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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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LordInsanity

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I'm cautiously optimistic about this. I think that other Paradox games get too bogged down in the mechanics of warfare that they neglect peacetime activities, especially EU4, and struggle with making war strategically interesting rather than a game of "exploit the stupid AI", especially CK3. It'll be interesting to see if removing the albatross makes room for more interesting gameplay on other fronts.
I had lots of fun playing Vicky 2 even with its EU3-derived military system. And I agree that peacetime gameplay has been neglected of late.
Exactly. Paradox is perfectly capable of simulating things like differences in logistics, organization, etc. For example, if the French have inferior tactical flexibility and troop mobility to the Germans, then the Germans will have a good chance of pulling off encirclements (which would be represented as a major loss of French troops and materiel).
My position on this is that logistics and organisation can be represented and can be vital to success without losing the simulation of operational art.
My only concerns are where control of specific locations can feed back into the strategic picture. Ports are the best example, but certain resources can also play a role.
Forts, river crossings, and railway junctions were also deeply important, even in WW1. If the Germans had taken Amiens, for example, that would have been it for the French and British armies since they would have been unable to be supplied.
I do actually see where LordInsanity has something of a point. He thinks that the system won't offer much opportunity for the player to directly affect the outcome of a battle once it has begun.
And even in WW1 when battles really were giant slogfests that dragged on for months, the Battle of the Somme was started specifically to relieve the otherwise overwhelming German pressure on the critical fortress of Verdun.
And from what we've seen so far, I think he's right. However, I think this is a good thing. I want the key to winning wars to be preparation, not tactics. It's very difficult, especially in multiplayer, to both manage an ongoing war AND run a country. I'd much prefer to focus on the logistics side of things - and for the critical difference being that I seized a critical port early on, ensuring that my troops are better supplied, or that I didn't invest in oil-fired boilers because so when my enemies cut off all convenient oil supplies, I could still fuel my ships, not that I noticed that the AI left one province open because the game doesn't let you spread out a single division over multiple provinces.
Preparation and logistics are important, yes, but how is "seizing a critical port" even going to work in this system?
I do think this is a risky balancing act, and if the new system is not good enough, it could torpedo the entire game. The most frustrating experience in a GSG is to feel like you lost because a system you don't have control over acted in a nonsensical way. If players start feeling that, "I could have easily won the war if you had only let me control the armies", they will lose interest quickly.
Yes, that's what I deeply fear this will turn V3 into. Losing because you made a bad decision is one thing, losing because an automated system screwed you over is something completely different.
I think the philosophy that war is costly and dangerous is great.
Yes, the player should have an incentive to quickly win as 19th-century military thought itself found important.
Because EU4 and CK3 are so focused on war as a core gameplay experience, it feels like they're locked in to making war cheap and easy - your levies in CK3 regenerate faster than you can spend them, to allow the player to always be at war and not get bored. It's an unfortunate feedback loop that leads to peacetime tasks being neglected, or turned into more ways do more wars (e.g. making factions more and more aggressive so that you get to the "fun" part faster), and then making war less costly to accommodate. Hopefully being designed from the ground up with a different philosophy will prevent V3 from falling into the same trap.
V2 and CK2 had pretty good peacetime gameplay. I agree that EU4 overemphasises war perhaps.
 
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I had lots of fun playing Vicky 2 even with its EU3-derived military system. And I agree that peacetime gameplay has been neglected of late.

My position on this is that logistics and organisation can be represented and can be vital to success without losing the simulation of operational art.

Forts, river crossings, and railway junctions were also deeply important, even in WW1. If the Germans had taken Amiens, for example, that would have been it for the French and British armies since they would have been unable to be supplied.

And even in WW1 when battles really were giant slogfests that dragged on for months, the Battle of the Somme was started specifically to relieve the otherwise overwhelming German pressure on the critical fortress of Verdun.

Preparation and logistics are important, yes, but how is "seizing a critical port" even going to work in this system?

Yes, that's what I deeply fear this will turn V3 into. Losing because you made a bad decision is one thing, losing because an automated system screwed you over is something completely different.

Yes, the player should have an incentive to quickly win as 19th-century military thought itself found important.

V2 and CK2 had pretty good peacetime gameplay. I agree that EU4 overemphasises war perhaps.
Your assumption that the map is irrelevant to war is, once again, directly contradicted in the Dev Comments:
Provinces still play an important role in warfare still as control over them is what determines the course of frontlines and the war, but more on this in the coming weeks.
So yes, your armies will attempt to capture strategic provinces like ports, railway junctions, etc. Because why wouldn’t they! What would be the point of locating them in specific provinces to begin otherwise? What would be the point of even having specific provinces otherwise?
 
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we wanted Total war like real time battle
You did.

I don't.

Like, if I want Total War's battles, I know where to get them; the fact that I own exactly one Total War title (the first!) is perhaps indicative of my opinion of the subject.
 
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Your assumption that the map is irrelevant to war is, once again, directly contradicted in the Dev Comments:

So yes, your armies will attempt to capture strategic provinces like ports, railway junctions, etc. Because why wouldn’t they! What would be the point of locating them in specific provinces to begin otherwise? What would be the point of even having specific provinces otherwise?
You can't concentrate your forces to attack these places, because they're all spread out evenly across the frontlines, because your armies in the field have been abstracted away as assigning "manpower" to a "front". The frontlines slam into each other mindlessly with again, no actual strategy. The weaker frontline retreats and you occupy provinces as you advance. You don't need to worry about your forces being encircled, because it's all just frontlines mindlessly swinging into each other back-and-forth, back-and-forth.
 
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mineralko

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I expected something like this when it was mentioned "war is something you throw your resources into". I expect much, much less "better AI pls" threads. The direction this is going seems to be you'll be able to win almost any war, but it's one after that that will be game over.

Still, very very good choice of mechanics that can be built upon later. Can't wait to see how navies would work.
 
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You can't concentrate your forces to attack these places, because they're all spread out evenly across the frontlines, because your armies in the field have been abstracted away as assigning "manpower" to a "front". The frontlines slam into each other mindlessly with again, no actual strategy. The weaker frontline retreats and you occupy provinces as you advance. You don't need to worry about your forces being encircled, because it's all just frontlines mindlessly swinging into each other back-and-forth, back-and-forth.
Ah, so more progress. Front lines do move. Provinces and strategic locations do matter. Now all you need to do is admit that you have no evidence for the assertion that “manpower is spread out evenly across a frontline” and that “frontlines just mindlessly swing in to each other” and we can all agree that we need to wait for more information before evaluating the system (your assertion that there is no actually strategy has already been directly contradicted by the Dev Diary)
 
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In all other Paradox titles, managing war makes me neglect all other aspects.
Let’s face it, maneuvering armies and sieging provinces gets old fast in Vic and EU. Unlike CK and HOI, this kind of micro-management does not tie to the other “game pillars”, so I am glad they decided for a higher level of abstraction.
 
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View attachment 770621

Based on the reactions to the DD seems like people are actually overwhelming in favor of it.
What you fail to understand is that before this announcement EVERYBODY was in favour of the game. It looks to me that about 20-25% of us, the potential customers, are THOROUGHLY disappointed and the majority of us are put off from buying the game all together
 
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The enlighten us. You seem to know exactly how the new system works. I’d love to find out now instead of having to wait for the next few weeks of Dev diaries!
It's funny because a key word he used is "imagine" and if there's one thing I know about gamers, is that we can imagine a lot of bad when things are different. Definitely not only the "supporters" that are imagining things, given what we know of the change (almost nothing)
 

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Well, not what I would like or what I hoped for, but I can appreciate the willingness of the team to experiment and to really differentiate Vicky from other Paradox titles. Let's see how it turns out.
 
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martin_6

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Mar 10, 2012
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  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
These dev diary has 113 negative reactions and while is not the majority of the reactions, is still a lot and must be taken into account.
Honestly - it doesn't. I don't expect devs to try to please everyone. Victoria doesn't need to be a game for everyone. If someone is in love with military micromanagement, they have HOI, where it's a main focus of the game. Devs seem to have a vision of how they want the game to look like. It's risky. It can be a big disappointment if the mechanics do not make for a good game in reality. But I prefer bold moves that may pay off with really great game rather than defensive approach which would make V3 just... yet another Paradox game (I would probably play it anyway, just to make it clear ;) )
 
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