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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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These dev diary has 113 negative reactions and while is not the majority of the reactions, is still a lot and must be taken into account.
Honestly - it doesn't. I don't expect devs to try to please everyone. Victoria doesn't need to be a game for everyone. If someone is in love with military micromanagement, they have HOI, where it's a main focus of the game. Devs seem to have a vision of how they want the game to look like. It's risky. It can be a big disappointment if the mechanics do not make for a good game in reality. But I prefer bold moves that may pay off with really great game rather than defensive approach which would make V3 just... yet another Paradox game (I would probably play it anyway, just to make it clear ;) )
 
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Front lines do move. Provinces and strategic locations do matter.
They should, but they can't, because you can't concentrate forces to attack or defend a given province, because units have been abstracted away into "assigning manpower to fronts".
Now all you need to do is admit that you have no evidence for the assertion that “manpower is spread out evenly across a frontline”
How else? There is no way to concentrate forces in a province to attack or defend, because all you do is "assign manpower to fronts" and pick a general. Without units, the game has no way of measuring force concentration in a given province. Without that, you have the mindless uninteresting slogfest I described. Everything follows from that one reality you refuse to admit.
and that “frontlines just mindlessly swing in to each other”
Yes, again, that's the only way we can do this, because there is no room for any kind of actual strategy in this system of warfare. Because all we can do, literally, is assign manpower to fronts. Abstracting away military units inevitably destroys strategy.
 
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We have been told what they are. Fronts slam against each other, generals assigned to a front give positive or negative modifiers, the front that runs out of men and material first loses.
Could it be that the front gets pushed closer to one side and farther from the other, changing the logistical path and thus the relative ability to keep side supplied and reinforced?
 
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In all other Paradox titles, managing war makes me neglect all other aspects.
Let’s face it, maneuvering armies and sieging provinces gets old fast in Vic and EU. Unlike CK and HOI, this kind of micro-management does not tie to the other “game pillars”, so I am glad they decided for a higher level of abstraction.
"Higher level of abstraction" = "dumbing down".
 
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What you fail to understand is that before this announcement EVERYBODY was in favour of the game. It looks to me that about 20-25% of us, the potential customers, are THOROUGHLY disappointed and the majority of us are put off from buying the game all together
And people on the forum don't account for the entirety of the potential customer base of the game. And, besides, its not like the devs knew this didn't know this would be a controversial decision and I wouldn't be surprised if they had to get approval for the higher ups to make it. Given how controversy around the subject even before it was official announced, I'm guessing Paradox is going to be happy the fact roughly four times as many people are in favor of the choice the devs made. But we won't know whether or not the devs made the right call until the game comes out and people can buy and play it. And what majority? The majority of the people are in favor of the choice devs made going by the reactions to the DD. And, even if everyone who disliked the DD didn't buy the game, that's less than 150 at time of writing, an insignificant amount of people given the amount people that play PDX games - ~9,000 for CK3, ~20,00 for EU4 and ~40,000 for HoI4.
 
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Sounds better than the usual army clicking nonsense, but I imagine old shool players outcry will push devs back into the old system.
Yes, it'll fail and they'll be a major update to V3 that brings back an actual military system, just like they had to carry out major updates to Stellaris and IR to fix the immense flaws in those games.
 
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Bold.

BUT, Wiz earned serious cred with the bold 'let's redesign Stellaris' movement entirely and scrap two thirds of the related content' decision which DID make Stellaris better (even if it wasn't enough to stop the decay in design cohesion after that),

so even if I can't even imagine how a PDX GTS without armies walking across the map looks... I'll reserve my judgement for actual hands-on experience.
 
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Guys, remember one important thing. Since Crimean War wars are waged not on battlefields but in factories. Victoria is focused much more than other PDX games on economics so if economics in Vic3 turns out to have really sophisticated internal policy system, lack of typical management won't be even noticeable. There is another issue about that, no units, less CPU usage.
 
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They should, but they can't, because you can't concentrate forces to attack or defend a given province, because units have been abstracted away into "assigning manpower to fronts".

How else? There is no way to concentrate forces in a province to attack or defend, because all you do is "assign manpower to fronts" and pick a general. Without units, the game has no way of measuring force concentration in a given province. Without that, you have the mindless uninteresting slogfest I described. Everything follows from that one reality you refuse to admit.

Yes, again, that's the only way we can do this, because there is no room for any kind of actual strategy in this system of warfare. Because all we can do, literally, is assign manpower to fronts. Abstracting away military units inevitably destroys strategy.
Could it be that the “overall strategy” that you assign to a front has something to do with the concentration of forces on that front and what objectives are concentrated on? Nah, couldn’t be. I’ll just keep making the most bad faith interpretations possible while ignoring every other statement from the Devs. I am sure this will not end up embarrassing me when we find out what the war mechanics are in detail.
 
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War was never the main focus of Victoria 3, did you miss all the warnings in the early dev diaries? And who says this isn't a good war system? Do you know something we don't?
Something doesn't need to be the main focus the be important. I agree, it's not the main focus.

I never said it wasn't a good war system, I said, you can both want a good economic system and a good war system; which is true.
 

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Could it be that the “overall strategy” that you assign to a front has something to do with the concentration of forces on that front and what objectives are concentrated on?
There is no concentration of forces. There cannot be, since you can't assign manpower to provinces through units, you assign manpower to a frontline. The game has no way to know how much manpower is in each province since there are no units, just assigning manpower to frontlines. This is the reality that you continuously fail to accept.
Nah, couldn’t be. I’ll just keep making the most bad faith interpretations possible while ignoring every other statement from the Devs.
The devs have said the sum total of our involvement in war is assigning manpower to frontlines.
I am sure this will not end up embarrassing me when we find out what the war mechanics are in detail.
I have described them in detail. They're the only possible result of abstracting away units into "assigning manpower to frontlines".
 
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orc4hire

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Not wrong but clearly Vicky 3 is trying to make other parts of the game loop "the fun part", in that sense you can argue its no longer a wargame unlike their other titles.

The subject was map painting. I don't like map painting, but I like managing armies. Just like I like managing the economy.

Map painting without managing the armies sounds about as much fun as if they just gave us a spray-paint tool and let us literally 'paint the map.'
 
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wilcoxchar

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we wanted Total war like real time battle, not this
Very few people wanted Total War style battles. Don't mistake an extremely vocal extreme minority for a majority.
 
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ThePHD

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I hope it works out but I feel like this could backfire in a big fire way. Stellaris, HOI4, and EU4 are all hyper focused on warfare. Not even being able to micro your units is going to be a massive departure from something that has been at the core of Paradox games for a very long time now. A lot of people might not be big fans of this once the game actually comes out.
 
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Tovarits

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I have to say that this is exactly the direction I want Victoria 3 going. Not micromanaging divisions, but allocating resources and being "the government" and questioning Luigi Cadorna, what the heck is happening at the Isonzo river.
 
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Spartakusbund

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There is no concentration of forces. There cannot be, since you can't assign manpower to provinces through units, you assign manpower to a frontline. The game has no way to know how much manpower is in each province since there are no units, just assigning manpower to provinces. This is the reality that you continuously fail to accept.
You can’t concentrate forces, no. That doesn’t mean that the war mechanics can’t. Your assumption that the entire front moves at the same time is almost certainly not how it works.
The devs have said the sum total of our involvement in war is assigning manpower to frontlines.
Now we’re regressing. We already got you to admit this wasn’t true, remember?
I have described them in detail. They're the only possible result of abstracting away units into "assigning manpower to frontlines".
They, in fact, are not.
 
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Sarius1997

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What you fail to understand is that before this announcement EVERYBODY was in favour of the game. It looks to me that about 20-25% of us, the potential customers, are THOROUGHLY disappointed and the majority of us are put off from buying the game all together
BUT! For others like me this seems like something that would change Vicky from an 300-500 hours game towards my next addiction that i'll scratch for 2000+x hours
 
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