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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #18 - Rank & Prestige

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Happy Thursday and welcome to a brand new dev diary for Victoria 3! Today we’re finally switching away from talking about economy and politics and starting on a string of Diplomacy-oriented dev diaries, of which the first is this one, where we’ll be covering Rank and Prestige, two interconnected mechanics that play a very central role in how diplomatic matters play out in the game.

Rank is a mechanic that also existed in both previous Victoria games, and is a measure of how glorious and influential a country is in the eyes of the rest of the world. What Rank a country has - be it a mighty Great Power or a largely irrelevant Unrecognized Power - is determined by two factors: Prestige (which we’ll be explaining below) and Recognition.

When talking about Recognition, it’s important to note that we are not talking about Recognition in the more commonly used term when applying to nations, that is, whether other countries recognize the nation’s independence and existence in the first place. Rather, it is a measure of whether the reigning (probably mostly European) Great Powers, as a whole, see the country as a potential equal, i.e. whether the country could potentially be included as a decision-maker in said system if they grew strong enough.

We’re not going to go too deep into this specific topic today (as we’ll return to it in a later dev diary), but the gist of it is that countries start the game either Unrecognized or Recognized, and Unrecognized countries have to gain or force recognition in order to properly climb the Rank ladder. The Unrecognized/Recognized system replaces the Civilized/Uncivilized system of Victoria 1 and 2, and a difference from those games is that being an Unrecognized country is purely a Diplomatic status with Diplomatic penalties - a country does not become inherently worse at constructing factories or fighting wars by virtue of being scorned by Metternich and his friends, though many countries with Unrecognized status do also start out on the lower end of the technological scale.

Though it has among the highest Prestige ratings in the world, Great Qing’s status as an Unrecognized Country severely limits its potential rank among the nations of the world
Qing.png

All in all, there are six different ranks that a country can occupy in Victoria 3, as well as a special seventh rank that only applies to Decentralized (non-playable) nations and so isn’t of any real interest to talk about today (please note that the names of some of these may be subject to change):
  • Great Power: These are the most powerful and glorious of nations and often have a global reach, getting involved in far-off conflicts. The most obvious example of a Great Power at the start of the game is Great Britain.
  • Major Power: These are regional powerhouses that often decide the course of conflicts in their home regions and may have a limited global presence. An example of a Major Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
  • Minor Power: These are regional powers that may be important for determining how a local conflict in their home region turns out but are generally irrelevant on the world stage. An example of a Minor Power at the start of the game is Mexico.
  • Insignificant Power: These are nations that generally do not even have the ability to influence the outcome of local conflicts and can be safely ignored by anyone other than other Insignificant Powers in their immediate vicinity. An example of an Insignificant Power at the start of the game is the Free City of Krakow.
  • Unrecognized Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that are powerful and prestigious enough to throw their weight on a regional stage, try to resist the demands of the Recognized powers and to be a potential candidate for recognition. An example of an Unrecognized Power at the start of the game is the Qing Empire.
  • Unrecognized Minor Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that generally lack the power to go up against anyone other than the weakest of Recognized powers, and will often find themselves at the mercy of Great and Major Powers and having to play them against each other to survive. An example of an Unrecognized Minor Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of Nepal.

So then, what benefits do Rank confer? Generally, the higher a country’s Rank, the more Influence capacity it generates (allowing for a greater freedom in conducting diplomacy and signing diplomatic pacts), the more Declared Interests it can support (more on that next week) and the more Maneuvers it has in Diplomatic Plays (more on that in a few weeks). Rank also plays a key role in many other systems such as Subjects, Infamy, Diplomatic Actions and more, some of which we’ll get into in the coming weeks (I know I keep saying that, but bear with me, we’ve only just started on Diplomacy!).

France starts the game as the second Great Power, just behind Britain in Prestige
France - Great Power.png

Prestige, as was mentioned above, plays a central role in all of this. Simply put, Prestige is what determines who gets to occupy what rank in the global pecking order. Unlike in Victoria 1 and Victoria 2, where Prestige was just one of three factors determining what Rank a country had, in Victoria 3 Prestige is the accumulation of all factors that makes a country more or less glorious. In order to become a certain rank, a country must meet the Prestige threshold for that rank, which is based on both how it compares to the global average and percentile-wise compared to the most prestigious country.

To explain what I mean by that, here is a look at the current requirements to be a Great Power:
  • Must be a Recognized country
  • Must not be a Subject of any other nation
  • Must have at least 3 times the average global prestige OR at least 75% of the prestige of the most prestigious nation

This means two things: The number of Great Powers, Major Powers and so on is not fixed to a specific number (as it was in Victoria 1 and 2, where you would always have 8 of each), and that the requirements to maintain and increase your Rank will change over the course of the game. A country might start as a Great Power due to their starting prestige, but then begin quickly falling behind due to economic and military stagnation, eventually being reduced to a Major Power even though their actual Prestige number never went down.

Persia is able to occupy a rank position above what its economy and army can support through considerable investment into the arts
Persia - Prestige.png

So, what is it that can give a country Prestige? The answer is… a whole lot of things! Here’s a look at some of these things, though it’s by no means an exhaustive list:
  • The Tier of a Country (whether it’s considered a City-State, Principality, Kingdom or so on) gives it a little bit of base-level Prestige. This is inherent to a specific nation and can only be increased by forming a new, more glorious nation.
  • Having a large Army gives Prestige, with more Prestige being given based on its ability to both fight effectively and look imposing.
  • Having a large, powerful and impressive-looking Navy gives Prestige to an even greater degree than the Army.
  • The total GDP (and thus indirectly level of industrialization) of a country gives it Prestige.
  • Subjects contribute Prestige to their Suzerain based on their military and economic might.
  • Being a global leader (first, second or third) in the production of a Good gives a country Prestige, with some Goods being more prestigious than others.
  • Building and supporting Art Academies (being a sponsor of the art) gives Prestige.
  • Successful undertaking of certain globally recognized projects, such as undertaking major expeditions to certain regions of the world or the construction of a canal can give a country a permanent increase in its Prestige.

That’s it for today, but we’re of course only getting started on talking about this part of the game, so next week I will return with another dev diary covering several different Diplomacy-related mechanics, namely Relations, Infamy and Interests.
 
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Admiral Boysen

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Shouldn't Persia technically be an empire (even if it's extremely vestigial)? Both Qajar and later Pahlavi rulers were all referred to as Shananshah, i.e. King of Kings - the address used by Achaemenids since Cyrus the Great.
 
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wilcoxchar

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I think it would make more sense to be based off of the percentage of the total prestige
Not really, that causes other problems of its own. For example, say you had 5 countries with prestige of 100, 60, 20, 10, and 10. If the great power status was based on the percentage of the total, let's say at least 25% of the total, then to start the 100 and 60 prestige countries would be great powers for having at least 50 out of the 200 total prestige. But if one of the 10 prestige countries then surged and reached 60 prestige, then the total would be 250, which means you'd need at least 63 prestige to be a great power. That would not only mean that country now on the level with a previous great power would not attain great power status, but the country that was a previous great power would lose its status for no reason.

Meanwhile, let's look at what would happen if you have it as based on the average, say, 1.2x the average to keep it roughly in line with the 25% of total metric at start previously used. At start, you would need 40 x 1.2 or 48 prestige to become a great power, so the 100 and 60 prestige nations would be great powers to start. But with the 10 prestige power gaining to 60, you would now need 50 x 1.2 or 60. So both 60 prestige nations would reach or keep great power status, which is a lot more reasonable for that situation.
 
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Stein14

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They did not fight any wars in 1836. Prussia grew stronger than Austria in the coming decades but their position in 1836 was not a terribly strong one. 1866 it's a whole other picture, but the game doesn't start in 1866.
I agree that it would not have been enough for Austria + all German medium-sized states 1836 but with a 1 vs 1 I am optimistic.
 
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GameAddict21

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75% of the most prestigious nation. Is that 75% of the prestige of the country that is Rank 1 or 75% of the country that has the highest prestige even if they cant move passed rank 80 because they are unrecognised like Qing?
 
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Wizzington

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Just to re-emphasise, those rankings are not final and probably not really correct. For instance, the US probably shouldn't be #5 and the EIC probably shouldn't be #8. Whether Spain should start as a Great Power or a Major Power is something where I haven't really made up my mind honestly.
 
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Svenska Super

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That looks just amazing, the only thing I don't like is very big impact of art academy on prestige, in case of Persia one art academy gives more than entire army. I really really hope it won't be like someone will be able to spam art academies to become a super postmodernist world power painting enemies to death
thinking the same, almost doubting if it are trolling values to lure people like us in the commenting section
A bit more realism plz prdx and the game will be an outright hit
 
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Wizzington

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thinking the same, almost doubting if it are trolling values to lure people like us in the commenting section
A bit more realism plz prdx and the game will be an outright hit
They are WIP values, as indicated by the WIP images placed on the screenshots. Final balancing of all values isn't done until close to release. In fact, one thing will often do during development is to set overpowered values to things on purpose, so we can see how it feels to play with and gradually adjust down. The reason we do this is that setting values on a feature too low from the start can lead to testers ignoring the feature and it being more or less forgotten about.
 
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wilcoxchar

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It's really good that being a goods production leader and things like that count directly toward prestige and power ranking now. It's a lot more realistic to what the Victorian era valued. Now historical events like Japonisme and Brazil's hefty monopoly on coffee trade might actually matter and be given enough weight as much as they did during the time period.
 
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Svenska Super

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They are WIP values, as indicated by the WIP images placed on the screenshots. Final balancing of all values isn't done until close to release. In fact, one thing will often do during development is to set overpowered values to things on purpose, so we can see how it feels to play with and gradually adjust down. The reason we do this is that setting values on a feature too low from the start can lead to testers ignoring the feature and it being more or less forgotten about.
thx appreciate that.
 

MasterPaw

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1) GDP is tie breaker for two countries of the exact same prestige.
2) If everyone had the exact same prestige everyone would be a Minor Power but due to the various normalization mechanics built into the game, this basically cannot happen short of some extreme modding.
what would be the tie breaker if they have same prestige and gdp? :)
 
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Skales

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Shouldn't Persia technically be an empire (even if it's extremely vestigial)? Both Qajar and later Pahlavi rulers were all referred to as Shananshah, i.e. King of Kings - the address used by Achaemenids since Cyrus the Great.

It has to be noted that even with the territorial reduction, the Qajar Empire is still twice the size of the German Empire and includes many ethnic groups and several vestigial vassal states, it was definitely an empire, albeit a declining one and only of regional importance.
 
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wilcoxchar

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I still think East Indian Company should not be recognized in 1836, it should be the subject of British.
I'm pretty sure it's both a British subject and recognized.
 
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Wizzington

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what would be the tie breaker if they have same prestige and gdp? :)
Exact same GDP is virtually impossible since it's a big value that scales down to 5 decimals but if it happened against all odds then country tag index would be the tie breaker.
 
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Al-Khalidi

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I think that not just size of military should influence prestige but also victories or defeats in wars and battles, I think victories or defeats were perhaps the most important events influencing prestige..
 
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