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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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As a modder and a fearful player of these new mechanics I was wondering if we could disable and enable this. Like say we dont like generals controlling out divisipns so we creste a hoi4 esque micro system.

Would it be possible to disable and enable generals controlling our armies ?
AND.
Would it be possible to create out own mechanic ?

In the sense that if we wsnt something that feels more like HOI3/VIC2 where you micro stacks of units or HOI4 where you have the option of a frontline or manually micro.
 
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Yes! Omg yes this is even better than I have imagined it. I am beyond hyped, I am ultra'd out of my mind. Waging war primarily through your economy and through strategic planning as the head of state, not a fieldgeneral, amazing, truly amazing.
I mean, take for example Hitler, he led the country and the war, but he was not personally at the eastern front making tactical descisions, he laid down a strategy, said which army goes where and that's it.

You get a hundred thumbs ups from me.
 
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We get it. Vic3 is not a map painter. It's not like EU4 or HoI4 where everything revolves around warfare, and that's good. But to neglect warfare to this extent is not only silly, it's almost a little bit insulting to the player's intelligence.
They are literally building an entirely new system from the ground up instead of copy-pasting their tried and true formula. That is the total opposite of neglect.
 
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In military thinking there are three levels : tactical, operational and strategic. I hope the "assign troops to frontlines" means that we still have control of the operational level, not only strategic
 
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an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.​
The reason ist sadly not because you want to make a better game, but to sell the game to the biggest noobs, who will buy the game, play it 10h and throw it in the trash afterwards anyway. As a vic2 veteran, you can't tell me that you're making this change for the real vic2 fan base, who has put hundreds of hours in the game and love it. Until now I liked most things you changed, it was a development of vic2 to vic3, exactly what you should do, but you shouldn't make just a economy simulator, but a game in which you can win even against a stronger enemy with superior micro and skill. And it can't afford much skill to assign armies to a Frontline and give them a general. To make a GSG for noob players will not work, but I guess you will learn that the hard way. I'am very sorry for what you have done to the game as the complex, skill-based combat is in the end the true heart of every paradox game.
 
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The problem Endless Legend had was that 'abstracting the player control over combat' amounted to, 'oh yeah this tactical layer is still there but you get to watch the AI mess it up' instead of meaningfully making different mechanics from other 4x games about it. I highly doubt the mechanics involve individual regiments running around on the map for you to watch the AI mess up, judging by previous PDX comments.
Why? Evidence for your assertion?
 
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crackpot is correct? holy crack, that will destroy the game, not kidding.
it betrayed the tradition of Paradox...
Ah the good old PDX Tradition of chasing enemy armies around the map, never really catch them while 3 other armies wrecking your country.
I am glad its gone
 
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My first reaction were disappointment but after I read some of the replies I will give it a fair chance.

I just hope it won't be a slider warfare where I have to assinge troops to fronts like it's done in Hoi 4 with planes.
 
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Let me start with saying that I have played virtually every single paradox game since Rome. I cannot understand why you would pivot away from player controlled combat. I mean kudos for trying something new. But this feels like you just took a pc game and turned it into a mobile game. My biggest fear is that there is no adrenaline left in the gameplay. Sure, the economy and internal intrigue part might be good, but nothing gets your blood going as controlling your units. If you have not, I highly recommend consulting a psychologist on what gives satisfaction to a player. The most followed sports are where the adrenaline is high. The most successful pc games are where the adrenaline is high. Is it really going to be satisfying to actually be in war? How is it going to be different from just managing your country in times of peace? Is war going to be a meaningful experience or just something you look at with your hands off the keyboard? I’m scared there might not be any “excitement”.

I understand some people liked the crackpot theory because the ai is too easy to exploit. That’s valid. But this leads to me asking how this change impacts multiplayer where that isn’t a factor? Managing units against a human player is a lot more fun. Your two most popular games on steam, eu4 and hoi4 have a large multiplayer community, and these games rely a lot on player unit control for combat. I’m worried you are removing a large aspect of your game that this player base loves. I know I’m one of them, and where as before I was 100% going to buy the game, I’m now going to hold off untill I know for sure the system is fun enough.

Sorry for the long post, love you all.
 
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They are literally building an entirely new system from the ground up instead of copy-pasting their tried and true formula. That is the total opposite of neglect.
Just because you do something differently does not mean you are not neglecting it, warfare in Vic3 will probably be just an afterthought for many players since you can achieve things more efficiently with diplomacy rather than with war since you will lose part of your workforce and have economic penaltys in war.
 
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PDX really needs to reconsider this. It's such a bad idea.
 
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I don't know. I might be totally wrong here but maybe or I hope at least, it will be similar to how Suzerain handled the war part.
Obviously they are two different games, but I liked how in Suzerain it's all diplomatics and some decisions you made really early would affect the war later, once it broke out or was about to break out.

Was the military well funded or not, what fronts did you defend, did you have any allies etc.

I hope it will be similar to that. Other than that. I hope we'll se some gameplay before the end of the year, I doubt it though :(

Have a nice weekend everyone!
 
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Victoria 3 is no longer a GSG. It is now equivalent to any other knockoff mobile game.
It is now a proper GSG.
Moving armies around the map on your own isn't strategic it is operational. So now we can finally concentrate on the strategy instead of micromanagin tactical or operational decisions
 
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grommile

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Victoria 3 is no longer a GSG. It is now equivalent to any other knockoff mobile game.
On the contrary: By removing fine army manoeuvre control, it becomes more focused on the strategic and logistic layers of warfare rather than the operational layer.
 
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Word_Smith

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This warfare model is certainly ambitious and could end up being very impressive... if the AI can handle it. If the AI can’t handle it, it will be an unmitigated disaster.

Paradox customers been burned before when it comes to AI quality. Please don’t put it on the backburner!
 
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