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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #19 - Relations and Infamy

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 dev diary! This one is going to be a little bit broad, as we want to go through the fundamental mechanics of Diplomacy before moving on to more specific topics. Today, the mechanics we’ll be going over are Relations, Infamy and Interests, so let’s get to them one at a time, shall we?

Starting out with Relations, this is a value on a scale between -100 and +100 that determines the overall diplomatic standing between two countries, similar to relations/opinion in games such as Europa Universalis and Stellaris. The key difference between Relations here and in those games is that in Victoria 3 relations are bilateral, meaning that while in Europa Universalis France can have a relations of -100 with Prussia while Prussia has a relations of +100 with France, in Victoria 3 these two countries will always have the same Relations score towards each other.

There’s a few reasons for this change, such as making it more clear exactly where two countries stand with each other, but the most important is that we want Relations to be a mechanic with significance and mechanical effects not just for AI countries but also for the player, and even in multiplayer. Your relation number will translate into a relations level, and the different relations levels are as follows (from highest to lowest): Warm (80-100), Amiable (50-79), Cordial (20-49), Neutral (-19 to 19), Poor (-20 to -49), Cold (-50 to -79), Hostile (-80 to -100).

Your relationship with the Great Powers will be especially important, as they are the ones with the global reach to potentially affect you no matter where your country is located
Country List.png

All of these have an impact on the AI’s decision-making in terms of which diplomatic proposals it will accept, which side it will want to join in diplomatic plays, and so on, but besides that there are also limitations on what actions you can take against another country based on your mutual Relations. For example, a relations level of Cordial or above acts as a non-aggression pact: It isn’t possible to start most Diplomatic Plays against a country with which you have that relation level without first acting to reduce said relations. On the flip side, signing and maintaining a Customs Union with a country requires you to be at or above Cordial relations, and there are other actions that cannot be taken unless relations are at other certain negative or positive thresholds.

So, how do you raise and lower relations? The primary way is through the Improve Relations and Damage Relations ongoing diplomatic actions (more on those next week), but there’s many other ways in which relations can be increased or decreased, including various events, Diplomatic Incidents (see the section on Infamy below) and the Expel Diplomats diplomatic action (which we’ll also go over in detail next week), which is a way in which one country can act to prevent another from cozying up to them relations-wise, though at the cost of gaining Infamy.

Here, France finds itself with few friends in Europe - the only other Great Power they have decent relations with is Austria, and it seems like it may not stay that way...
Diplomatic Relations Map Alt.png

That covers Relations, so let’s move on to Infamy. This is a system we have previously talked about a little under the name of Threat, implying that it works similarly to Aggressive Expansion in Europa Universalis, but is actually something we have since redesigned following tester feedback, as the very localized effects of Threat/Aggressive Expansion did not feel appropriate to the far more globalized Victorian era. The result is something that could be described as a hybrid between older Infamy (or ‘Badboy’ as those of you who have been around Paradox GSGs for a long time might recall) systems and the newer, more localized systems.

In Victoria 3, a country has an Infamy value that starts at 0 and can increase to… well, anything, as there’s no upper cap on it. As a country’s Infamy increases, other countries will become more wary, resulting in various diplomatic penalties for the infamous country.If Infamy exceeds the Pariah threshold (which is currently set to 100) the country becomes a potential target for a special Contain Threat diplomatic play where the Great Powers step in to ‘restore order’. Infamy decays slowly over time, and its rate of decay can be increased if the country has a large amount of unallocated Influence capacity, representing that capacity being put to use trying to salvage the country’s global reputation instead.

After making some aggressive moves against its neighbors, Bolivia’s infamy has increased to the point where they will start feeling some diplomatic effects - though it’s not yet too bad
Bolivia Infamy.png

So far this should probably sound very familiar to anyone who has played Victoria 2, but the key difference between Victoria 3 and its predecessor here is the Diplomatic Incident mechanic tied to Infamy. In the vast majority of cases, any action a country takes (for example demanding land in a Diplomatic Play or violating a neutral country’s sovereignty during war) that increases Infamy will also create a Diplomatic Incident localized at a particular Strategic Region (more on that below) on the map.

For example, starting a Diplomatic Play to demand a colony in West Africa will result in a Diplomatic Incident occurring there. Whenever a Diplomatic Incident happens, the country that caused it immediately suffers a penalty to their relations with all countries that have an Interest in the region, with the amount of Relations lost based on the amount of Infamy attached to the Incident in question.

Infamy in itself should be understood as a measure of how concerned the Great Powers are about a country, and as such, country Rank has an effect on how much Infamy a country gets when it commits a diplomatic transgression against another. Generally speaking, the lower the rank of the two countries involved, the less Infamy will be generated, as the Great Powers care a lot more about actions taken by and against other Great Powers than they do over two Minor Powers being engaged in a local squabble.

The Sikh Empire’s ambitions on India are not going to go unnoticed by countries with an Interest there
2021_10_07_3.png

Ultimately, what this means is that Infamy doesn’t just have a global effect, and where you’re accruing it matters. If you keep taking actions that destabilize a particular Strategic Region, you can expect to quickly become very unpopular with both the locals and any outside powers that have taken an Interest in it.

By now, I’ve said the word Interest a whole bunch of times, so it’s probably time to finally explain what they are. To do that though, I first have to explain the concept of Strategic Regions. A Strategic Region is a large predetermined geographic area consisting of a number of State Regions, with the 715 State Regions of the current internal build divided into a total of 49 Strategic Regions.

A look at the Strategic Regions of Europe - do note that as with all parts of the map, this may not be how it looks on release!
Strategic Regions.png

Interests is, put simply, a mechanic that determines whether or not a country has a stake in a particular Strategic Region and plays into numerous different mechanics such as Diplomatic Plays, Colonization and the aforementioned Diplomatic Incidents. A country can gain an Interest in a region in one of two ways: either automatically by having a geographical presence there (owning land or controlling subject nations in the region) or by using a Declared Interest.

A Declared Interest is a country quite simply saying that, regardless of their lack of a geographic presence, a Strategic Region is still of importance to them, perhaps because they plan to colonize it, or because they want to prevent a hated rival from expanding into it. A country can Declare an Interest in any region that is either adjacent to a region where they already have an Interest, or which they can reach through the support of their naval supply network (more on that later!). The number of Declared Interests that is available to a country depends on their Rank - a Great Power can choose to have its fingers in a great many pies, while an Insignificant Power is limited to acting only in regions where they already have land.

You might want to declare an Interest in Persia for numerous reasons, such as checking Russian or British aggression in the region… or as a precursor to seizing colonies there for yourself
Declare Interest.png

Interests do not provide any inherent benefit to a country besides the ability to throw their weight around in a Strategic Region, and can actually be a bit of a double-edged sword in that a country with Interests all over the world may get dragged into a lot of local conflicts. Ultimately, Interests are our attempt to simulate such historical occurrences as why certain parts of the world simply got a lot more attention from the Great Powers than others at particular points during the century that Victoria 3 covers, and to make nations act and care about things in a way that makes sense according to their national self-interest.

Right then, that’s all for today! Join me again next week as I continue to write lots of words about diplomatic things, this time on the topic of Diplomatic Actions!
 
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Cool that diplomacy will matter more and actually be a more integrated mechanic.

But what's stopping a player from not declaring interest in a region they secretly want to not take the diplomatic hit (applies more in MP)? Does it make it less likely for them to get what they want?
 
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heniska

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View attachment 765035

Why does it look like Finland owns Petsamo here? Is the screenshot from 1836? If it is, then it's wrong as the area was only given to Finland in 1920
Strategic region doesn't take ownership into account, it's just a static collection of state regions. But you could make the argument that Petsamo doesn't belong in the "Baltic" region.
 
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One small nitpick I might have is the names of the Strategic Regions. I'd avoid political names wherever possible and focus on geographical ones.
Replace Poland to "European Great Plains" or "Central Europe", etc.
Poland is a geographical name at the time.
In a geographical point of view, Istanbul region should be in the Balkan Strategic region
But it looks like strategic regions aren't just geographical, they're geopolitical. An independent Slovenia should not have an automatic interest in Constantinople, but a France that takes Cankkale should. So it makes more sense for Constantinople to be part of the strategic geopolitical region that includes the opposite side of the Turkish Straits.
 
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Cool that diplomacy will matter more and actually be a more integrated mechanic.

But what's stopping a player from not declaring interest in a region they secretly want to not take the diplomatic hit (applies more in MP)? Does it make it less likely for them to get what they want?
Perhaps a declared Strategic Interest is the first step to a territory claim or a Casus Belli for a territory claim war. It might also be a explicit requirement to receiving territory as part of a Peace Treaty. You can't expect your allies to just hand territory over to you when you have never said one word about desiring that territory or claiming some sort of national "interest" in that piece of clay.

This would be a elegant way to avoid gaming of the Infamy mechanic.
 
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It's great that you're trying to model the closer attention to the specificity of Great Power interests. I must ask, why is France split into two Strategic Regions? Are there any countries in Northern France that could pose a threat?

I think top level of positive relations should be renamed: warm doesn't really convey the image of close relations as well as "Cordial" and "Friendly" did in Vic2
I would guess the split to make sure that some regional powers (I don't rightly remember what is just below Great Power) can have interests in one or another but not in both.
For example Northern France Strategic Region (as it is now) includes Belgium, Luxembourg, Elsass, Lothringen - places where Germanies and Netherlands will have strategic interest.
Southern France includes ex-Navarra and Italian Alps - places where Spain and Kingdom of Savoia (and later Italy) will have strategic interests.
 
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Because stuff like non agression and custom union seems tied to relations, does it mean we cannot force them through diplo acy or war if we are able to enforce it?

About the display or Relation, having the status is good, but its missing information, such as easily seeing exact number as i want to know how close i am to a change of status, and/or is it decreasing lr increasing without the need of the tooltip, and in how much time is it going to reach next status at the current pace? I can have this info by counting but i dont want to open the tooltip and count everytime

Quite interesting stuff otherwise
 
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That everyone here is arguing about region names and where they should be is a good sign. That's the kind of stuff they can change pretty easily, and it doesn't say anything about the gameplay. I have yet to encounter a Paradox Badboy system I think positively of, but I think this is going to be the best, most dynamic one so far!
 
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This is superb material prdx has outdone itself graded B+. Suggestion: change Contain Threat diplomatic play towards common threat unifier.

One pitfall i see is that if you decide to covertly attack a country the action of declaring war is blocked? Hopefull prdx releases spyingcontent immediately.
 

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A look at the Strategic Regions of Europe - do note that as with all parts of the map, this may not be how it looks on release!
View attachment 764792

Interests is, put simply, a mechanic that determines whether or not a country has a stake in a particular Strategic Region and plays into numerous different mechanics such as Diplomatic Plays, Colonization and the aforementioned Diplomatic Incidents. A country can gain an Interest in a region in one of two ways: either automatically by having a geographical presence there (owning land or controlling subject nations in the region) or by using a Declared Interest.

A Declared Interest is a country quite simply saying that, regardless of their lack of a geographic presence, a Strategic Region is still of importance to them, perhaps because they plan to colonize it, or because they want to prevent a hated rival from expanding into it. A country can Declare an Interest in any region that is either adjacent to a region where they already have an Interest, or which they can reach through the support of their naval supply network (more on that later!). The number of Declared Interests that is available to a country depends on their Rank - a Great Power can choose to have its fingers in a great many pies, while an Insignificant Power is limited to acting only in regions where they already have land.

1. I respectfully suggest you split Switzerland between different stragic regions (or create a separate Western Alps strategic region) rather than slotting them completely into Southern Germany. AFAIR IRL at some points France and Italy wanted to grab French or Italian speaking Swiss cantons, but their interest did not include any designs to meddle in Bavaria or Wuertemberg. If I understand this DD right at the moment if Italy wants to grab Ticino it will have to express strategic interest in South Germany Strategic Region which will cause it to be seen as potential adversary by Prussia and Bavaria. Whereas IRL Italian designs on Ticino were most probably of no consequence to Berlin or Muenich.

2. Same with "The Baltic" - please split Scandinavia from Baltic States (i.e. places where Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia are now).

3. Question: if as a country in one Strategic Region I form Customs Union with a country in another Strategic Region (Wuertemberg and Bayern) - does this mean that I automatically get strategic interest in that region?
 
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Cpt.Cross

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Is the amount of infamy gained from being aggressive based on the rank of the nation?.

I.e More Infamy from taking from a great power. less from an unrecognised power.

Do great powers get less infamy when picking on lower ranked nations?
 

fredjoe

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Poland is a geographical name at the time.

But it looks like strategic regions aren't just geographical, they're geopolitical. An independent Slovenia should not have an automatic interest in Constantinople, but a France country that takes Cankkale should. So it makes more sense for Constantinople to be part of the strategic geopolitical region that includes the opposite side of the Turkish Straits.
Okay, from a geopolitical point of view.
What about Greece or Bulgaria, can't they claim interest over Istanbul to seize control of the Black Sea gate?
 
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wilcoxchar

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Okay, from a geopolitical point of view.
What about Greece or Bulgaria, can't they claim interest over Istanbul to seize control of the Black Sea gate?
They almost certainly start with a Declared Interest in the Straits to represent the unique position they're in.
 
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crowdemon

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Interesting mechanics for relations & infamy. Thanks for this week development diary.
 

bilhgl

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I think you should expand the Caucasus to the south, covering some regions in Turkey and Persia, So that Turkey and Persia would have an inherent interest in the Caucasus. And any independent state breaking out of Persia and Turkey, like Armenia, pontus or Azerbaijan also would have inherent interest in the Caucasus.

Or should you have strategic regions overlap?
 
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unmerged(760025)

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I'm really not a fan of how France is divided between three strategic regions.
Northern France looks ridiculously small and the southern part way too big.
The Rhine bassin covering everything from the Ardennes all the way to the swiss border is also a bit of a stretch.
 
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Kroniorous

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Regarding the UI on the strategic region map mode, a change to the color of either North France or the region in the North Sea would make the map a bit clearer. As it stands, if the camera was slightly further southeast, you could potentially mistake Ireland as being in the North France region due to the colors being nearly identical.
 
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GeneralUrist

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The mention of a "naval supply network" impacting what regions you can Declare Interest in sounds very cool- perhaps Victoria 3 finally has a way to represent how only a very small amount of countries had the capability to conquer and hold colonies half-way across the globe?
 
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