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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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we do need total war victoria tho
Nah. I prefer strategy games with actual strategy and not the bland, simplistic gameplay that Total War has once you get bored of fighting battles after the 10th or so one and just hit auto-resolve the rest of the time.
 
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What you fail to understand is that before this announcement EVERYBODY was in favour of the game.
This statement is... not really true.

There are already plenty of people who have loudly proclaimed "not buying it!" over things like "how the building of factories works" and "how electoral politics works".
 
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They should, but they can't, because you can't concentrate forces to attack or defend a given province, because units have been abstracted away into "assigning manpower to fronts".

How else? There is no way to concentrate forces in a province to attack or defend, because all you do is "assign manpower to fronts" and pick a general. Without units, the game has no way of measuring force concentration in a given province. Without that, you have the mindless uninteresting slogfest I described. Everything follows from that one reality you refuse to admit.

Yes, again, that's the only way we can do this, because there is no room for any kind of actual strategy in this system of warfare. Because all we can do, literally, is assign manpower to fronts. Abstracting away military units inevitably destroys strategy.
You still have provided zero evidence for all of these things you claim.
 
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This will make the game just click on a box and get a reward, if you click on the right box you win.
Now I can only say:
RIP Victoria, you will be missed.
And yes, of course all wars included in that period was just logistics. maneuvering troops was not important, not even for WW1
 
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I am not sure about this talking point that the system only works well at representing the Western front. Ignoring for a moment that we literally have no idea how it works yet. It could be much more scalable than the previous system we had, representing small colonial expeditions, guerrilla warfare, and urban street-to-street battles which are all important throughout the time period and need to be represented.
 
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You can’t concentrate forces, no. That doesn’t mean that the war mechanics can’t.
The concentration of forces can't be represented, because all you do is assign manpower to frontlines. The game would be unable to know how many troops are in Province XYZ if it tried to represent force concentration, because troops aren't in provinces, they're in frontlines.
Your assumption that the entire front moves at the same time is almost certainly not how it works.
That's the only way it can work, because there's no force concentration and no real manoeuvre. The game can't do these things.
Now we’re regressing. We already got you to admit this wasn’t true, remember?
Yes it is true. Because force concentration and manoeuvre cannot be represented in such a gameplay system. Attrition slogfests are the way all wars will go, because it's the only way you can fight.
They, in fact, are not.
Give an example of something else.
 
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This is what I felt held/holds some PDX titles back. Some games are not the tactical board games.
This instantly solves Doomstacks. And like...Standing in province 1 and waiting for the AI to attack into it like idiots or standing in the adjacent province with a mountain filter over it and waiting for the AI to attack into it a really engaging mechanic? People pause a lot in single player, so finding the mountain provinces won't be that hard.

I think this also makes Diplomacy gameplay in Multiplayer more interesting. Some younger folks micro real good in real time, but I think this opens up the multi-experience more.
 
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This will make the game just click on a box and get a reward, if you click on the right box you win.
Now I can only say:
RIP Victoria, you will be missed.
So is every Paradox game. "Click army on province and get reward, if you click on the right province, you win." And so is every computer game. Like first person shooters. "Click on enemy person/alien/whatever, get reward, if you click on the head, you win." Or city builders. "Click on building and get reward, if you click on the right building, you win."

I'm sorry you're upset that computer games have a mouse and keyboard interface.
 
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Well, that's kind of a mistake, because it doesn't even work well at representing the Western Front.

There are many ways in which it could represent the western front, or not. We will see once it is actually revealed to us. So far I can only say that it is more likely to be scalable, which is a welcome addition.
 
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How will that work with the previously mentioned rule that you can't additional demands during a war (which I still think is terrible and should be done away with)?
You can't add demands after a war has started, but both sides of a diplomatic play will have put in demands. So probably the peace system will be a game of bargaining back and forth with the existing demands.
 
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I think it would be cool to integrate the tactical level with a PDX style grand strategic level, but I don’t see how that would be feasible.
Man we don't even really know anything about the system and you're allready saying we should integrate
But honestly to me total war is more about the battles, less about the other aspects so I don't really know if I would like that.