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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #21 - Diplomatic Plays

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It’s Thursday again and you know what that means - another Diplomacy dev diary! Today’s dev diary is one I’ve been looking forward to writing for some time, as it covers Diplomatic Plays, which we consider to be more or less the signature feature for Diplomacy in Victoria 3.

So what are Diplomatic Plays? Well, to answer that question, I’m going to reach all the way back to Dev Diary #0 and one of the four game design pillars, namely Diplomatic Eminence. That pillar reads as follows: War is a continuation of diplomacy, and everything that is achievable by war should also be achievable through diplomacy (even if that diplomacy sometimes comes at the point of a gun).

Well, diplomacy at the point of a gun is exactly what Diplomatic Plays are, as they allow you to try to achieve any objective normally achievable by war by diplomatically maneuvering to force the other side to give it to you without a fight. To fully explain what I mean by that, we’ll go over the mechanics of Diplomatic Plays in sequence - how they start, how they play out, and finally how they are resolved.

The way Diplomatic Plays start is the way you would normally start a war in another Paradox Grand Strategy Game - by demanding something from another country, for example that they cede a particular state to you. In fact, unlike other GSGs, Victoria 3 has no ‘declare war’ button to get what you demand - instead you start a Diplomatic Play, and wars are always preceded by Diplomatic Plays.

The fourteen opening moves currently available as Diplomatic Plays, each corresponding with a war goal. As usual, the number in green indicates the number of possible valid targets that exist for that Play.
DD21 1v2.png

Once a Diplomatic Play is started, there’s a number of things that happen immediately. First, the country that is being targeted is of course notified, along with any countries that are considered Potential Participants in the play. Who is considered a potential participant depends on the exact nature of the play, but usually it includes any country with an Interest in the Strategic Region where the Play is taking place as well as countries that have a strong diplomatic reason to get involved (such as allies or the overlord of the defender). At this point it’s important to note that only the Initiator (the country starting the play) and Target (the country targeted) are active participants, all others just have the potential to take part.

Next, the primary active participants on each side (the Initiator and the Target initially, though this can change if the overlord of either side steps into the play) are given a number of Maneuvers. This is a currency that primarily depends on Rank, with higher Rank countries having more maneuvers, and determines how many actions such as Swaying and adding Demands (more on these below) that said primary participant can take during the course of the play to try and gain the advantage over their enemy.

There are three distinct phases over which a Diplomatic Play plays, based on the level of Escalation, which is a value that increases each day after the play is started. The first of these is Opening Moves, during which participating countries take stock of the situation, set their initial stances (more on that below) and the Target has time to set their Main Demand (the Main Demand of the Initiator has already been set, as it depends on what type of Play was started). During the Opening Moves phase, it isn’t possible for other countries to fully commit to one side or another, with the sole exception of overlords of the primary participants. It also isn’t possible for either side to back down.

Cape Colony’s bid for independence and open British markets turned out to be a step too far. Britain demands nothing less than total annexation of the colonial upstarts, whose only hope now is either suffering partial annexation for its insolence, or having to get in real close with France and hope for the best.
DD21 2v1.png

Once Escalation reaches a certain point, the Opening Moves phase ends and the Diplomatic Maneuvering phase starts. If by this point the Target has not set their Main Demand, they are automatically given one (usually War Reparations). This is the ‘main’ phase of the Diplomatic Play, which occupies the majority of the escalation scale and during which most of the ‘action’ takes place.

During this phase, potential participants can now set any stance towards each side, from full support without requiring anything in return (something most AIs won’t be keen to do as they’re not big on having their troops die for charity, at least not in an offensive war), to leaning towards a particular side (which will signal to that side that they’re likely willing to be swayed), to simply being on the fence with no particular preference for either side. It’s also possible for countries that have not committed to one side or the other to simply Declare Neutrality and exit the play altogether, though this might have diplomatic consequences depending on the circumstances.

With only a fraction of the military strength of Great Qing, Kokand’s future independence looks highly questionable. But this Play still has the potential to become pretty complex if Kokand can convince the Sikh and Russian empires to support their case against Qing. Perhaps gaining another subject is not worth the risk of a protracted war that might well cost upwards of half a million lives.
DD21 3v1.png

The Diplomatic Maneuvering phase is also when the primary participants are expected to use up their available Maneuvers on adding Demands and Swaying potential participants to their side. It is also possible to spend your Maneuvers during the Opening Moves phase on adding Demands for yourself, burning through most of them early might leave you at a significant disadvantage late.

Demands are essentially Wargoals (and will turn into such if the Play escalates into war, but more on that later) and includes a wide variety of requests-under-duress such as ceding land, giving up claims or becoming a subject. Only the primary participants can add Demands, but in addition to demanding things on their own behalf they can also demand things on behalf of other countries backing them, if said country agrees that the Demand is something they want.

While this may make it sound like it’s a good idea to spend your maneuvers piling on as many Demands for yourself as possible, there’s a couple reasons not to. First, adding certain aggressive Demands (such as demanding land) always results in a Diplomatic Incident, which will immediately give you Infamy and may degrade relations with countries you need to support you in the Play. Second, being seen as greedy and unreasonable in your Demands will in itself make it harder to get countries to back you up, and may in fact make it so undecided participants side against you just to put a stop to your mad dreams of conquest. It’s worth noting though, that the Infamy from any Demands or Wargoals that end up not being pressed (for any reason) is partially or fully refunded, though their negative impact on relations remain.

Swaying, on the other hand, is the main way in which the primary participants get undecided participants over to their side, by making them a promise. This promise may be in the form of owing them an Obligation (more on this in a later dev diary) or promising them a Wargoal if the Play escalates into war. There’s a few more such types of promises planned for release (promising to become their Protectorate or giving them a piece of land or a subject of yours, for example) but these are not yet implemented. If the country agrees, they will be set as backing the Swaying side in the Diplomatic Play, and will fight on their side if war breaks out, just as if they voluntarily set their stance to backing that side.

Offering Prussia the Austrian states of West Galicia, Moravia, or Bohemia would be most appreciated, as they are populous border states. States which do not already border Prussian land are less attractive to them as they would be much harder to manage.
DD21 4v1.png

However, if you think the Play is over just because France threw their weight behind the Initiator and there isn’t anyone strong enough to oppose them, you’d be wrong! It’s possible for countries that have promised to back a side to betray that promise and go back to being undecided, or even switch sides entirely, perhaps because the other side made an even juicier offer. Doing this of course makes them lose out on anything that was promised to them and negatively impacts on relations with the betrayed side, but otherwise there is no limit to how many times a single country can switch sides in a Diplomatic Play (the AI will be rather reluctant to offer something to a country that has already forsaken them once unless they desperately need their support, though).

This also means that trying to ‘play it smart’ by burning through your maneuvers immediately to sway all the countries you think you need early in the Play can backfire, as the other side is then free to try and ‘bid over’ on your supporters while you’re unable to do anything. Furthermore, it can also make it risky to not be upfront about your own territorial demands - doing the swaying first and then saying ‘oh, and by the way, I want London’ might result in your side of the Play looking very empty all of a sudden as your former supporters scramble to distance themselves from you. Swaying and adding Demands during Diplomatic Maneuvering will also both pause Escalation for some time when carried out, to make it possible for the other side to react even if those actions are taken right at the end of the phase.

[Bolivia will remember this]
DD21 5v1.png

The final phase of the Diplomatic Play is Countdown to War, which is exactly what it says on the tin. During Countdown to War, both sides are locked down and it’s no longer possible for countries to declare or abandon support for either side, nor is it possible to add new Demands or do any Swaying. In fact, the only thing that is possible during this phase is Backing Down, and this is usually the phase when you will see one of the sides give in (though it is also possible to back down during Diplomatic Maneuvering).

Backing Down is, quite simply, one side deciding that the odds aren’t looking in their favor and deciding to concede the Main Demand of the other side to cut their losses. It’s important to note that only the Main Demand is ever conceded in this way, so any additional Demands that are either added or promised to supporters of the winning side are simply lost (with accrued Infamy fully refunded), along with of course all the Demands on the losing side. This means that there is actually in some cases a reason to want the Play to escalate into war (and hence, to not stack the odds in such a way that the other side sees no path to victory), as it is the only way in which you can simultaneously press multiple Demands/Wargoals, assuming you’re willing (or at least think you’re willing) to bear the heavy cost of the war. It’s possible to back down all the way up until the Escalation meter hits 100, at which point the Diplomatic Play is over and War breaks out.

Once all the cards are on the table you have to carefully weigh if this is really something you’re able to win, and what cost you’re willing to pay for the opportunity to try. Perhaps it’s better to cut your losses, gain a Truce, let the other side accrue some Infamy, score a Claim on the lost territory (if the Play was about land), and start making a plan to recover what you lost - and then some.
DD21 6v1.png

Whew, that was a lot of text, and I’m sure I’ve still missed some detail or another. As those of you who are familiar with Victoria 2 has noticed, Diplomatic Plays draws a lot of inspiration from the Crisis feature in Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness, a feature I’ve personally worked on and always thought was one of the most interesting things we’ve done in any expansion for a Paradox GSG. But with that said, our dev diaries on Diplomacy are drawing to a close (for now, we’ll certainly return to the subject later) as next week we’re going to talk about something you’ve been (rightfully) curious about since the announcement… War!
 
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But on the plus side if the cause of the war is known then hopefully the AI will admit it's lost before having millions of dead and billions of pounds wasted.

By having a fixed target it is going to be MUCH easier for the AI to work out when to fold. Rather than surrendering and running the risk of the player than tacking on extra demands at the treaty table.
But this would prevent a World War I style war.
Something that should at least be possible at some point.

Not every war needs to be a World War I war but there should be the possibility for a great war.
 
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No, the fact that the Diplomatic Play sets the hard boundaries of the possibility space in the resulting war is a critical feature of the system. The assumption is that every participant has already made all their possible claims ahead of time, to permit all the players to make a calculated decision on how critical this war is to them. I believe it's possible to add war goals via scripted effects though, so special events and the like could potentially introduce this where appropriate.
Except it doesn't always work like that in real life, and there are several wars in the timeframe, like the First Sino-Japanese War or the Spanish-American War, where the victor ended up taking more than originally intended.
 
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Maybe adding some sort of mechanic that would allow you to increase your war goals if certain prerequisites are met?
 
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But on the plus side if the cause of the war is known then hopefully the AI will admit it's lost before having millions of dead and billions of pounds wasted.

By having a fixed target it is going to be MUCH easier for the AI to work out when to fold. Rather than surrendering and running the risk of the player than tacking on extra demands at the treaty table.
Except getting the AI to fold wasn't hard in Vicky 2, since it didn't have the modifiers later Paradox games added to force the AI to refuse peace if the war hadn't been going on long enough. I regularly saw the AI willing to make peace after a single major battle if the concession was minor enough.

And again, Vicky 2's peace deals weren't freeform. You could only demand wargoals you had formally stated. You could add additional demands over the course of the war, but you couldn't just demand anything after victory.
 
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Except it doesn't always work like that in real life, and there are several wars in the timeframe, like the First Sino-Japanese War or the Spanish-American War, where the victor ended up taking more than originally intended.
This really isn't a good argument. The "taking more than originally intended" is easily simulated in the Diplomatic Play mechanics by adding further war goals as the play escalates, with the "original intent" being just the first demand put forth in the Diplomatic Play, since the other side backing down before war happens only results in the main demand being fulfilled, i.e. the original intent of the Diplomatic Play as cause for war being conceded.
 
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This really isn't a good argument. The "taking more than originally intended" is easily simulated in the Diplomatic Play mechanics by adding further war goals as the play escalates, with the "original intent" being just the first demand put forth in the Diplomatic Play, since the other side backing down before war happens only results in the main demand being fulfilled, i.e. the original intent of the Diplomatic Play as cause for war being conceded.
This does feels weird if you have to put in a maximum demand beforehand in case the war turns out to be a long total war which leaves bitterness.
Wouldn't this mean that if enough demands are on the table no side would really be interested in solving the thing peacefully.
Plus me as a supporter would be annoyed if I had been cheated out of my demands if the supported side folds. Talk about me offering help again.

I think some mechanic to add war goals during the war would be a better model.
 
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This does feels weird if you have to put in a maximum demand beforehand in case the war turns out to be a long total war which leaves bitterness.
Wouldn't this mean that if enough demands are on the table no side would really be interested in solving the thing peacefully.
Plus me as a supporter would be annoyed if I had been cheated out of my demands if the supported side folds. Talk about me offering help again.

I think some mechanic to add war goals during the war would be a better model.
A war turning out to be a long total war is your choice. If you don't feel it's worth the demand made at the beginning then don't turn it into a long drawn out total war and make peace before that happens. Either back down before the play escalates to war if it looks like the war isn't going to be worth the potential gains or make peace before the war ends up progressing that far. It's that simple.

It's also very historical for a war that turns into a total war and is dragged out into a long quagmire to end up not being worth the lives lost. In fact, all of the points you made a historical and happened quite a bit in the aftermath of wars where countries felt cheated out of their desired gains, like the gains from the war weren't worth the cost, or the war dragging on and the resulting peace feeling inadequate. Everything you're saying is an argument in favor of the current system with defined war goals at the beginning because it leads to historical feelings in the aftermath of wars that can direct diplomatic actions and countries' relationships in the aftermath in a plausible, organic way.
 
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In fact, all of the points you made a historical and happened quite a bit in the aftermath of wars where countries felt cheated out of their desired gains, like the gains from the war weren't worth the cost, or the war dragging on and the resulting peace feeling inadequate.
This is true for Italy.
But I'll say that at the beginning of the first World War even France hadn't had the total disarment of Germany and punishing reparations in it's mind.
Alsace Lorraine was a given yes. But the whole of the Versailles treaty? Nah that happend after Years of war and devastation in France.
Same goes for Germany, they didn't had proper war goals in 1914 they cobbeld them together in 1915.
 
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Also, it must be said, freeform peace deals can come with their own problems. Their open nature makes them extremely exploitable in EU4 which can definitely be gamier than the devs might want for Victoria 3. Definitely not saying freeform peace deals are worse than more predefined ones, just that they both have theirs issues and advantages.
This I do agree with. I think a decent compromise would be to have wars begin as has been said by the devs, but if the war lasts long enough then wargoals can be added or wargoals that were already there can be made non-negotiable. Also maybe this would be something given to whichever country has the highest war participation that year, so if a great power is involved in a conflict between two much smaller nations they can demand that something of their choice is added to the peace deal. Something along the lines of Wilson coming along, the American forces being the decisive factor in a few battles, then he is able to demand the Allies adopt (some of) his 14 points.
 
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How about two new war goals such as Restore Dynasty (France invading Mexico to restore the monarchy) and Civil War Interference (UK siding with one side during the American Civil War).
 
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We shall wait for this week’s DD on war.

Because war score is what defines what you can take in a peace deal and it is function of battles and conquests. I do not think they have got rid of it.

EDIT: one possibility is to be able to increase your demands with a new diplomatic play, in case you have more than a 100% warscore. With warscore defined by the original diplomatic play.

EDIT2: In vic2 war goals could be added while in a war if enough population supported jingoism: https://vic2.paradoxwikis.com/Casus_belli#War_Goals, something already stated by @DerGrößteRitter in this previous post of this thread.
 
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So we cant add additional war goals once the war has started? I feel like this is a mistake and if you could add additional goals it could be used to trigger a diplomatic play/new mechanic name at the end of the war. I'm thinking of a situation like the russo turkish war 1877-1878 where at the end of the war other nations intervened to stop what they felt like were to many demands from russia. So if you enable countries to add war goals during the war any countries that were disinterested/ok with your goals/demands prior to the war could have a say at the end of the war if you try to demand too much. (I hope that makes sense lol)
 
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Been watching the Russian-Ukrainian "diplomatic play" lately as many have been. For some reason this made me think of Vicky 3 and I was wondering on average how long does a diplomatic play last in the game before war breaks out?
 
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Been watching the Russian-Ukrainian "diplomatic play" lately as many have been. For some reason this made me think of Vicky 3 and I was wondering on average how long does a diplomatic play last in the game before war breaks out?
Imagine paradox promoting vic 3 by doing diplomatic play in game of Russia and Ukraine as joke
 

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Yes, absolutely. Occasionally, though rarely, this will create a contradiction since you and another country pledging positions in two different Plays freely could potentially make you both a co-belligerent and enemy of the other country at once. This is not allowed for quite obvious reasons, so in this case your position in the second Play would become invalid once the first Play escalates into war.
This might be a misunderstanding but can't this also be gamed by the player?

Say a player playing France is the target of a hostile Diplomatic Play by AI Germany. The French player starts a Diplomatic Play against Italy and for reasons, the German AI is co-belligerent with France on attacking Italy. The French player decides to start adding counter-demands in the German play against France, delaying the Escalation into the Countdown to War phase. So many demands are added by France that the earlier German hostile play against France is now behind the later French hostile play against Italy. The second French-Italian play kicks off into war and Germany enters the war against Italy and with France as a co-belligerent partner. As a result, the earlier German-French play cancels itself and France is now safe against hostile action by Germany as long as the war with Italy continues.

What is preventing this scenario from taking place?
 

BeauNiddle

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This might be a misunderstanding but can't this also be gamed by the player?

Say a player playing France is the target of a hostile Diplomatic Play by AI Germany. The French player starts a Diplomatic Play against Italy and for reasons, the German AI is co-belligerent with France on attacking Italy. The French player decides to start adding counter-demands in the German play against France, delaying the Escalation into the Countdown to War phase. So many demands are added by France that the earlier German hostile play against France is now behind the later French hostile play against Italy. The second French-Italian play kicks off into war and Germany enters the war against Italy and with France as a co-belligerent partner. As a result, the earlier German-French play cancels itself and France is now safe against hostile action by Germany as long as the war with Italy continues.

What is preventing this scenario from taking place?

Germany gets so angry with the extra demands that it drops out of the diploPlay vs Italy to concentrate on the one vs France. Now France is in a two front war (and has probably pissed off it's allies with all the extra demands/infamy accrued ).
 
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Germany gets so angry with the extra demands that it drops out of the diploPlay vs Italy to concentrate on the one vs France. Now France is in a two front war (and has probably pissed off it's allies with all the extra demands/infamy accrued ).
But that is a situational defense. My scenario can still happen if Germany decides not to drop out. What is preventing the gaming of this in certain rare cases where the AI does not act as you describe?
 

BeauNiddle

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But that is a situational defense. My scenario can still happen if Germany decides not to drop out. What is preventing the gaming of this in certain rare cases where the AI does not act as you describe?

Absolutely nothing probably.

The mythical situation you specifically setup to prove that a mythical situation can exist is probably not handled in the game. (I love the argument that my defence is situational but your argument that your enemy just happens to side with you in the very next diploplay is non-situational)
 
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Absolutely nothing probably.

The mythical situation you specifically setup to prove that a mythical situation can exist is probably not handled in the game. (I love the argument that my defence is situational but your argument that your enemy just happens to side with you in the very next diploplay is non-situational)
I am posing a question where a certain scenario can take place that is opposite of what the proposed mechanics by the developers intend to do. Your defense is that "it is unlikely".

That is not a good defense of a scenario that explicitly should not take place as stated by the developers who went to the lengths of making a mechanic preventing these rare cases in the first place. (the mechanic being that the first Diplomatic Play negates a successive Diplomatic Play where the stances of the nations are not compatible).