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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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While this all sounds good, I genuinely don't trust PDX to execute it well at launch, especially with 0 info on how this new system actually works. I'm skeptical for now.
 
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MrNoobomnenie

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For me personally warfare was always the least interesting part of all Paradox games, which I've generally tried to avoid doing at all, so I'm very hyped for such radical changes!
Also, if the system will end up working well, it would fit perfectly into a potential Cold War game/mod!
 
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Very expected possibility but also something that will be very polarizing. Guess we'll see how well they pull it off. I doubt the people who wanted HoI4 or more complex combat will be happy no matter how good the system is just due to the fun of personally managing troops around.

Will be very interesting to see the degree of control you will have and how the warfare is shown. I really like the concept behind the abstraction and how it might encourage strategic play and make the AI more competent but I also just enjoy seeing armies and moving them about. Just a lovely tactility that might not be there if warfare is abstracted more.

I'm not super worried for my own interest as I'm mostly in it for the economy / diplomacy but I could see a stilted warfare be something that could make the game more niche than it needs to be. But hey, I guess we'll see as it all depends on how good the system actually is! (except for the HoI boys who won't like the direction at all)
 
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With my obligatory ork posts out of the way. Huge risk by Paradox. Huge risk. The biggest question you have to ask is this: Will this system be any greater than the one that came before it?

The problem with with this I can see is that a lot of nations become unplayable due to big countries enforcing their will on all smaller countries without any ability for you to influence it. I can see the design flow that Wiz is bringing into this game and I am intrigued by it. However, this could go very poorly if it doesn't hit the ground running and if it isn't fun. When I look at some of my favorite moments in the past games, it's all about famous battles and troop k/d ratios. It's about small countries standing up against impossible odds and due to the actions of great generals, excellent tactical plans, or just plain luck everything pulls through and the small country wins.

What absolutely must not happen is that war in this game turns into an automatic "YOU LOSE" button. And really, I'm just speculating without a lot of information because this is basically an announcement of the design decision behind war. An art of which I very much love. I'll wait for more information. While I like the Victoria 2 way of doing things and I'm glad that Victoria 3 isn't going the direction of HOI4, I am open to see what Wiz has in store.

I trust him. He wants to do something unique. And honestly, I appreciate the courage in doing that over settling into the old ways just because it's familiar. Can't wait to see what he has in store.
 
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I really can't think of a single conflict in this timeframe where great generalship won the war rather than doctrine, geography, economics etc. If it covered the Napoleonic Wars it would be different. So I like this change. I hope there's a lot of options to customize your army so the player retains some agency.
 
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crackpot is correct? holy crack, that will destroy the game, not kidding.
it betrayed the tradition of Paradox...
Traditions are only traditions because of inertia. Good design thinking and real innovation requires reevaluation even long established traditions from time to time and if they are no longer useful or good, experimenting with discarding them and creating new traditions.
 
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It feels a bit rough to announce something so controversial without at least giving a bit more details or a screen about how it looks/works overall

"We changed a huge thing about a game you're very involved in, now wait a Week or two to know if you're gonna like it or not"

If it's a very well thought system with deep decisions, I could see myself enjoying it; but at first, removing individual units looks a bit like you made wars more superficial, less important. Instead of having both strategical and tactical decisions, you now have only strategical ones, which would be a downgrade. If it does add strategic decisions; why not but your decisions have to be and feel really meaningful.
 
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Respectfully my friend, that's one hell of a conspiracy theory.
That's not too deep though. His whole "I'm very confident" was based on one screenshot saying "Strategic Region" and that's it. And we know that Strategic Regions are diplomatic play thing, not warfare. So he figured out almost entire system correctly without even real evidence? I can totally see paradox telling him "we won't have manual control" beforehand
 
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Honestly I buy it. Political parties have leaks like this and it's often intentional.
I remember some users with low post count making vibe checks for EU:Rome 2 and CK3 on the forums way before these games were even announced.

And some obscure users asking for this system when the game was announced. So its a possibility. Maybe Devs do these things to see how we will react to new things.
 
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As a player that has always favoured economy and diplomacy over war micromanagement, I am delighted seeing this design vision. For me this will be far more roleplayable too, as I wouldn't be in charge of every single army. I am eager to learn the details!
 
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Since they were mentioned, I am curious how incompetent generals like Conrade Von Hotzendorf or Enver Pasha will be represented. I hope their difference in skill vs a good general will actually manifest as them more frequently doing dumb shit like attacking mountains in winter, rather than just having a "utter idiot: -20 attack skill" modifier or such.

Relatedly, I hope you can still see clearly WHEN a big battle is happening vs when the front is quiet- that one big engagement where you kill half the enemy's army is among the most satisfying moments in Paradox game warfare.
 
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Hmmm...now I wonder how colonial warfare will be depicted.

Well I dont mind this change in theory, Im not the type that like to micromanage armies and divisions but I do love to do all the work to sustain a war, Im an administrator.

I'm eagerly awaiting more dev diaries about war and to try out this very bold move in reality.
 
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kinderschlager

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man, this is probably going to be THE controversy of victoria 3. in the age of EMPIRE not having the ability to smash apart the world map with an unstoppable army backed up by an unfathomable industrial empire is going to turn away SO many potential customers. hope y'all gamble work. im out!
 
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alanschu

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Was a bit eyebrow raised when I heard about not tactical control, but quickly realized I was just imagining current PDX with automated armies.

I'm intrigued. I think it's probably the biggest "risky" decision the game has thus far, but we will see how it goes. I'm open to it but I understand for a lot that a change like this is the type of thing that makes people anxious.

Hopefully it works out of course!
 
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