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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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One aspect of this that I am intrigued about is that it'd create a greater possibility of you getting a McClelland type of situation. A general that has a huge army that ultimately does nothing with it because he always needs more men and more supplies to deal with the ever expanding armies on the other side.

It's tough to balance that stuff out as it can be frustrating for players, but I think it could be interesting if done well. Make me spend political capital to appoint a Sherman to replace him and stuff like that hahaha.
 
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The world isn't binary, you could play Vicky for the deep political and economic systems and still wanting a good war system

War is a big part of most GSGs

And you presume that the war system won't be good, just because a few virtual pawns won't be pushed over a virtual map anymore?

Perhaps, on the contrary, this change will create an even better war system, in which strategic and logistical choices finally matter?
 
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The reason ist sadly not because you want to make a better game, but to sell the game to the biggest noobs, who will buy the game, play it 10h and throw it in the trash afterwards anyway. As a vic2 veteran, you can't tell me that you're making this change for the real vic2 fan base, who has put hundreds of hours in the game and love it. Until now I liked most things you changed, it was a development of vic2 to vic3, exactly what you should do, but you shouldn't make just a economy simulator, but a game in which you can win even against a stronger enemy with superior micro and skill. And it can't afford much skill to assign armies to a Frontline and give them a general. To make a GSG for noob players will not work, but I guess you will learn that the hard way. I'am very sorry for what you have done to the game as the complex, skill-based combat is in the end the true heart of every paradox game.
Let the HOI franchise be the wargame. Every PDX franchise should have a different feel, not just a different era covered.
 
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Will we be able to see information on how many people died through combat, disease, accidents, or who were injured, or even civilian casualties at the end of the war?
 
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The "make enemy attack in the mountains" and other "gamey" tactics well-known in the community hint at the desire of the players to "outsmart" the AI.

Would it be possible to decieve the AI in some way, say by feeding them false statistics on troop numbers so that the war doesn't even happen, or making the enemy general attack an unimportant target they thought to be significant while your army makes way for their capital? Could you cut the supply line for an enemy army and how would it affect it? Is reinforcing an army while on campaign (or during battle) possible?

How does the increasing speed of communication factor into warfare? If you have access to the telegraph while your enemy can only send their orders by horseback-riding couriers, you should be able to use your faster OODA loop to your advantage.
 
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Bold move, lets see if it pays of. While I like the idea, i am not sure how well iconic historic moments will be represented:
The german victoriy at Tannenberg 1914 and failure of the Schlieffen Plan, the Battle of Rorke's drift, the Battles of Frederickburg and Gettysburg in the ACW, ...
Could I recreate those moments and create my own legendary ones, where a genius general archieves the impossible, or an inexperienced commander struggles to adept to modern warfare?
 
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And you presume that the war system won't be good, just because a few virtual pawns won't be pushed over a virtual map anymore?

Perhaps, on the contrary, this change will create an even better war system, in which strategic and logistical choices finally matter?
I've not presume anything, I just said that telling someone that he shouldn't be playing Vicky if he wants good wars is wrong
 
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Oh. So we're finally the leader instead of the super omnipotent general... interesting. I like the reference to Lincoln and McLellan, but what about the Tsar or Emperor Napoleon III hopping to the front to engage. How will the tactical bonus or malus be represented?
 
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I love Paradox, this sounds like this take several years to get this radical departure to work. And I hope the factors that impact the game are revealed in the GUI and not something hidden that no one will ever figure out.
 

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.


The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.


The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.


The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

View attachment 770284

The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.


Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
So simplified version of hearts of iron where AI deals with most of micromanage? Is that what they are saying here or am I confused?
 
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I love this change but I have one worry. That is that I hope the game still simulates real warfare and frontlines moving. That we can see in real time how territory is changing hands, encirclements are happening, etc. I acknowledge that this will be a huge challenge for the AI, but I think this is a challenge the developers have to take if they want to make this system representative of reality and fun. So to summarize this in one sentence, please don’t turn Vic 3 war into stellaris land combat, lol. But once again, love the idea, love the departure and wish you all the luck in the world as I cannot wait for Vic 3
 
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This also opens whole new possibilities: Generals as characters, backed by parties, interest groups, even types of interests POPs, like a General Boulanger in France, or MacLellan in the Union. How can the player balance making changes in their deck of cards for the chain of command, without alienating powerful interest groups? Will the player go for competence, at the expense of running afoul of power political influences?

Also, finally peace treaties will no longer be sum-zero games. Starting from VIC3, treaties can be made while negociating concessions, compensations, and compromises to make a treaty more lenient and acceptable.
 
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But what does that actually mean? Scrolling through a list of generals and picking the guy with the best stats? Imperator Rome let you pick generals, and you had to balance that with scorned families, but in reality it mean picking the best stats character from the red/green/blue family. Investing in guns? Does anybody get excitement in Hearts of Iron IV when they click a newer gun in a dropdown menu? Fancy descriptions don't change the fact that something is just clicking some green numbers.
Hopefully the general's stats are hidden until revealed in combat.
 
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Turns out, that's pretty much all the PDX fanbase. "Map painting" is one of the big draws of GSGs.
"Map painting" and "shoving toy soldiers around the map" are separate aspects of the game.

You can have a game ruleset that lets you map paint without having toy soldiers, and you can have toy soldiers without the rules of the game letting you map paint.
 
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I strongly disagree with the - everything can be achieved diplomatically - thing.
Star seeker, you are disagreeing, then illuminate me how the allies could have talked down Nazi germany, pretty please.

Still waiting my dudes
 
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Welp that's $60 staying in my pocket. Obviously, I'm not the one developing it but one of the big draws of these games for me is troop management and since that won't be here I don't care anymore. I don't know what my expectations were for VIC 3, but I've certainly been disappointed with anything I've seen so far.

Oh well
 
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This is going to be so good! Finally a GSG that focuses on *strategy*, not cheesing the AI with armies on the operational scale!
The operational scale was critical to 19th-century warfare. The Crimean, Austro-Prussian and Franco-Prussian wars were all rapid campaigns won with quick maneuvers of forces. Outmaneuvering an on-paper superior enemy, i.e. "cheesing the AI" as you put it, was critical to all three conflicts and one of the reasons the CSA held out so long was that its generals were skilled at these sorts of operational maneuvers.
 
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