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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #19 - Relations and Infamy

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 dev diary! This one is going to be a little bit broad, as we want to go through the fundamental mechanics of Diplomacy before moving on to more specific topics. Today, the mechanics we’ll be going over are Relations, Infamy and Interests, so let’s get to them one at a time, shall we?

Starting out with Relations, this is a value on a scale between -100 and +100 that determines the overall diplomatic standing between two countries, similar to relations/opinion in games such as Europa Universalis and Stellaris. The key difference between Relations here and in those games is that in Victoria 3 relations are bilateral, meaning that while in Europa Universalis France can have a relations of -100 with Prussia while Prussia has a relations of +100 with France, in Victoria 3 these two countries will always have the same Relations score towards each other.

There’s a few reasons for this change, such as making it more clear exactly where two countries stand with each other, but the most important is that we want Relations to be a mechanic with significance and mechanical effects not just for AI countries but also for the player, and even in multiplayer. Your relation number will translate into a relations level, and the different relations levels are as follows (from highest to lowest): Warm (80-100), Amiable (50-79), Cordial (20-49), Neutral (-19 to 19), Poor (-20 to -49), Cold (-50 to -79), Hostile (-80 to -100).

Your relationship with the Great Powers will be especially important, as they are the ones with the global reach to potentially affect you no matter where your country is located
Country List.png

All of these have an impact on the AI’s decision-making in terms of which diplomatic proposals it will accept, which side it will want to join in diplomatic plays, and so on, but besides that there are also limitations on what actions you can take against another country based on your mutual Relations. For example, a relations level of Cordial or above acts as a non-aggression pact: It isn’t possible to start most Diplomatic Plays against a country with which you have that relation level without first acting to reduce said relations. On the flip side, signing and maintaining a Customs Union with a country requires you to be at or above Cordial relations, and there are other actions that cannot be taken unless relations are at other certain negative or positive thresholds.

So, how do you raise and lower relations? The primary way is through the Improve Relations and Damage Relations ongoing diplomatic actions (more on those next week), but there’s many other ways in which relations can be increased or decreased, including various events, Diplomatic Incidents (see the section on Infamy below) and the Expel Diplomats diplomatic action (which we’ll also go over in detail next week), which is a way in which one country can act to prevent another from cozying up to them relations-wise, though at the cost of gaining Infamy.

Here, France finds itself with few friends in Europe - the only other Great Power they have decent relations with is Austria, and it seems like it may not stay that way...
Diplomatic Relations Map Alt.png

That covers Relations, so let’s move on to Infamy. This is a system we have previously talked about a little under the name of Threat, implying that it works similarly to Aggressive Expansion in Europa Universalis, but is actually something we have since redesigned following tester feedback, as the very localized effects of Threat/Aggressive Expansion did not feel appropriate to the far more globalized Victorian era. The result is something that could be described as a hybrid between older Infamy (or ‘Badboy’ as those of you who have been around Paradox GSGs for a long time might recall) systems and the newer, more localized systems.

In Victoria 3, a country has an Infamy value that starts at 0 and can increase to… well, anything, as there’s no upper cap on it. As a country’s Infamy increases, other countries will become more wary, resulting in various diplomatic penalties for the infamous country.If Infamy exceeds the Pariah threshold (which is currently set to 100) the country becomes a potential target for a special Contain Threat diplomatic play where the Great Powers step in to ‘restore order’. Infamy decays slowly over time, and its rate of decay can be increased if the country has a large amount of unallocated Influence capacity, representing that capacity being put to use trying to salvage the country’s global reputation instead.

After making some aggressive moves against its neighbors, Bolivia’s infamy has increased to the point where they will start feeling some diplomatic effects - though it’s not yet too bad
Bolivia Infamy.png

So far this should probably sound very familiar to anyone who has played Victoria 2, but the key difference between Victoria 3 and its predecessor here is the Diplomatic Incident mechanic tied to Infamy. In the vast majority of cases, any action a country takes (for example demanding land in a Diplomatic Play or violating a neutral country’s sovereignty during war) that increases Infamy will also create a Diplomatic Incident localized at a particular Strategic Region (more on that below) on the map.

For example, starting a Diplomatic Play to demand a colony in West Africa will result in a Diplomatic Incident occurring there. Whenever a Diplomatic Incident happens, the country that caused it immediately suffers a penalty to their relations with all countries that have an Interest in the region, with the amount of Relations lost based on the amount of Infamy attached to the Incident in question.

Infamy in itself should be understood as a measure of how concerned the Great Powers are about a country, and as such, country Rank has an effect on how much Infamy a country gets when it commits a diplomatic transgression against another. Generally speaking, the lower the rank of the two countries involved, the less Infamy will be generated, as the Great Powers care a lot more about actions taken by and against other Great Powers than they do over two Minor Powers being engaged in a local squabble.

The Sikh Empire’s ambitions on India are not going to go unnoticed by countries with an Interest there
2021_10_07_3.png

Ultimately, what this means is that Infamy doesn’t just have a global effect, and where you’re accruing it matters. If you keep taking actions that destabilize a particular Strategic Region, you can expect to quickly become very unpopular with both the locals and any outside powers that have taken an Interest in it.

By now, I’ve said the word Interest a whole bunch of times, so it’s probably time to finally explain what they are. To do that though, I first have to explain the concept of Strategic Regions. A Strategic Region is a large predetermined geographic area consisting of a number of State Regions, with the 715 State Regions of the current internal build divided into a total of 49 Strategic Regions.

A look at the Strategic Regions of Europe - do note that as with all parts of the map, this may not be how it looks on release!
Strategic Regions.png

Interests is, put simply, a mechanic that determines whether or not a country has a stake in a particular Strategic Region and plays into numerous different mechanics such as Diplomatic Plays, Colonization and the aforementioned Diplomatic Incidents. A country can gain an Interest in a region in one of two ways: either automatically by having a geographical presence there (owning land or controlling subject nations in the region) or by using a Declared Interest.

A Declared Interest is a country quite simply saying that, regardless of their lack of a geographic presence, a Strategic Region is still of importance to them, perhaps because they plan to colonize it, or because they want to prevent a hated rival from expanding into it. A country can Declare an Interest in any region that is either adjacent to a region where they already have an Interest, or which they can reach through the support of their naval supply network (more on that later!). The number of Declared Interests that is available to a country depends on their Rank - a Great Power can choose to have its fingers in a great many pies, while an Insignificant Power is limited to acting only in regions where they already have land.

You might want to declare an Interest in Persia for numerous reasons, such as checking Russian or British aggression in the region… or as a precursor to seizing colonies there for yourself
Declare Interest.png

Interests do not provide any inherent benefit to a country besides the ability to throw their weight around in a Strategic Region, and can actually be a bit of a double-edged sword in that a country with Interests all over the world may get dragged into a lot of local conflicts. Ultimately, Interests are our attempt to simulate such historical occurrences as why certain parts of the world simply got a lot more attention from the Great Powers than others at particular points during the century that Victoria 3 covers, and to make nations act and care about things in a way that makes sense according to their national self-interest.

Right then, that’s all for today! Join me again next week as I continue to write lots of words about diplomatic things, this time on the topic of Diplomatic Actions!
 
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InsidiousMage

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Is there is a geographical limit for Great Powers deciding to intervene against nation with high Infamy? For example, a South American nation, say Bolivia, manages to become a Great Power while also gaining a lot of infamy would the European Great Powers be willing move against Bolivia even though it is on another continent?
 
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What would happen if you lose a containment war declared against you, as a pariah with high infamy?

I ask because I think that punishment should be properly severe, perhaps freedom for all national minorities.
 
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The idea of tying certain actions to certain levels of diplomatic relations seemed a little odd at first, but I think I kind of like it. At the very least it should prevent situations like "country you have perfect relations with DOWs you out of nowhere because decision/event".
 
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2021_10_07_3.png



Sigh, there go any dreams of ever liberating India :_( I think colonial states should generate far far less infamy. 62 infamy is what you would probably get for taking London lol.
I think it makes sense. The international shock of an Unrecognized power taking land (especially such a populous state) from the world's number one Great Power would be immense, especially since the Sikh Empire didn't have a nationalist claim on South Bengal- if it had become Recognized and tag-switched to India I think the situation would be far different.

To take an example of what a historical Containment War could look like, take a look at the Boxer Rebellion, which prompted the Eight-Nation Alliance to attack China, and in that case, the Qing didn't even conquer any territory, only allowed the Boxers to disrupt their interests in China.
 
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Sigismund der Münzreiche

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Also, fully appreciating effort to make relations significant, I would advocate for limiting actions like "increase/decrease relations" - I think in a truly immersive world, increase or decrease in relations should result from some meaningful international Policy moves, not abstracted "increase/decrease" Button
But how would "internal policies" have a measurable effect on a different country? Except for maybe a situation where you have pops of their culture that you could choose to not discriminate against, I don't see much overlap there. Increase/Decrease relation might be abstract and somewhat uninspired but it's not hard to image that this translates to a "charm" offensive of your diplomats in their country or in case of decrease your country publicly critizising theirs. Even in real life today one could say the west and Russia are decreasing their relations towards each other by them saying the west lies about them and the western countries claiming Russia meddles in their elections. Both could be true or not but the effect is there.
 
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Cool that diplomacy will matter more and actually be a more integrated mechanic.

But what's stopping a player from not declaring interest in a region they secretly want to not take the diplomatic hit (applies more in MP)? Does it make it less likely for them to get what they want?

Nothing, but the point of doing it is so that others know and don't mess with it or if someone does you can intervene. Declaring an interest is not a prerequisite to invading or puppeting or anything.
 
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One pitfall i see is that if you decide to covertly attack a country the action of declaring war is blocked? Hopefull prdx releases spyingcontent immediately.
Why would that be a thing? You don't need to declare an interest to declare war on a country. You declare interest so someone else doesn't mess with that area.
 
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In the vast majority of cases, any action a country takes (for example demanding land in a Diplomatic Play or violating a neutral country’s sovereignty during war)​
Could you elaborate further on this portion please? How can we violate a neutral nation's sovereignty during war? That seems rather interesting.
 
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I definately like these mechanics, but I've got a few issues with the strategic region map.
1. Why is France 2 separate regions? If the entirety of Iberia can be 1and Scandinavia, Finland, St Petersburg, + the baltic states can be 1, the balkans can be 1.... why is France 2?
2. Are Scotland and Ireland really more closely aligned with Greenland & Iceland than with England? It seems to me that any country controlling/trading with Edinburgh & Dublin is going to be much more concerned with what's happening in York & London than in Reykjavik & Nuuk.
 
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Relations being "bilateral" instead of individual for each country seems a reasonable decision from the gameplay pov but worse from a realistic angle of how things would work in real life, imho. So I'm not sure how to feel about it. Also automatically entering into a non-aggresion pact through having reached a certain relation threshold.. I don't know, maybe it works brilliantly in game and makes for the best experience but just reading about it doesn't give me a good feeling..
 
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How will Infamy work with allies and cobeligerants? For instance, if the central powers win WWI and seize a lot of land, will they start hating each other?

Does it affect subjects as well?

Will diferent government types or ideologies react differently to infamy? (E.g liberal democracies caring more about aggressive expansion than a fascist country)

Honestly, I am not entirely sold on having a single global infamy value
 
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wilcoxchar

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Thrace and Dobruja should be part of the Balkan region.
Strategically, that doesn't make sense. The mouth of the Danube River is important for trade along the river so it should be part of the Danube strategic region. And Constantinople is vital to the Turkish Straits so should be part of whichever strategic region the rest of the Turkish Straits are part of.
 
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ksmiles

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All of the examples you gave for raising infamy and causing diplomatic incidents are related to one state doing things to another state. Will a state's internal policies be able to raise infamy or cause diplomatic incidents without them using a diplomatic play to mess with another state? Things like the international outcry against what the Belgians did in the Congo, or the French intervention in Lebanon, will those be modeled?
 
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