighting a human opponent to keep the AI challenging to beat while minimizing the performance cost of the 100+ tags that are not fighting the player. You could also potentially lock better AI skills behind general skill level, so for instance fighting Robert E. Lee or William Sherman would be more difficult that fighting Ambrose Burnside, and for performance reasons, armies commanded by weak generals or fielded by unrecognized nations would use less cpu time.

I genuinely believe that Victoria 3 has the potential to have the best combat of any Paradox game. I hope that over the coming weeks my concerns will be relieved, and that the new mechanics will keep players on their toes during tough wars. If anyone can do it, it's the devs at Paradox. If you read this whole thing, make sure to leave a reaction, or comment if you agree, disagree, or have something to add.
While I do respect the committment to theorize about a different way to handle warfare, I think you are forgetting that Victoria 3 isn't supposed to be a wargame. The main focus is Nationbuilding via politics and economy. War is just one aspect of many. The game isn't supposed to be like Hoi4 where the main aim of the game is to conquer your enemies.
 
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If you click on the right box you win.
Again made my point, I am not telling they will not be there, but they are going to be simplified to a point that it will be click and win.
"If you click on the right box you win." describes every game
 
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I really love this. Don't listen to the loud minority who will try make a tempest over this.

Managing individual units is the worst thing about Vic II. And world wars became stale and boring, micromanaging 700 units. And a stack of units is a stupid concept. Even in Napoleon's time, where a army marched... it wasn't a single stack.

Which also makes no sense. Because I never liked the concept of making a huge stack and marching picking smaller stacks. If that was done in real life you would lose the war since you'd be easily maneuvered and cut off.

I wanted something like this for ages now. Glad you took a leap of faith in the right direction.

Hope something like this can ticked down to other PDX tittles after its success.
 
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auzewasright

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We don't know what the system will be like, but it certainly should be possible. I don't know the video you are referencing but I bet it includes cheesing the AI.
Sun Tzu wrote a famous guide on cheesing the AI.

(sarcasm, for anyone wondering. But anyways, wars of attrition and baiting the enemy aren't "cheesing the AI", the cheesing issue is that the AI falls for them every time without fail)
 
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Jamaican Castle

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And how can you simulate the lost made by Pals battalions on WW1? And have a hole region angry that its citizens got killed?
There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.
In other words, they plan on having battlefield casualties remove actual people from actual pops, and convert workforce pops to dependents because of war wounds. Even if that doesn't cause any unhappiness/radicals in and of itself (which it could) it will definitely crash their standard of living as they have many fewer incomes spread over the pop.

How do they know where the troops came from? Well, we know for a fact that there are military buildings located in states, which makes it simplicity itself to say "assign X,000 troops from this barracks to this front" and have the battle link directly to the pops that work in that building.
 
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grommile

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I wonder what you could represent these gatherings of organized soldiers on individual provinces in a way that would be intuitive and recognizable as...
Well, let's see.

From a conventional Paradox GSG perspective, Rorke's Drift was in the same province as Isandlhwana (they were only six miles apart) and happened on the same day, so it would be treated as part of the same battle.

And the British forces in the province that day were less than one Vic2 recruiting quantum.
 
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