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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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This will make the game just click on a box and get a reward, if you click on the right box you win.
Now I can only say:
RIP Victoria, you will be missed.
And yes, of course all wars included in that period was just logistics maneuvering troops was not important, not even for WW1
I'd hedge a bet that this won't be true. Preperation, strategy, maybe even setting specific targets (ports, chokepoints, etc.) for your forces will all be in the game.
The concentration of forces can't be represented, because all you do is assign manpower to frontlines. The game will be unable to know how many troops are in Province XYZ if it tried to represent force concentration, because troops aren't in provinces, they're in frontlines.

That's the only way it can work, because there's no force concentration and no real manoeuvre. The game

Yes it is true. Because force concentration and manoeuvre cannot be represented in such a gameplay system. Attrition slogfests are the way all wars will go, because it's the only way you can fight.
Do you have access to the Dev diaries of the next few weeks? Like, pretty much nothing of this was said in the DD.
 
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This sounds great! It can turn out bad or not fun ofc, but im very happy this is the route taken, as it is certainly the most interesting one and has the highest potential. With units on map, there was already the issue with changing warfare from the earlier era to ww era, and im sure this gives more ways how to model the transition.
 
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This is what I felt held/holds some PDX titles back. Some games are not the tactical board games.
It's not just holding back Paradox games. It's holding back the entire strategy game genre. The paradigm of the genre is still stuck with the 40+ year old Risk/Diplomacy/wargame mindset that they absolutely must include some sort of personally controlled combat, and that mindset comes at the expense of so many other possibilities in mechanics and directions to take strategy games.
 
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The concentration of forces can't be represented, because all you do is assign manpower to frontlines. The game will be unable to know how many troops are in Province XYZ if it tried to represent force concentration, because troops aren't in provinces, they're in frontlines.

That's the only way it can work, because there's no force concentration and no real manoeuvre. The game

Yes it is true. Because force concentration and manoeuvre cannot be represented in such a gameplay system. Attrition slogfests are the way all wars will go, because it's the only way you can fight.

Give an example of something else.
I can think of many different ways it could work. I suggested one before: you give a general strategic objective like “seize that railway juncture” which then intersects with the opposing army’s strategic objective and results in movement of the front in different ways at different places. Maybe you seize the railway junction, but the enemy concentrated on surrounding a population center on your side of the line.

It could be you don’t have that level of control, and that the personality of your general impacts those decisions. So if you have someone overly cautious like Mccllelan, your army makes little ground, whereas if you have someone like Grant it does (at the cost of higher immediate casualties).

Or it could be some combination of the two. What I am pretty confident it is not is the system you’re proposing, where the entire frontline moves at a uniform pace in only one direction. Because that directly contradicts what Wiz said about control of provinces determining “the course of fronts and the war.”
 
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Yes, and wars can also end in negotiated peace with both sides taking and losing things - but more on that later!

This is lovely. This is actually how most wars ended up throughout modern history, though admittedly especially in the EU4 time period, still, a good step forward.
 
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"Higher level of abstraction" = "dumbing down".
In hoi4, internal affairs are extremely abstracted because that’s not what the game is about. Ck3 does not feature trade goods, eu4 has only limited dynastic gameplay.

But it is true that when you make a grand strategy, the assumption is that the game will be “all-encompassing” in some ways. So I guess it’s a matter of personal preference what is the ideal abstraction level of each game aspect.
 
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Oh boy, 36 pages in a few hours.

So guys, do we have a consensus? We liked the new system or didn't we?
A vast majority of people like the new system. It's just a small few people who have been against it.
 
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So is every Paradox game. "Click army on province and get reward, if you click on the right province, you win." And so is every computer game. Like first person shooters. "Click on enemy person/alien/whatever, get reward, if you click on the head, you win." Or city builders. "Click on building and get reward, if you click on the right building, you win."

I'm sorry you're upset that computer games have a mouse and keyboard interface.
I could agree with you but them we both would be wrong.
But I will give you a chance to think about what I told on my first post:
You click on an army, you decide where it goes, you decide how many of your troops will go, and so on and on and on, all of those have consequences, is not only "yes I clicked in the box that says it will make it all work". Remember that little thing on WW1 were Germany didn't put any troops on it eastern front because thought Russia couldn't mobilize soon enough and could use its troops to finish France quicker?

This is just an example, you want to do a game without armies, no problem, but that will make the game worst that if it had.
 
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It's not just holding back Paradox games. It's holding back the entire strategy game genre. The paradigm of the genre is still stuck with the 40+ year old Risk/Diplomacy/wargame mindset that they absolutely must include some sort of personally controlled combat, and that mindset comes at the expense of so many other possibilities in mechanics and directions to take strategy games.
People do it because it works. That's the reality.
 
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Oh boy, 36 pages in a few hours.

So guys, do we have a consensus? We liked the new system or didn't we?

Based on my understanding from seeing the reaction in different place:

PDX forums have a majority in favour, with a minority disliking it.

Outside PDX forums there are a majority who dislike it and a minority who want it.

Personally, this made me go from leaning towards buying the game to leaning towards not buying the game. So far this sounds like warfare will be extremely boring and even if it isn't the main focus it's still a major focus.

Wiz should have done a far more in-depth diary on how warfare works because this one fills me with a lot of reservations, and a short one like this seems guaranteed to generate a shit storm and make a lot of people upset.
 
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Gotta say that I'm quite disappointed. I had heard the theories that this was how the war system would be, but hoped they would be wrong. I know that Vicky 3 is not a war focused game, so I wasn't expecting anything like HOI4 or March of the Eagles as some other people were, but I thought it would at least have basic warfare under the control of the player. This system just seems...boring. Not what I expected from a game that covers the time period of WW1. It's almost like HOI4's warfare if you removed all player involvement outside of creating fronts and assigning units and generals to them. We still know almost nothing about Vicky 3's warfare, so perhaps the upcoming DDs will change my mind, but as of right now my excitement for the game has drastically decreased :(
 
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Druplesnubb

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Remember that little thing on WW1 were Germany didn't put any troops on it eastern front because thought Russia couldn't mobilize soon enough and could use its troops to finish France quicker?
That is literally one of the only things we know will actually be represented. Pretty much the only thing we know of how war works so far is that you wil lhave to decide to what degree you'll mobilize and how much of your forces you'll send to which front.
 
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Leoreth

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Not going to lie, I had hoped for something like this, but didn't really believe you would actually do this. Kudos for being this bold.

I hope you aren't giving in to the inevitable backlash that this will have. And I hope the community is patient with the implementation. A new system being tried for such an important part of the game will likely not be perfect right out of the gate. I hope we get the time and commitment to get it right as the game develops.
 
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Markus Rezai

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This is absolutely mental! I was hyped before, now I can barely wait for release day.

Warfare was consistently, and by far, the worst aspect of PDX games, but this sounds like a great leap forward!
 
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