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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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This is true for me as well. I often skip wars and just tag switch to determine victor and what provinces change hands in EU. If they can make war fun through this system, WOW! The game will be my favorite by a gigantic margin.

It feels like Paradox is designing Vic3 for me personally. Does anyone else feel this way?
I'm seeing a lot of things for which I hopes, but I'll still be nostalgic for the tech tree and CON/MIL/PLU
 

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Just like they can't instantly exercise all political and economical decisions with one click, yet you still would do that in the game
You must not have read the political and economic dev diaries, because it was pretty clear that changing laws, constructing buildings, educating pops, etc. all take time to do.
 
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Gotta say bravo, @Wizzington, not just because I *think* I will like this better than the heavily micro-intensive warfare that I just find tedious after awhile in other PDS games (save perhaps HOI where that is the entire point) but the sheer brazenness and confidence to make this decision. There is no doubt, and I'm sure you are expecting, that some people will HATE it because they primarily play PDS games to maneuver their troops around and paint the map. Those folks are also probably over-represented in the forums. You are going to get a flood of extreme negativity and kudos again to you and to PDS for having the guts to do it.

Implemented well I do think this help solve a ton of problems that bedevil most PDS games--late game performance due to massive numbers of units on the map, tactical AI stupidity, crazy player exploits, the sheer difficulty of paying attention to anything else going on in your country while a war is ongoing (Johan famously said about EU that players just drop everything when they are at war so he was against implementing mechanics that required lots of detailed, on-going attention), and the boredom that comes with being a vastly superior force and having to chase down little armies everywhere followed up by mass sieges (or whatever) to capture provinces.

You do lose the thrill of a close fight against a superior foe--in theory. Exactly how this is implemented will have a lot to do with how much, but even so, I for one will not miss the frantic micro that goes into a successful campaign in PDS games.
 
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This seems fun and an interesting idea, but I guess also unexpected. It is such a drastic change, I feel many players don't want to learn a completely new system.
 
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You must not have read the political and economic dev diaries, because it was pretty clear that changing laws, constructing buildings, educating pops, etc. all take time to do.
Wrong, they take time to implement after deciding to do them. To do them you still need just to click a button, and then wait

That's the same thing as manually controlling an army, you click on province and they take time to go there, and take time to finish the battle.
It's all game abstraction

---
Since no one who disagreed actually answered why, I assume they never read the diary just like OP. The decision to change law or construct buildings IS instant. Having "time to do it" doesn't make the decision not instant. Every strategy has some building, recruiting, upgrading time, it's still done with few clicks
 
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i expected that the land fronts will work quite similarly to HOI4 naval system - you assing your troops to some strategic regions and decide how in general they will act in that area.

and I still wonder if that will be the case
 
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I'm over the moon, this is going to be great.

I think I probably win 95% of all wars across all PDS GSGs because it is just so easy to cheese the AI (moving in mountains, waiting until the other side is movement locked and then reinforcing, cycling units, etc.). This adds a whole extra element that you can't just cheese the AI to get out of a sticky situation.
 
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I just hope the war fronts are small enough so there's still some room for outplaying an opponent, like making a large thrust at some unexpected place or some type of encirclement. Having played a lot of Victoria 2 recently I can say that something definitely needed to change for the warfare. It's just not fun to micro a lot of units all over the world, this becomes especially tedious when you have colonies all over the world. The AI can obviously pay attention to everything at the same time while me as a player often lose whole stacks just because I wasn't focused on a certain area. This type of hyper attention required for troop movement in Victoria 2 just doesn't fit with a game that should be a lot about domestic politics, so this new design philosophy might very well be a good solution to this problem.
 
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im looking forward to multiplayer where either the AI attacks into deeply entrenched positions killing millions without me being able to do anything about it or waiting for anything to happen since you can't bring the AI to attack in a favorable place

atleast me and my homies will suffer together
 
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Warfare in Paradox GSGs has traditionally been one of the few places where a player can, so to speak, feel that their focus and presence is manifested in a concrete way in the world with some level of active engagement using the army or fleet as a proxy for them being right there.

Albeit there are other ways it could be argued this happens in PDX GSGs, but without this very key means of a player feeling they can manifest their actions directly and intimately in the game world: what do you, Wiz, think will be the key means the game will achieve this particular kind of engagement.

Understand, if your answer is that the game won't provide that, OK, that's your answer. But I want to be clear that nothing to date in any single dev diary you have published answers this emotional proxy-involvement in the world in quite the way that armies or fleets or personalities being moved around and taking actions would.

Is the answer generals and wait until next week? In which case, OK, we'll see, but if they're like HOI4 generals without the actual armies then I'll be very sceptical that you grasp what you're really removing from this game.

Maybe the answer will be agents that you move around? Maybe the answer will be something else. But putting it simply: if the player has literally no "counters", "tokens" or what have you, "ME-eples" if you like, to move and act with around the map in this game then I think you're going to have a problem with this game down the line.

You will get a lot of people focusing on combat and armies in the feedback here. I'm not protesting on that specific case. I'm asking if you've really taken into account the emotional engagement issue that I would argue lies behind the fears you're seeing expressed.
 
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No they gave him inside information. There's no way he called it. They've been giving him the dev diaries early. They had him plant the idea in the community so there wouldn't be as volatile of a response.
This is crackpot theory 2.0 right here :)))
 
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The first pillar is ... War is a Continuation of Diplomacy
The second pillar, War is Strategic,​
The third pillar, War is Costly,
The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key,
The fifth pillar, Navies Matter,
The sixth and final pillar, War Changes,
With such a radical departure from previous norms, I feel like one extra pillar would go a long way into making strategic warfare more interesting: Intelligence & Deception.

Maybe it might be better suited for a DLC or maybe some mechanics can be part of the base game, but if war is fought on a strategic level, a lot of conflicts are going to feel very much deterministic and solved in some way. One thing to note is that strategic planners often don't have perfect information. Once the shooting starts, big surprises often happen whether it be that the enemy army was much bigger than expected, some new tank was developed that can't be penetrated, or secret alliances were in place which escalates the war to a much bigger scale (think secret treaties that escalated ww1).

The game would be full of upsets if we could deceive opponents in some way about a nation's capabilities, whether it be hiding secrets or purposely sending misleading information.
 
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RaccoonCity

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plz at least release a picture to let us see....
I don't think you understood the War dev diary: what Wiz is trying to tell you is that there is nothing to see...

Jokes aside, my opinion is:
- If it's going to be something similar to HOI4 warfare with automatic frontlines, I think it's awesome and a fantastic decision.
- If it's going to be something like the crackpot theory where you just asign troops to strategic regions... then I'm not sure if it's a good decision at all.
 
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CountCristo

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Bold as hell - let's see how it goes!
 
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Constantijn2

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This new system better be really bloody good.
Because "no units on the map" is a huge negative in my book.

If it was like HoI4 where you assign units to fronts but you can still move individual troops I'd still not be very excited, but I could live with it.

I'm awaiting the next DD about this system with low expectations. Please prove me wrong, Paradox.
 
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schnizzle

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This is a great change as it solves so many problems before they could even pop up. I once wrote a post on here how impossible it would be to do combat justice that changes so much from start to finish of a campaign. I genuinely think it is better to avoid these problems by abstracting war fully to the strategical and logistical level instead of having Vicky become an unsatisfactory tactics simulator. Even though I fully understand why many are upset about this. But solving the war issue like this is very much in line with the vision of the game the devs laid out since the very fist glimpses on the development. Now it only needs to be implemented correctly.

If there's just one thing I can wish for is that there's meaty content and mechanics for interactions between the highest political level (the player) and the highest military level. Attitude towards the general staff and vice versa, how much they are allowed, how loyal they are and how much you can influence their structure is both an important issue of managing a state and would make for a great mechanic and some possibly great and immersive stories (think Hindenburg and Ludendorff effectively taking control of Germany during WW1)
I'm not talking about assigning individual figures to frontlines or theatres, I'm not even sure that this would be nescessary, but making sure the gerneal staff is neither too powerful to threaten your leadership not too weak to do their job. They really shouldn't hate you, but if they love you too much, you're probably a dictator. There could be dozens upon dozens of events influencing all these factors. Same with the navy in countries like the UK and Imperial Japan. The board of admirals demands resources or a certain number of ships to maintain hegemony or they'll support an opposing candidate or hurt you in some other way. Fleshed out mechanics like this would immediately elevate Vicky3 to my top 3 games of all time.
 
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TempestM

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im looking forward to multiplayer where either the AI attacks into deeply entrenched positions killing millions without me being able to do anything about it or waiting for anything to happen since you can't bring the AI to attack in a favorable place

atleast me and my homies will suffer together
Ultimate LARP. Is it even a true war between homies-monarch if you do not waste millions lives for your whims and thanks to incompetent commanders :cool:
 
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