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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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Oh for crying out loud. NOBODY likes micro-managing hundreds of units across dozens of fronts. Of course warfare changed from large pitched battles between roaming armies in the early 19th century to vast defensive fronts in WW1. But removing units entirely? This is literally the worst decision I have ever seen a Paradox developer make, and boy have you guys made a lot of them - Stellaris or Imperator on release, anyone?

I can't see any way in which this system could be workable. The more agency you take away from the player, the more unfair losing can feel. If you lose because it's your fault, it's part of the fun. If you lose because an extremely abstract system is modelling an extremely complex and VITAL part of gameplay, then it is not fun.

I can see individual units most likely being added in some form to the game before release. If you really want to die on this hill then they'll most likely be added in some kind of update (god forbid, an overpriced DLC).

We get it. Vic3 is not a map painter. It's not like EU4 or HoI4 where everything revolves around warfare, and that's good. But to neglect warfare to this extent is not only silly, it's almost a little bit insulting to the player's intelligence.
 
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Well hopefully AI is leaps and bounds ahead of all other paradox titles by a significant margin if I am not controlling my own units.
It should depend on competence of generals. I imagine incompetents assigned to satisfy landowners interest group, I hope that it could be catastrophe :)

The whole system sounds great!
 
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I like the idea of not being in control of everything military. I always imagined myself as the houses of parliament, not a general. It seems to me sensible, like how in HoI4 I am not a naval commander. I say where fleets should go, but the rest is down to who I delegate responsibility to.

Couple questions.

Can the ai see you moving troops to the border and guess at your intentions? Will they mobilise or move troops to cover? Will it affect relations suddenly?

Does mobilising affect ai decisions in plays? - if you're having a play will they see mobilisation and take it into account?

Toward the end of this time frame sees the league of nations, will there be any mechanics for similar bodies?

Thanks
 
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Well my main Question would be why we even have provinces? I mean you cannot take just a few of them and split it into a new state, you dont have armies to march through them and while I could see frontlines movig along provinces I think even then there are a bit more allegent solutions. Pops are only simulated on state level and stuff like population or industrial output of citys is also handled on state level, so even if frontlines move up it will still not really matter as I understand it, what provinces are taken, you will lose the same amount of stuff regardless ...

Unless you are going to tell us, that man y of the things like resources and factories do get placed into provinces, just taht we dont interact with them on taht level (like ethnicity of population etc. also beeing represented on a province leve just not interacted with). If thats not the case I woudl really like to know why you are still keeping provinces ^^"
 
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So far the reaction can be boiled down to a few types.

There are the overly optimistic and positive response to this very prima facie overview of what war will be like
"everything I could have hoped for and more." (how could you know, really?)

The equally way-too-overly-assertive "i'm disappointed" negative response. (Disappointed about what? We really don't know anything yet other than you won't have to micro 500 units across a 200 wide front anymore)

And finally (really the only rational response to this sudden departure in design from previous paradox GSG) uncertainty. And with that perhaps weary caution because it is a new system, and/or cautious excitement also because it is a new system.

We will not know anything more for a solid week, and there really isn't anything solid here to quibble about. Oh but quibble we will, won't we. I feel like giving this little info on something so drastic is ill-advised, but perhaps they don't mind an... energetic... forum.
 
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Well hopefully AI is leaps and bounds ahead of all other paradox titles by a significant margin if I am not controlling my own units.
yeah "we want players to win by being more cunning in diplomacy than their enemy"

lets hope the AI has some actual diplomacy in their brain then, rather than the Paradox classic "AI never agrees to cede territory without escalation to total war, not matter how outmatched militarily or economically it is", combined with "The AI always focuses on stopping the player over anybody else, and so hugboxes them at every occasion"

in other games this was surmountable because the player was better at using their units and so could beat the AI even if they had more troops/allies; but since this game is just "assign bodies to front, game decides how many die", it just feels like a *major* issue of "start game as biggest nation, or be very quickly hugboxed with no mechanic to actually have agency with"
 
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I can totally picture this being an ideal representation of WWI, with the battlefield consuming enormous amounts of men and materiel. But how will something like the American Civil War be represented?
 
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Im excited about the opportunities for game play and careful strategy and imersion this innovation can bring if done right. I was always gamey that a player army was so much better then anyone else allowing tiny countries to win. And I love Vicky 2 but industry felt disconnected to military power which I felt was a weakness.
Will battles still happen? ie. Specific places where armies are clashing?
Also some wars where decided by maneuver in this period such as the Franco-Prussian war so how will that play out? Will I just suddenly win/lose or will every war be protracted?
 

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I hope the dev team understands that although war is a continuation of diplomacy, it being a good system where the player is directly involved has been a staple of Pdx GSG ever since it's most humble beginnings, and Vicky 3 is the most anticipated Paradox game right now.

This is a big thing to change and the new system MUST provide as much if not more fun to the player ON RELEASE than other paradox games. Not just a shabby system that is then made better through DLCs years down the line.

As others have mentioned, army 'tokens' have always been the players direct involvement into the fancy board game that are paradox games. You are now radically moving away from this to provide a completely simulated game and this is very very big.
 
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For this new system to work, the player must be able to win even as an inferior country through the use of clever strategy. Does a player have enough influence to affect the outcome of a war? When war is so expensive, it can lead to a so-called Pyrus victory. Germany gets Alsace Lotrigeen from France but has lost so many soldiers that it cannot recover? And finally. Are there special mechanics for the World War?
 
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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.


The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.


The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.


The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

View attachment 770284

The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.


Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
Naturally this begs the question about rebel mechanics. I don't mind the changes. Armies were not really used for most nations most of the game. When you did use them it was like whack a mole. Sounds interesting this way.
 
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Cora Giantkiller

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This sounds like a pretty big swing. Can't wait to see how the system ends up working.
 
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