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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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Interesting, but I'm worried as to how as Norway in an independence war I can lure swedes up into the mountains to where they never return. Hope to see more of how this works soon
 
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Hmmm...now I wonder how colonial warfare will be depicted.

Well I dont mind this change in theory, Im not the type that like to micromanage armies and divisions but I do love to do all the work to sustain a war, Im an administrator.

I'm eagerly awaiting more dev diaries about war and to try out this very bold move in reality.
My current speculation is that the colonial "frontline" will have the issue of the distance of supply lines, creating a sort of "soft cap" on the assets you can deploy to that theater. Toss in stuff like tropical disease (as much of the colonial conflict of the era as in more tropical regions), and the fact that you can't just bring superior numbers to bear, and colonial conflicts could be drawn out, limited affairs where it's your technological edge and increasing logistical capacity that carry the day.
 
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Load of crap.

They took away Laissez Faire because "you're not playing as the govenrment, you're the spirit of the nation."

Now they take away combat and say "you're not the spirit of the nation, you're the government."

Maybe it will end up being good, but at least I'm not hyped for the game anymore. Until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume this will be like every other "automated" combat in games: boring as hell.

Autoresolving in Total War, planet invasions in Stellaris (well, pretty much all the combat in Stellaris), automated armies in Imperator Rome, etc.

Sure, you can have fancy description like:

"Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage?"

But what does that actually mean? Scrolling through a list of generals and picking the guy with the best stats? Imperator Rome let you pick generals, and you had to balance that with scorned families, but in reality it mean picking the best stats character from the red/green/blue family. Investing in guns? Does anybody get excitement in Hearts of Iron IV when they click a newer gun in a dropdown menu? Fancy descriptions don't change the fact that something is just clicking some green numbers.

You're playing as whatever allows them to put less work into the AI. (Or, to look at it more charitably, whatever lets them best cover up the AI's weaknesses.)

The AI can't make good decisions about what factories to build? You're the spirit of the nation and get to build whatever factories you want, because "we'll never reduce the player's choices." The AI gets clobbered in combat because it can't manage armies as well as the player? Warfare is all abstract now, and you don't get to manage your armies.
 
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the responses in this thread are so confusing with people making assumptions based on nothing or just outright ignoring dev responses contradicting them.

People saying the AI will control units - there are no units, AI isn't controlling anything, Wiz already commented on this, so why keep crying about it?
Saying it's like a mobile game - You don't even know how it works so how can you compare it to mobile games? What does this even mean?
 
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This may be appropriate for a later dev diary, in which case consider it a question in advance: Take the American Civil War. How much are we going to hate our McClellans? I want to hate my McClellans. I want to hate them a lot.
 
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Not gonna lie, this is bold. If it is done right, it can be refreshing for PDX games that often repeat a single, old formula. If, however, too much agency is removed from the player or the system is too abstract or based too much on RNG, it has the potential to backfire.
 
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man, this is probably going to be THE controversy of victoria 3. in the age of EMPIRE not having the ability to smash apart the world map with an unstoppable army backed up by an unfathomable industrial empire is going to turn away SO many potential customers. hope y'all gamble work. im out!
Wouldn't this be the opposite though? It seems this change should make us playing little Serbia and being able to solo both Germany and Austria-Hungary improbable - if not impossible. Our immaculately built industrial empires will go a long way in building an unstoppable force.
 
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On the contrary: By removing fine army manoeuvre control, it becomes more focused on the strategic and logistic layers of warfare rather than the operational layer.

Yeah, reading through the comments, people are assuming that they have pulled out moving individual units around the map, then replaced that with ... nothing.

Why would they do that?

Let's analyze what the developers might be thinking for a second. Suppose they are sitting around a table discussing the warfare system.

Someone says, "We could just do the same thing that we always do. That would be really easy. Just port over the old mechanics."

Someone else replies, "Yeah, but that would prevent us from doing <something really cool>. I think it would be worth redesigning the entire system from the ground up so as to have <something really cool>."

Shouldn't that be the working assumption at the moment? That if they are going to put a ton of time and effort into an entire new warfare system, then there is a good reason. The lazy, easy thing to do would have been to keep the EU/CK system. Right?

We will see.
 
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Hopefully this turns off the HoI4/EU4 meme map-painting crowd.
Turns out, that's pretty much all the PDX fanbase. "Map painting" is one of the big draws of GSGs.

Still, one can wait. When the low sales happen, they'll reverse face. A major patch will overhaul the game to add in a proper military system. All will be well with the world.
 
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I'll save my skepticism for screenshots and details about how this actually works. It sounds good in theory, but since this is a new mechanic to the Paradox Studio games it's hard to make an objective opinion without it being conjecture. Will be looking closely at next dev diary to see how 'Fronts' work.
 
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lingo74

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Honestly an incredibly bold design choice, will have to see more of course. But if you’re able to nail the strategic decision making of this then the sky is the limit with the variety and types of war you could simulate. Especially the major shifts in warfare this time period covers, also goes without saying that paradox games have never covered asymmetric warfare particularly well so once again this has immense potential.
 
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Bane5

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While everyone is focused on the micro vs no-micro issue, has anyone else pointed out that we got concept art for an armored train under the "war changes" section? It was a huge part of later-era warfare in Eastern Europe, Manchuria/China, and colonial warfare in the early 20th century.
 
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