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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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This warfare model is certainly ambitious and could end up being very impressive... if the AI can handle it. If the AI can’t handle it, it will be an unmitigated disaster.

Paradox customers been burned before when it comes to AI quality. Please don’t put it on the backburner!
 
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GeneralUrist

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The glorious tradition of always winning against AI thanks to micromanagement? Yes please!, let it end!
The tradition of winning against a superior force through your better capacity for clever decision making. If the new system does not have something similar (even if not quite so exploitable) then war will be an unsatisfying numbers game.
 
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wilcoxchar

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I don't think you understood the War dev diary: what Wiz is trying to tell you is that there is nothing to see...
There is no war in Ba Sing Se Dev Diary #22.
 
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Acularius

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Can I assign multiple frontlines to an enemy, or group of enemy nations?

To use a classic example:
Can I assign a rather conservative, defensive frontline against France on the French/German Border and an offensive and aggressive frontline through Belgium and France from the German-Belgian border?
 

Ffc

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They are literally building an entirely new system from the ground up instead of copy-pasting their tried and true formula. That is the total opposite of neglect.
It clearly depends on how it is done; and since we don't have much info, we can't know for now.

If it's just Hoi4 supply and frontline system but more abstract, it would actually kinda be neglected.
 
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unmerged(760025)

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I'm rather worried about what I just read.
An abstract system for war runs into the risk of making it feels unfair for the player when they lose because of the AI.
I can't say that I like the direction the devs seems to be taking this towards, an AI run warfare system just doesn't really appeal to me, it doesn't sound very engaging. But I will wait until next week before making a final decision.

But yeah right now all I can think about is that I will probably not uninstall Victoria 2 from my PC after all. Because there is a significant chance that I will continue to play it for quite some time. :(
 
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TempestM

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Funny that by making AI smarter... they could make the game less fun without manual control. Because with manual control you can fell smarter yourself by outplaying smart AI, but when two AI battle... well, that can backfire if enemy AI is stronger than yours and it just keeps winning :D We need more details sooo much
 
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Load of crap.

They took away Laissez Faire because "you're not playing as the govenrment, you're the spirit of the nation."

Now they take away combat and say "you're not the spirit of the nation, you're the government."

Maybe it will end up being good, but at least I'm not hyped for the game anymore. Until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume this will be like every other "automated" combat in games: boring as hell.

Autoresolving in Total War, planet invasions in Stellaris (well, pretty much all the combat in Stellaris), automated armies in Imperator Rome, etc.

Sure, you can have fancy description like:

"Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage?"

But what does that actually mean? Scrolling through a list of generals and picking the guy with the best stats? Imperator Rome let you pick generals, and you had to balance that with scorned families, but in reality it mean picking the best stats character from the red/green/blue family. Investing in guns? Does anybody get excitement in Hearts of Iron IV when they click a newer gun in a dropdown menu? Fancy descriptions don't change the fact that something is just clicking some green numbers.
 
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I believe one way that a fully automated system could be fun, is if the player gets real feedback on what is going on in the battlefield.
Instead of the battlefield being represented by a glorified health bar with modifiers, there would be actual units moving around, making frontlines, attacking each other, encircling and sieging cities. Nothing abstract, the war would be fully represented by that. Just like a RTS game, except the units themselves are automated and the player makes decisions elsewhere.
This is an opportunity to get away from the province-based warfare system like in HOI4, and allow for a more dynamic warfare. There wouldn't be provinces for units to stand on, they move like in real life, like in a RTS game, instead of teleporting from one province to the other. I'd see that as a huge improvement over past games, and would represent a new era of warfare in Pdox games.

I really hope the warfare system won't be a glorified health bar with modifiers, that'd be a VIC3 killer for me. It has to be something dynamic and well represented.
 

Son Of Perdition

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I guess I'm a little worried about the whole favor of wars with this. Like the system seems really interesting and I can't wait to see and hear more about how it works. But I can't be the only one who likes pausing to see what divisions are responsible for taking or defending key points or watching my "King's Own" army win a battle they were outnumbered in. Plus just the mental narrative that comes with focusing on certain pushes in certain areas and the story of the tactical level.

But it does sound cool none the less. Hopefully there will be other brands of flavor with a system like this. I really wish stellaris had something like this.
 

LordInsanity

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It is now a proper GSG.
Moving armies around the map on your own isn't strategic it is operational. So now we can finally concentrate on the strategy instead of micromanagin tactical or operational decisions

Have fun watching a bunch of bars slowly fill up as you click menu buttons. Scintillating, isn't it?
 
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My lord. I'm really blown away. The Victoria 3 team have shown, at every turn during these dev diaries, a sense of bold and innovative vision that does justice to my most beloved franchise. This is just the icing on the cake, for me (some very exceptional icing, at that).

Of course, all the vision in the world can't save a poor implementation, so much remains to be seen, but we are definitely on the right track to a worthy successor.
 
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5687VB

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Load of crap.

They took away Laissez Faire because "you're not playing as the govenrment, you're the spirit of the nation."

Now they take away combat and say "you're not the spirit of the nation, you're the government."

Maybe it will end up being good, but at least I'm not hyped for the game anymore. Until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume this will be like every other "automated" combat in games: boring as hell.

Autoresolving in Total War, planet invasions in Stellaris (well, pretty much all the combat in Stellaris), automated armies in Imperator Rome, etc.

Sure, you can have fancy description like:

"Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage?"

But what does that actually mean? Scrolling through a list of generals and picking the guy with the best stats? Imperator Rome let you pick generals, and you had to balance that with scorned families, but in reality it mean picking the best stats character from the red/green/blue family. Investing in guns? Does anybody get excitement in Hearts of Iron IV when they click a newer gun in a dropdown menu? Fancy descriptions don't change the fact that something is just clicking some green numbers.
Good point! We are the spirit of the nation and the government but neither at the same time. :confused:
 
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Sigismund der Münzreiche

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To start off on a positive note, I would say that I enjoy things like supply production, Officer training and allocation of Commanders for all levels in Hoi3 and I like equipment management and frontlines in Hoi4. So there are some good things here. However... The fact that everythings seems to be abstracted to such a high level were you cannot interact with what your armies do and in fact they aren't even on the map at all seems like it's going to be not engaging and very frustrating and boring for the player. The devs and people who seem to like this idea say this is more "strategic" I don't find that very strategic. To me it's more like making sure the ai gets everything it needs to have it's own strategy. I wonder how that will work out in practice. I wonder how the Prussian ai army is supposed to crush the french in 1871, I wonder how the ai is supposed to come up with a Schlieffen Plan.. or if actuall "Plans" even exist. From what we read here it sounds like you put a front the enemy puts up a front, some numbers do some math magic and someone wins in a state and someone loses. I don't know.
 
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wilcoxchar

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Have fun watching a bunch of bars slowly fill up as you click menu buttons. Scintillating, isn't it?
You mean I can finally have some actual fun managing an economy or guiding and reacting to demographic and political changes in my country instead of having to be dragged away from it just to move tiny sprites around a map like an old point and click adventure? Yes please!
 
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