• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

16_9 (4).jpg

Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

dd22-1.png

The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

dd22-2.png

The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

dd22-3.png

The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

dd22-4.png

The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

dd22-5.png


The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

dd22-6.png

Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
  • 582Like
  • 516Love
  • 278
  • 86
  • 71
  • 16Haha
Reactions:

Voodoo Lilium

First Lieutenant
70 Badges
Nov 30, 2017
274
870
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
I wonder, are there going to be some similarities to ck2 warfare, where the tactics your armies choose are dependent on factors like unit composition and leader skills? I can imagine a situation where you, as a country, emphasize certain types of units and promote generals based on skillsets in order to specialize in certain tactics in order to maximize the potential of a smaller army fighting on home terrain, vs a sprawling empire where greater flexibility may be more important, and also the need for more generals to command more armies means an overall drop in quality.

I can see a lot of interesting potential with a system like this, but I guess we'll see as more details trickle out. Can't wait!
 

Antimonum

Captain
83 Badges
Feb 18, 2014
432
828
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings III
This wasn't really possible in the previous games without cheesing the AI. Now you might actually win as the minor power, assuming you have good generals, the game simulates guerilla warfare and a bit of luck. We have no reason to assume it doesn't.
Unlikely battles and wars were won on tactics not on luck (the Zulu, Serbia holding Austria at the Danube for almost 2 years in ww1, Tha Balkan League actually winning, Bulgaria holding at Doiran for years at 7 to 1 numbers in ww1. Those things is mostly due to troop moral and clever tactics and not luck and grinding. Also the activities of Zulu are purely tactical and cannot be represented with vague guerilla mechanics.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:

wilcoxchar

Field Marshal
98 Badges
Nov 15, 2004
5.123
17.759
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
There's your answer.
All that tells us is that it's not going to be individual discrete units located in individual discrete provinces acting alone. Nothing more.
 
  • 11
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Skales

Banned
2 Badges
Dec 11, 2015
1.726
7.899
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
I wonder, are there going to be some similarities to ck2 warfare, where the tactics your armies choose are dependent on factors like unit composition and leader skills? I can imagine a situation where you, as a country, emphasize certain types of units and promote generals based on skillsets in order to specialize in certain tactics in order to maximize the potential of a smaller army fighting on home terrain, vs a sprawling empire where greater flexibility may be more important, and also the need for more generals to command more armies means an overall drop in quality.

I can see a lot of interesting potential with a system like this, but I guess we'll see as more details trickle out. Can't wait!

CK2 had an interesting warfare system, which almost no one understood, not even me with 1870 hours.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

bigrigg47

Sergeant
35 Badges
May 21, 2021
97
459
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
I love this, and I have a some thoughts about it also.

First of all, I think this change is pretty indicative of something I've been noticing about Victoria 3 that I think is going to make it feel very distinct from most GSGs: its theory of history.

In the past, history was often presented via the great man theory, the idea that history is largely driven by specific individuals making huge, influential decisions. The idea is that these specific people (your Napoleons and your Muhammads) were so uniquely talented and gifted that they massively changed history all by themselves, regardless of the cirumstances of their time or place. In fact, video games often sort of take this stance, putting you in the shoes of these "geniuses" (whether explicitly or more abstractly) uniquely affecting history through your "inborn talents" (knowing the mechanics of the game and being able to exploit the AI). However, this game seems to be taking a different approach.

This game seems to view history as more of a history from below, a more modern approach where history is viewed as mostly driven by the people, their mass movements, and their material conditions. This was pretty evident in the game's domestic politics system, where pop's political views are more inextricably connected to their material conditions than something like "a political leader's charisma stat."

This is why this change makes perfect sense and perfectly meshes with what seems to be their design philosophy. If history is not driven by talented individuals but by the material conditions of the masses, then war is not a struggle of "cool dudes seeing who can be more clever," it's a struggle of economics and training and technology and high-level strategic posture.

If your generals are smarter and make better tactical maneuvers, then cool, that's awesome for you, but why is that the case? Did the Prussians outmaneuver the French in the Franco-Prussian War because the "spirit of the Prussian nation" is inherently smarter and better at war than the "spirit of the French nation"? Obviously not. Well, why then? Because of the Prussian military training system, because of French political instability, because of all sorts of actual material factors that you can affect in this game.

This game just doesn't seem interested in having you represent the specific "geniuses" of a country, its more about you affecting the lives of huge numbers of people and seeing how that affects history. If you believe that a GSG should be "deciding which side has the better geniuses," I just don't think you'll vibe with this game that much.

If you're worried that you won't be able to have a good time as small nations because you won't be able to curbstomp superpowers in wars that you really should have no business being in at all - I say this with complete sincerity and not an ounce of scorn - turn down the difficulty. Wanting to be able to show off your personal tactical superiority (usually just cheesing the AI) and destroy anyone in war is, effectively, just wanting an easier game - and that's fine! I hope they include difficulty settings so I can conquer Germany as Luxembourg too. I just don't want to have an AI that either: 1) can always get destroyed by the player 2) needs clunky artificial bonuses to match up to the player at all.

Secondly, I think this change probably makes it far easier to represent the diversity of wars that we see in the world. For example, rebellions. In Victoria 2, rebellions were one of two things: 1) literal whack-a-mole where you just walked your armies around to clean up the rebels 2) a hopeless fight where there were just too many rebels and you just had ot wait until you lost. They were exceedingly unsatisfying. Rebellions and unrest and insurgencies are just not well modeled with discrete, controllable military units. How do you model one guy shooting out his window at a passing patrol? Are you really going to make a 1 man unit that you have to manually march in your 10k strong army to stop? No, the best way to model these things is by using a more abstract military system that can represent a lot more than army facing off vs army in the field of battle.

Every war (for me) seemed to go the same way in Victoria 2, your armies would fight and then within a couple months one side would obviously get the upper hand and stream into the country uncontested, and either win the war immediately or spend several years occupying every province in Siberia practically uncontested. If you get away from individual units, it allows the devs to have much better control over the macro of wars and they can actually represent the slogs of trench warfare or colonial wars or insurgencies and not have every war just be a quick, costless curbstomp.

Edit: another thing that it's literally impossible to model in a directly-controlled unit-based system. Disobedient generals. In Victoria 2's combat, how do you represent a general that simply refuses to follow the wishes of the civilian government? You simply can't.
 
Last edited:
  • 21
  • 4Like
  • 2
  • 2
  • 1Love
Reactions:

Skales

Banned
2 Badges
Dec 11, 2015
1.726
7.899
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
Unlikely battles and wars were won on tactics not on luck (the Zulu, Serbia holding Austria at the Danube for almost 2 years in ww1, Tha Balkan League actually winning, Bulgaria holding at Doiran for years at 7 to 1 numbers in ww1. Those things is mostly due to troop moral and clever tactics and not luck and grinding. Also the activities of Zulu are purely tactical and cannot be represented with vague guerilla mechanics.

Things that are more likely to be simulated under the new system, we know for certain they were not in the old system.
 
  • 9
  • 2
Reactions:

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.443
38.817
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
Also the activities of Zulu are purely tactical and cannot be represented with vague guerilla mechanics.
They can't be represented with operational unit control either.
 
  • 11
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:

Mannock

Second Lieutenant
48 Badges
Jul 19, 2002
157
213
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
I understand that you will take a lot of flak for this, but I love this design choice. Very brave and absolutely brilliant. Keep this up and don't listen to the nay sayers.
 
  • 13
  • 3
Reactions:

Voodoo Lilium

First Lieutenant
70 Badges
Nov 30, 2017
274
870
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
CK2 had an interesting warfare system, which almost no one understood, not even me with 1870 hours.
I've read about it on the wiki, but the handful of times I've played, I've more or less ignored it because I had no idea what I was doing with it lol. I'm hoping (assuming even?) that if they do anything similar with Vicky 3, it will be much more transparent and better explained.
 
  • 4
  • 1Like
Reactions:

wilcoxchar

Field Marshal
98 Badges
Nov 15, 2004
5.123
17.759
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
They can't be represented with operational unit control either.
Yeah, that's going to be one of the big benefits of this system. It has the possibility of actually representing asymmetric warfare much better than any player-directed unit-in-province system would ever be able to.
 
  • 9
  • 4Love
  • 1
Reactions:

Chief of Staff

The Duke of Rockford
85 Badges
Jun 27, 2010
2.192
1.053
37
www.virtualparadise.org
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Pride of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Before I say anything, please read all of this before you judge what I wrote. That being said, I think, in the view of the diary that sets out broadly what the warfare will generally entails without going into specifics, it is premature to judge whether this radical change is good or not. Frankly, given the scant details, we should reserve our judgments for the time being until we have seen dev diaries that goes into more details about how the warfare will work in actual gameplay.

Furthermore, I would advise caution against reading too much into anything that have been said in this dev diary. Avoid making assumptions without strong evidence to back them up.

This is indeed a gamble that may or may not break the game for the players but I should remind everyone here that a significant number of features which we take for granted in the grand strategy genre today were undoubtedly innovations that would have been a great gamble back then. I can see a scenario where this change become widely accepted despite the reservations made about it, provided that it works out good in practice without making the game much less enjoyable.

It is easy and quite tempting to quickly judge this without having sufficient information. We have this human tendency to extrapolate things from what little details we have. Yet, I think only the time will tell whether the developer will have made a right decision in making this radical break from the past for Victoria 3.

Finally, I may be mistaken as this is only based on what I have personally observed but it seems to me that Wiz had a pretty positive reception when he was the original lead developer for Stellaris. Likewise, it appear that his work on Europa Universalis IV was also well received before he left. Assuming that these are accurate observations, then I think we can expect the same for Victoria III. Of course, it is too soon to tell whether he have made a right call in radically changing how the warfare works in Victoria III in comparsion to previous Paradox grand strategy titles.
 
  • 7
  • 5
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Mr. Toodguy

Recruit
1 Badges
Mar 26, 2019
5
15
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
I understand why you've decided to remove individual units from warfare, but my biggest fear is that is will make combat significantly less interesting and less fun. From what the diary says, it sounds like warfare will be like Hoi4, but if you could only use frontlines & battleplans. You have to build your industry and economy, form the right alliances, train the best troops, and field the best equipment you can, assign troops to the right fronts, but you can't control what exactly your units do in battle.

This system has the potential to make player vs ai wars much more competitive. In Eu4 and Hoi4, for instance, players can often beat AI nations that have larger, more powerful armies through superior tactical maneuvering, which deemphasizes the diplomatic, economic, and political aspects that go into a war. This obviously would conflict with Vic3's design goals, and is not desirable.

Bringing more emphasis towards large scale strategic decisions is very welcome, and helps showcase the "Grand" in "Grand Strategy". I look forward to how things like Scott's Great Snake in the American Civil War, Prussia's superior mobilization in the Franco-Prussian war, the unprecedented logistics of the Crimean War, and pretty much everything about WWI will be modeled in this system. However, without the detailed map combat that has been a staple of Paradox GSGs for over a decade, Victoria 3 might miss out on bringing the best warfare of any Paradox game, since it would be missing a piece of the puzzle, so to speak.

This could especially hurt the multiplayer of Vic3, and since I mostly play multiplayer in Paradox games, I might not buy the game if the multiplayer pvp is subpar. In other Paradox GSGs, including Victoria II, good players are separated from the best players by how fast and efficiently they can juggle microing troops and running the nation, and this fast-paced gameplay is the most exciting part about Paradox game multiplayer. A massive tank battle on the eastern front in Hoi4, for instance, is the climax of all the hours you put in to meticulously research and build the best equipment, the player alliances you forged, and the troops you've trained. If greater strategic options come at the cost of removing features that make Paradox Grand Strategy games fun to play, I will be very disappointed in the missed opportunities a game that provides both could bring to the table.


I genuinely believe that Victoria 3 has the potential to have the best combat of any Paradox game, and I will describe how I imagine this could be achieved.


The timeframe of Victoria saw a dramatic transfer from Napoleonic thought to more modern, Hoi4 style warfare, and it would be a damn shame to not have a hand in this on the map. We should first look at how Vic2 models this with combat width. At the beginning of the game, combat width is high, and deathstacks dominate the battlefield, maneuvering and picking the best opportunities to engage in battle, much like in Eu4. By the end of the game, combat width is so low that there's no reason to stack 100k troops onto a tile, since they can't all fit into the battle anyways. Therefore, it's more effective to spread your army over the entire front line, and this models how that exact phonomenon took place in WWI.

Victoria 3 has a massive opportunity to improve combat over its predecessor.

Thanks to Hoi4, we have a system at our disposal that can help massive frontlines require less micromanagement: frontlines. At the beginning of the game, combat could operate in a Napoleonic fashion, but over the course of the game, more Hoi4-like features such as planning, army groups, offensive orders, frontlines, and features that work off of railways in No Step Back such as strategic redeployment and supply/logistics. These features could be unlocked a number of ways, such as researching military technologies, or perhaps during the first Great War. That would certainly do a wonderful job of modeling how the Great War in our timeline flipped conventional ideas of warfare on their head. These features, like in Hoi4, would help the player manage large numbers of troops on the map while still allowing the freedom to pull of epic maneuvers and Reddit-worthy encirclements, such as at the Battle of Sedan.
reddit-worthy encirclement.jpg


The biggest issue this brings up is the AI. I mentioned at the beginning that mechanics like this give human players a big advantange over the AI that trivializes many parts of the game that should be focused on in Victoria 3. I understand that you have to balance game performance with AI ability, so you can't have AI on the level of Google's DeepMind for 100+ tags. I'm not a veteran game developer, but perhaps you could have the AI "try harder" per say, and use more cpu resources and advanced strategies, when fighting a human opponent to keep the AI challenging to beat while minimizing the performance cost of the 100+ tags that are not fighting the player. You could also potentially lock better AI skills behind general skill level, so for instance fighting Robert E. Lee or William Sherman would be more difficult that fighting Ambrose Burnside, and for performance reasons, armies commanded by weak generals or fielded by unrecognized nations would use less cpu time.

I genuinely believe that Victoria 3 has the potential to have the best combat of any Paradox game. I hope that over the coming weeks my concerns will be relieved, and that the new mechanics will keep players on their toes during tough wars. If anyone can do it, it's the devs at Paradox. If you read this whole thing, make sure to leave a reaction, or comment if you agree, disagree, or have something to add.
 
  • 6
  • 3Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Voodoo Lilium

First Lieutenant
70 Badges
Nov 30, 2017
274
870
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
My honest reaction. I'm very skeptical and I believe this won't work.
I hope I'm wrong and the next dev diaries show that I'm wrong. I hope the system turns out something like hoi4's battleplanner system (or something better that I can't think of right now), you can't control your units but you can at least set up fronts, plans, generals, see your units fighting, etc.
But if warfare is poorly represented and everything is automated based off your decisions prior to the war, to me this is a VIC3 killer.
Personally, I'm hopeful that this'll work, but also feeling very apprehensive about it. With the more traditional warfare systems, even if it's not executed particularly well, it will be functional and players will know what they're doing. But with this, I feel like it ALL rests on their execution. They either pull it off or they don't, I don't think there's much middle ground.

I hope they do some thorough playtesting down the road, they're going to need a lot of player feedback to ensure a good launch, imo.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

auzewasright

Corporal
36 Badges
Dec 11, 2020
48
207
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • March of the Eagles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
Yeah, that's going to be one of the big benefits of this system. It has the possibility of actually representing asymmetric warfare much better than any player-directed unit-in-province system would ever be able to.
The Anglo-Zulu War is (in my opinion) much better represented by some unit-in-province system. How would you even represent the Battle of Isandlwana followed by Rorke's Drift without having units in provinces?
 
  • 6
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Voodoo Lilium

First Lieutenant
70 Badges
Nov 30, 2017
274
870
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
Bold.

However, I think you should have held off on this dev diary. This... will not go over well with a good amount of people. This diary should have been the prologue to a deep dive diary that immediately jumps into the intricacies of this system. I feel that doing so would have prevented much of the ill sentiment spiraling about at the moment, since knowing more about the system would have tempered a lot of apprehensive reactions, even if it meant a month or two hiatus on the diaries.

Either way, what's done is done. Looking forward to what is to come.
On the contrary, I think announcing this relatively early on and getting player feedback is extremely important for the game. Waiting until later on and suddenly springing such a huge departure from what we're used to, without much time to make big adjustments, could be devastating.
 
  • 6
Reactions:

LordLemos

Second Lieutenant
97 Badges
Jan 8, 2007
193
118
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • War of the Vikings
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
Ok, let me rephrase it. War isn't the primary focus of Vicky, and shouldn't be. Yes, war happened, yes, war was important in the timeperiod, but compared to economics, industrial development, development of new social movements... it was not as crucial
Let me use the "think Sarius think" meme here.
War changes the economics, changes the industrial development, changes the social movements IT WAS ALL CRUCIAL.

Woman working on factories in WW2 because of the lack of men made the difference and open the way for women working today. (this is just an example)
Napoleon III war on Prussia made it possible to form Germany and ended the Monarch (another simple example)
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Druplesnubb

Lt. General
42 Badges
May 14, 2013
1.380
1.105
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Magicka
  • Imperator: Rome
Let me use the "think Sarius think" meme here.
War changes the economics, changes the industrial development, changes the social movements IT WAS ALL BUT CRUCIAL.

Woman working on factories in WW2 because of the lack of men made the difference and open the way for women working today. (this is just an example)
Napoleon III war on Prussia made it possible to form Germany and ended the Monarch (another simple example)
And literally all of that will still be in the game. War will still change economics, industrial development and social movements.
 
  • 10
  • 1
Reactions:

Antimonum

Captain
83 Badges
Feb 18, 2014
432
828
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings III
Things that are more likely to be simulated under the new system, we know for certain they were not in the old system.
Still impossible without overpowering the small nations with modifiers as oppose to give you agency to fight and win against all odds and get the sweats for it.
As a reference I can cite a youtube Video of DRJake: 40 Years of War against the Ottoman Empire to illustrate what I mean.
 
  • 8
  • 1
Reactions:

MTGian

Colonel
50 Badges
Jul 27, 2004
1.128
2.715
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
Still a mindless attrition slogfest with no actual strategy possible. This is like HOI4, if HOI4 was literally just the production window.

We have been told what they are. Fronts slam against each other, generals assigned to a front give positive or negative modifiers, the front that runs out of men and material first loses.

I think this is a very important point that needs to be refuted until we have more information.

In one of the threads where the idea of a theater based military system was discussed, I proposed that military encounters could occur in phases. And those phases would not necessarily have to be linear. There could be a recon phase, then a maneuver phase, then depending upon what happens, perhaps another recon phase, then another maneuver phase. There could be a skirmish phase with forward units feeling each other out. There would definitely be a battle phase, where armies lay into each other. All of this could involve decisions by both the player and the AI based around factors related to their armies, geography, logistics, etc., etc. Every phase could involve a decision. There could be a ton of decisions that are involved in military conflict.

Whether they did all of that, I don't know. But neither do you. Maybe you are right. Maybe you just assign units to a front and the AI does the same, then battle happens with no decision making by the player at all. Maybe. But maybe what I propose above is what they implemented. What I proposed above sounds a little bit like the diplomacy system, does it not? And if the system is a bit like what I proposed above, then you are dead wrong.

I don't mean to pick on you, although with your countless posts taking on the entire thread you have asked for it, but I want to nip this interpretation in the bud. We don't know what type of decisions the developers will have players make with military encounters yet. It is too early to assume that there are none.
 
  • 8
  • 2
Reactions: