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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #18 - Rank & Prestige

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Happy Thursday and welcome to a brand new dev diary for Victoria 3! Today we’re finally switching away from talking about economy and politics and starting on a string of Diplomacy-oriented dev diaries, of which the first is this one, where we’ll be covering Rank and Prestige, two interconnected mechanics that play a very central role in how diplomatic matters play out in the game.

Rank is a mechanic that also existed in both previous Victoria games, and is a measure of how glorious and influential a country is in the eyes of the rest of the world. What Rank a country has - be it a mighty Great Power or a largely irrelevant Unrecognized Power - is determined by two factors: Prestige (which we’ll be explaining below) and Recognition.

When talking about Recognition, it’s important to note that we are not talking about Recognition in the more commonly used term when applying to nations, that is, whether other countries recognize the nation’s independence and existence in the first place. Rather, it is a measure of whether the reigning (probably mostly European) Great Powers, as a whole, see the country as a potential equal, i.e. whether the country could potentially be included as a decision-maker in said system if they grew strong enough.

We’re not going to go too deep into this specific topic today (as we’ll return to it in a later dev diary), but the gist of it is that countries start the game either Unrecognized or Recognized, and Unrecognized countries have to gain or force recognition in order to properly climb the Rank ladder. The Unrecognized/Recognized system replaces the Civilized/Uncivilized system of Victoria 1 and 2, and a difference from those games is that being an Unrecognized country is purely a Diplomatic status with Diplomatic penalties - a country does not become inherently worse at constructing factories or fighting wars by virtue of being scorned by Metternich and his friends, though many countries with Unrecognized status do also start out on the lower end of the technological scale.

Though it has among the highest Prestige ratings in the world, Great Qing’s status as an Unrecognized Country severely limits its potential rank among the nations of the world
Qing.png

All in all, there are six different ranks that a country can occupy in Victoria 3, as well as a special seventh rank that only applies to Decentralized (non-playable) nations and so isn’t of any real interest to talk about today (please note that the names of some of these may be subject to change):
  • Great Power: These are the most powerful and glorious of nations and often have a global reach, getting involved in far-off conflicts. The most obvious example of a Great Power at the start of the game is Great Britain.
  • Major Power: These are regional powerhouses that often decide the course of conflicts in their home regions and may have a limited global presence. An example of a Major Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
  • Minor Power: These are regional powers that may be important for determining how a local conflict in their home region turns out but are generally irrelevant on the world stage. An example of a Minor Power at the start of the game is Mexico.
  • Insignificant Power: These are nations that generally do not even have the ability to influence the outcome of local conflicts and can be safely ignored by anyone other than other Insignificant Powers in their immediate vicinity. An example of an Insignificant Power at the start of the game is the Free City of Krakow.
  • Unrecognized Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that are powerful and prestigious enough to throw their weight on a regional stage, try to resist the demands of the Recognized powers and to be a potential candidate for recognition. An example of an Unrecognized Power at the start of the game is the Qing Empire.
  • Unrecognized Minor Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that generally lack the power to go up against anyone other than the weakest of Recognized powers, and will often find themselves at the mercy of Great and Major Powers and having to play them against each other to survive. An example of an Unrecognized Minor Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of Nepal.

So then, what benefits do Rank confer? Generally, the higher a country’s Rank, the more Influence capacity it generates (allowing for a greater freedom in conducting diplomacy and signing diplomatic pacts), the more Declared Interests it can support (more on that next week) and the more Maneuvers it has in Diplomatic Plays (more on that in a few weeks). Rank also plays a key role in many other systems such as Subjects, Infamy, Diplomatic Actions and more, some of which we’ll get into in the coming weeks (I know I keep saying that, but bear with me, we’ve only just started on Diplomacy!).

France starts the game as the second Great Power, just behind Britain in Prestige
France - Great Power.png

Prestige, as was mentioned above, plays a central role in all of this. Simply put, Prestige is what determines who gets to occupy what rank in the global pecking order. Unlike in Victoria 1 and Victoria 2, where Prestige was just one of three factors determining what Rank a country had, in Victoria 3 Prestige is the accumulation of all factors that makes a country more or less glorious. In order to become a certain rank, a country must meet the Prestige threshold for that rank, which is based on both how it compares to the global average and percentile-wise compared to the most prestigious country.

To explain what I mean by that, here is a look at the current requirements to be a Great Power:
  • Must be a Recognized country
  • Must not be a Subject of any other nation
  • Must have at least 3 times the average global prestige OR at least 75% of the prestige of the most prestigious nation

This means two things: The number of Great Powers, Major Powers and so on is not fixed to a specific number (as it was in Victoria 1 and 2, where you would always have 8 of each), and that the requirements to maintain and increase your Rank will change over the course of the game. A country might start as a Great Power due to their starting prestige, but then begin quickly falling behind due to economic and military stagnation, eventually being reduced to a Major Power even though their actual Prestige number never went down.

Persia is able to occupy a rank position above what its economy and army can support through considerable investment into the arts
Persia - Prestige.png

So, what is it that can give a country Prestige? The answer is… a whole lot of things! Here’s a look at some of these things, though it’s by no means an exhaustive list:
  • The Tier of a Country (whether it’s considered a City-State, Principality, Kingdom or so on) gives it a little bit of base-level Prestige. This is inherent to a specific nation and can only be increased by forming a new, more glorious nation.
  • Having a large Army gives Prestige, with more Prestige being given based on its ability to both fight effectively and look imposing.
  • Having a large, powerful and impressive-looking Navy gives Prestige to an even greater degree than the Army.
  • The total GDP (and thus indirectly level of industrialization) of a country gives it Prestige.
  • Subjects contribute Prestige to their Suzerain based on their military and economic might.
  • Being a global leader (first, second or third) in the production of a Good gives a country Prestige, with some Goods being more prestigious than others.
  • Building and supporting Art Academies (being a sponsor of the art) gives Prestige.
  • Successful undertaking of certain globally recognized projects, such as undertaking major expeditions to certain regions of the world or the construction of a canal can give a country a permanent increase in its Prestige.

That’s it for today, but we’re of course only getting started on talking about this part of the game, so next week I will return with another dev diary covering several different Diplomacy-related mechanics, namely Relations, Infamy and Interests.
 
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How many country ranks there will be?
There are 7 currently, but they're completely moddable so there isn't really a limit to how many there can be.
 
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I agree that the EIC should not be recognized, as the idea that the European powers would see a trade corporation as a potential equal is ridiculous. And it is not like it needs the diplomatic powers that come with being recognized.
 
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Good development diary.
 
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Lucododosor

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Will events like Olympic games or World Fairs also give prestige? For example, a host getting a temporary modifier or something like that.
 
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WedjetSEA

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Regarding how prestige is calculated, maybe it should also include events such as 1) how many wars that country won or 2) how many times that country successfully mediated the conflicts etc.?

And I don't know much about that period, but I don't think sponsoring the arts is that impactful on the diplomatic stage.
 
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The intent is to try and avoid a runaway scenario where there is just one Great Power left due to the impact that would have on various diplomatic mechanics. I think if we want to simulate a power rising above the other Great Powers we should think about adding a rank above Great Power instead.
A superpower perhaps ;)

(and before we talk about timelines let’s remember that when the term was coined it was applied to the USA, USSR, and the UK. The post-ww1 British and French empires were really the first superpowers. That’s why the fall of France in ww2 was and still is so shocking)
 
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I agree that the EIC should not be recognized, as the idea that the European powers would see a trade corporation as a potential equal is ridiculous. And it is not like it needs the diplomatic powers that come with being recognized.
I still think East Indian Company should not be recognized in 1836, it should be the subject of British.
The EIC is a subject of the British Empire and therefore recognized, how could it not be? By what metric do you make these statements?
 
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I know you probably don't want to talk about it now, but ranking up by "forming a new, more glorious nation", has me very interested. Will there be a dev diary dedicated to forming nations or will it just be a part of a later dev diary?
 
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Alfred Dreyfus

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Just to re-emphasise, those rankings are not final and probably not really correct. For instance, the US probably shouldn't be #5 and the EIC probably shouldn't be #8. Whether Spain should start as a Great Power or a Major Power is something where I haven't really made up my mind honestly.
Glad to hear, I was specially worried about EIC being #8

About Spain, I think it clearly fits more in the tier of USA and Ottomans than the tier of Two Sicilies.

I mean, even Two Sicilies being a 'Major Power' seems a bit off. Maybe the solution would be to add another tier (for example 'Medium Powers') for better granularity?

1) Great Powers: United Kingdom, France, Russia, Austria, Prussia
2) Major Powers: USA, Ottoman Empire, Spain
3) Medium Powers: Netherlands, Belgium, Sardinia-Piedmont, Two Sicilies, etc ...
4) Minor Powers: Mexico, Brazil, Sweden, Denmark, Portugal, etc ...
5) Insignificant Power: ...
6) Unrecognized Power: ...
7) Unrecognized Minor Power: ...
 
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The EIC is a subject of the British Empire and therefore recognized, how could it not be? By what metric do you make these statements?
From the dev diary:
When talking about Recognition, it’s important to note that we are not talking about Recognition in the more commonly used term when applying to nations, that is, whether other countries recognize the nation’s independence and existence in the first place. Rather, it is a measure of whether the reigning (probably mostly European) Great Powers, as a whole, see the country as a potential equal, i.e. whether the country could potentially be included as a decision-maker in said system if they grew strong enough.
Tell me, does the British Empire consider the EIC a potential equal? Does being a subject state automatically make you recognized? What happens if Nepal or China becomes a subject of the UK, is that all they need to be recognized?
 
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Glad to hear, I was specially worried about EIC being #8

About Spain, I think it clearly fits more in the tier of USA and Ottomans than the tier of Two Sicilies.

I mean, even Two Sicilies being a 'Major Power' seems a bit off. Maybe the solution would be to add another tier (for example 'Medium Powers') for better granularity?

1) Great Powers: United Kingdom, France, Russia, Austria
2) Major Powers: Prussia, USA, Ottoman Empire, Spain
3) Medium Powers: Netherlands, Belgium, Sardinia-Piedmont, Two Sicilies, etc ...
4) Minor Powers: Mexico, Brazil, Sweden, Denmark, Portugal, etc ...
5) Insignificant Power: ...
6) Unrecognized Power: ...
7) Unrecognized Minor Power: ...
The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was by far the strongest Italian power in 1836, and also the most industrialized one. As with Prussia/Austria, don't confuse the 1830s with later decades.
 
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A superpower perhaps ;)

(and before we talk about timelines let’s remember that when the term was coined it was applied to the USA, USSR, and the UK. The post-ww1 British and French empires were really the first superpowers. That’s why the fall of France in ww2 was and still is so shocking)
Usually the term you'll see for a single dominant power is either hegemon or hyperpower, although the latter is pretty anachronistic sounding for V3. IMO great powers with the potential for a hegemon covers the era pretty well
 
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So is there a certain optimal balance/ratio to maintain between certain aspects of prestige? In Vic2, we had prestige spam, where someone would just take cultural techs and use prestige events to push them into being a GP regardless of the other two factors. Will there be anything that would say, cause diminishing returns for one aspect of prestige if it is much higher than the others? If I just built a bunch of art academies and got prestige that way while having a navy staffed by three guys in a dingy, and an army that has shoes for weapons, would the art academies give me less prestige as it goes up higher than the other aspects?
 
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MrNoobomnenie

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The intent is to try and avoid a runaway scenario where there is just one Great Power left due to the impact that would have on various diplomatic mechanics. I think if we want to simulate a power rising above the other Great Powers we should think about adding a rank above Great Power instead.
Additional Superpower rank, only being available under a certain conditions, definetly should be a thing. The game's end date is only one decade away from 2 Superpowers splitting the world between each other, and this probably could have hapenned earlier under the right historical circumstances.
 
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Fallofthepurple

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From the dev diary:

Tell me, does the British Empire consider the EIC a potential equal? Does being a subject state automatically make you recognized? What happens if Nepal or China becomes a subject of the UK, is that all they need to be recognized?
Recognizing them as a "potential equal" is just a funny euphemism for GPs and their racist, supremacist worldviews.
You get to sit at the table via one of two conditions: your country is run by "civilized" (i.e white) people or you forced yourself in like Japan.

The EIC is just white people running India in HMs name, its squarely fits into the worldview of the time.
 
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Alfred Dreyfus

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The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was by far the strongest Italian power in 1836, and also the most industrialized one. As with Prussia/Austria, don't confuse the 1830s with the 1860s.
About Prussia/Austria, I totally agree.

But about Spain, its strength was definitely more close to USA or Ottomans than to Two Sicilies (and fun fact, the Kingdom of Two Sicilies was reigned by the Spanish royal family, although a Personal Union was forbidden by France and Great Britain since a Treaty was signed, I can't remember which one right now).
 
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Wizzington

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So is there a certain optimal balance/ratio to maintain between certain aspects of prestige? In Vic2, we had prestige spam, where someone would just take cultural techs and use prestige events to push them into being a GP regardless of the other two factors. Will there be anything that would say, cause diminishing returns for one aspect of prestige if it is much higher than the others? If I just built a bunch of art academies and got prestige that way while having a navy staffed by three guys in a dingy, and an army that has shoes for weapons, would the art academies give me less prestige as it goes up higher than the other aspects?
There is nothing like that right now but it's for sure on my to look at list, as yeah, I don't think a country should really be able to be a Great Power on art alone.
 
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