Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #18 - Rank & Prestige

[Jamaican Castle]

Maybe, get this, there's more nuance to diplomacy than a numbered list of countries? China may be #80 and Luxembourg may be #65 or whatever, but if you're Nepal or Japan, who's the bigger concern right now?

In particular, even if a diplomatic privilege is limited by rank, that doesn't mean it has to be a strict progression.

For instance, if demanding vassalization relies on your country rank, it could be available for Great Powers, Major Powers, and Unrecognized Powers, and unavailable for Minor Powers, Insignificant Powers, and Unrecognized Minor Powers, irrespective of the fact that that's "out of order".

 

[Grand Historian]

Assuming I'm understanding the mechanics correctly, there are ways to shift from, say, a principality to a kingdom? Are these available for everyone or tied to specific countries/interest groups? One of the things that irked me about EU4 was how any country could become an empire with enough development regardless of extenuating context. For example, French Legitimistes would absolutely balk at the idea of 'promoting' a Bourbon to the rank of Emperor, even though a player would have no gameplay reason to, while Bonapartistes wouldn't settle for anything less than an Empire. Would Prussia be able to become an Empire independent of forming Germany - would that also undermine their efforts to/be a consequence of their failure to unify Germany? Will Republics have similar ranks (I.E. would Switzerland and the USA be treated the same for gameplay-prestige purposes)? Will there be any intrinsic benefits to a certain government tier outside of benefits to prestige?

 

[EU3NOOB]

Great Power: These are the most powerful and glorious of nations and often have a global reach, getting involved in far-off conflicts. The most obvious example of a Great Power at the start of the game is Great Britain.

Based on this definition I hope the US isn't considered a Great Power in 1836. It didn't really start throwing its weight around the international stage until the late 19th century.

Indeed, even the famous Monroe Doctrine was only a thing because Britain was willing to enforce it. They were willing to enforce it because the British wanted to maintain the status quo in Europe and her rivals in Europe growing in strength due to conquests in the New World would harm the status quo.

The Americans would certainly be a major power, though.

 

[Hero Of Olympus]

Based on this definition I hope the US isn't considered a Great Power in 1836. It didn't really start throwing its weight around the international stage until the late 19th century.

Indeed, even the famous Monroe Doctrine was only a thing because Britain was willing to enforce it. They were willing to enforce it because the British wanted to maintain the status quo in Europe and her rivals in Europe growing in strength due to conquests in the New World would harm the status quo.

The Americans would certainly be a major power, though.

I hope that there would be a debuff for Japan or f.e. the USA while they are at an isolation time.


Soo UK probably starts as a Kingdom (at least it should IMO) I'm wondering if EIC changes into British Raj it should become Empire soo that should change UK into Empire too. My thoughts about that are that there was a lot of Empires in Europe then but UK wouldn't like to become one soo they used British Raj soo that British King would be as prestigious as rest one Emperors. Will sth like that be reflected in game?

 

[ISitOnGnomes]

Based on this definition I hope the US isn't considered a Great Power in 1836. It didn't really start throwing its weight around the international stage until the late 19th century.

Indeed, even the famous Monroe Doctrine was only a thing because Britain was willing to enforce it. They were willing to enforce it because the British wanted to maintain the status quo in Europe and her rivals in Europe growing in strength due to conquests in the New World would harm the status quo.

The Americans would certainly be a major power, though.

I see is as potential. The US certainly had the potential to go out domineering other powers around the world, but it chose not to, for various reasons. Saying "X country chose to do something in history, therefore it shouldn't be allowed to do those things in game" is missing the entire alternate history aspect of the game. They had the wealth, manpower, and industry to compete on the world stage, but there was little benefit for the nation to go gallivanting through asia and africa when there was half a continent in their backyard to dominate.

 

[Earmuffs]

Neat.

 

[Nibbes]

Spain should be a Great Power not because it was but because people saw it as one of the great powers of Europe and its reputation as a great power is what allowed them to act and maintain as many diplomatic relations as they did. People at the time expected Spain to bounce back it just never did. Great power status is really the only benefit the player of Spain should have at the time.
With these following negatives acting againstin 1836

Carlist war unsolved (with Spain starting in a civil war or high unrest)
high in debt(close to being insolvent again)
anticlerical and Carlists liberals
the church Spain's single largest landholder and monarchy strongest ally that should really be paying taxes to help with the debt
very low legitimacy

so overall your nation is on fire and you're experiencing a drought, good luck.
The player should spend 10 - 40 years just stabilising the country which most if they are lucky or on the 4th playthrough might do so in a short enough time they get to keep the rank. If the fire burn for more than 10 years most of Europe will see that they're too preoccupied with Home Affairs to be able to properly industrialize, modernise and Project power

also, it is a good quick tutorial tool to show new players that great power rank can be lost because of internal affairs and rebels can switch government types. For Spain, it should happen like 95/100 times every game

Still want option to re established the Spanish empire in Americas. I really hoping for 1814 start date at release too on top of 1836 one. Gives Spain better odds

 

[Nibbes]

Assuming I'm understanding the mechanics correctly, there are ways to shift from, say, a principality to a kingdom? Are these available for everyone or tied to specific countries/interest groups? One of the things that irked me about EU4 was how any country could become an empire with enough development regardless of extenuating context. For example, French Legitimistes would absolutely balk at the idea of 'promoting' a Bourbon to the rank of Emperor, even though a player would have no gameplay reason to, while Bonapartistes wouldn't settle for anything less than an Empire. Would Prussia be able to become an Empire independent of forming Germany - would that also undermine their efforts to/be a consequence of their failure to unify Germany? Will Republics have similar ranks (I.E. would Switzerland and the USA be treated the same for gameplay-prestige purposes)? Will there be any intrinsic benefits to a certain government tier outside of benefits to prestige?

The Europeans should definitely get some special diplomacy related to concert of Europe and Royal lines and nobility ties.

For example, monarchs and aristocrats in Europe would ally at times even across international lines to put down nationalist or republican revolutionaries or elements. If Austria or Austria Hungary lost its emperor and nobility in revolution it’s not really empire or even thing anymore but a “greater Austria” that is also a republic. The different ethnic groups especially nationalist would feel less tied to regime that is now seen as just German nationalist who got rid of monarch. They likely try to break away or maybe even re install the Habsburg monarch

 

[Axe99]

Cheers for the DD Wizzington and the extra info from you and Iacheck - yet another system that's a step-up from Vicky 2 and will help create a more dynamic, immersive and interesting world (and moving from civilised/uncivilised to recognised/unrecognised very good on other fronts as well, not least the impact on society and economics). It sounds excellent, and I look forward to hearing more on diplomatic methods - fingers crossed for some gunboat diplomacy

Exact same GDP is virtually impossible since it's a big value that scales down to 5 decimals but if it happened against all odds then country tag index would be the tie breaker.

But what if every nation had the exact same GDP and prestige, the same size and quality army, the same size and quality navy, the same investment in art, and the same country tag?! A joke of course - I'm being deliberately silly here* - thanks for being patient with us and explaining everything

As for a naval pic, here's a naval-prestige themed image, a painting of the 1897 fleet review for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee - one of a number of peak moments of naval prestige during the game's period:

* I'm well aware country tags are unique, but given the mechanics involved cannot think of a non-crazily-modded situation where it this would be the deciding factor.

 

[Price21]

on the other hand should examples such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Empire_of_Haiti really give extra prestige

their should be an option for the great powers to recognise this as either only in name (no prestige), or as a legitimate empire (grants prestige).

and likewise for everything in that vein

 

[Price21]

Austria-Hungary was also just called Austria long after the official formation of Austria-Hungary. Should forming Austria-Hungary then also just make you keep the name of Austria?

Ottoman Empire was called Turkey, so I guess the Ottomans should just be called Turkey in game.

There should be an event at the date of these formations, to choose between either name. Its entirely aesthetic but kind of an immersion prospect as well, so let it be a choice.

 

[Nibbes]

As for a naval pic, here's a naval-prestige themed image, a painting of the 1897 fleet review for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee - one of a number of peak moments of naval prestige during the game's period

I hope the navy prestige isn’t op compared to army strength. Also what about Air Force prestige late game? Create a massive and prestigious Air Force to counter British navy

 

[demanvanwezel]

I hope the navy prestige isn’t op compared to army strength. Also what about Air Force prestige late game? Create a massive and prestigious Air Force to counter British navy

I hope it is, navy in this timeperiod was massively more important then the army in terms of power projection, there's a reason germany wanted to build a fleet despite them having like 100 times the army size of the UK

also airforce wasn't really a thing untill 1917/1918 and even then it had to struggle to make itself into a distinct thing from the army (and even that wasn't implemented in most countries by the 1930's AKA end of the game)

 

[The_Real_China_WU-Empire]

All in all, there are six different ranks that a country can occupy in Victoria 3, as well as a special seventh rank that only applies to Decentralized (non-playable) nations and so isn’t of any real interest to talk about today (please note that the names of some of these may be subject to change):

• Great Power: These are the most powerful and glorious of nations and often have a global reach, getting involved in far-off conflicts. The most obvious example of a Great Power at the start of the game is Great Britain.
• Major Power: These are regional powerhouses that often decide the course of conflicts in their home regions and may have a limited global presence. An example of a Major Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
• Minor Power: These are regional powers that may be important for determining how a local conflict in their home region turns out but are generally irrelevant on the world stage. An example of a Minor Power at the start of the game is Mexico.
• Insignificant Power: These are nations that generally do not even have the ability to influence the outcome of local conflicts and can be safely ignored by anyone other than other Insignificant Powers in their immediate vicinity. An example of an Insignificant Power at the start of the game is the Free City of Krakow.
• Unrecognized Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that are powerful and prestigious enough to throw their weight on a regional stage, try to resist the demands of the Recognized powers and to be a potential candidate for recognition. An example of an Unrecognized Power at the start of the game is the Qing Empire.
• Unrecognized Minor Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that generally lack the power to go up against anyone other than the weakest of Recognized powers, and will often find themselves at the mercy of Great and Major Powers and having to play them against each other to survive. An example of an Unrecognized Minor Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of Nepal.

I think, it is precisely because there are too few ranks that problems occur. According to my ranking, the Qing Dynasty and the Japanese Shogunate will rank higher than Luxembourg or Krakow. Moreover, the ranking of the British East India Company is unlikely to surpass Spain and Turkey.

I thought about diplomatic ranks, and it’s my idea:


1.Superpower:

• UK(early 19th century), USA(mid 20th century), Soviet Union
• During the most time of the game, this rank do not appear in the diplomatic interface unless a country that qualifies as a Superpower.
• There are at least two or more indicators that are absolutely No. 1 in the world, and the sphere of influence must cover at least three continents.
• When the superiority of a Superpower ceases, it will be relegated to become Great Power.
• In the early 19th century, UK's industry, navy, trade, technology, and economy was all No.1 in the world for a long time, so it can be regarded as a Superpower.
• But, after the rise of the USA and Germany, UK regressed back to the rank of a Great Power.

2.Great Power:

• UK(mid 19th & 20th century), France, Austria, Russia(19th century), Prussia, USA(19th century), Germany, Italy, Meiji Japan
• The core rank of the V3 diplomatic mechanism. Many diplomatic activities areonly for the Great Powers and Superpowers, and basically what the Superpowers can do, the Great Powers can also do.
• The Great Powers recognized by the Vienna Conference.
• Or a country with a large population and military power that has successfully undergone unification or modernization.
• If you become Great Power, you should manage it properly. If you lose wars twice, it will make your countries becoming a Fallen Great Power. Such as Austria and Russia.
• Great Powers will be forced to be involved in various international conflicts. If they do not participate, they will lose a lot of prestige, and eventually they will degenerate into Fallen Great powers.
• This rank will have bonus with military and economy technology.

3.Fallen Great Power:

• Spain(19th century), Qing Dynasty(early 19th century), Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, Russia(early 20th century)
• Can degenerated from the Great Powers or degenerate into a Major Power.
• If you want to change the rank, there are only two options.
• 1 is Maintain economic and artistic prosperity and win at least two wars with other Great Powers, then you will go back to Great Power rank.
• 2 is the become Major Power rank naturally, then strengthen your country, become Rising Major Power, and finally return to the rank of Great Power.
• This rank will have bonus with Art. Most of the abilities are the same as the Great Powers but diplomacy will be greatly restricted.
• National divisions and revolutions will be extremely serious

4.Rising Major Power:

• Sardinia, Meiji Japan and others
• A country with the potential to become a Great Power, but they are powerful enough to survive among the Great Powers.
• Evolved from a Major power.
• Their AI's aggressiveness will be very high.
• If you win a war with a Great Power only once, you can immediately become a Great Power yourself. For example, Meiji Japan defeated Russia.
• Rising Major Power will be more willing to attack the Great Power or Fallen Great Power which is the closest or weakest to it. Such as Sardinia choose Austria as its main enemy not France.
• If a Rising Power having a war with a Great Power, other Great Powers will be more inclined to help this Rising Power.
• This rank will have bonus with military and culture technology.

5.Major Power:

• Spain(20th century), Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden, Two Sicilies, Bavaria, Serbia, Poland, Qing Dynasty(mid 19th & 20th century), and others
• These countries, if they are manipulated by AI, are possible to become Great Powers.
• To Fallen Great Powers and the countries weaker than them, their AI's aggressiveness will be very high. To the Great Powers, they will proceed cautiously. Such as the different attitude of Belgium which treat African Congo and European nations, Balkan countries treat each others and Russia.
• Major Power will be more willing to attack the Fallen Great Power which is the closest or weakest to it. Such as Japan to Qing, Serbia to Austria-Hungary. Balkan countries to Turkey.
• Including some possible moves: If Russia weakens, Sweden will retake Finland. If Austria and Prussia is fallen, Bavaria will catch this chance to defeat them.
• This rank will have bonus with Industry and trade technology.

6.Minor Power:

• East India Company (THE BEST), Indonesia, Switzerland, Ukraine, Argentina, Mexico, Brazil, Canada, Australia and others
• These countries, if they are manipulated by AI, are very hard to become Great Powers
• And it’s difficult to engage in cross-state spheres of influence, colonization, or wars with Great Powers
• AI's aggressiveness will be significantly lower than Rising Major Power or Major Power.
• The great powers are more willing to add these countries to their sphere of influence.
• This rank will have bonus with economy, and reverse with military and diplomatic technology.

7.Unrecognized Major Power:

• Egypt, Persia, Ethiopia, Japanese Shogunate
• These countries, if they are manipulated by AI, are very hopeful of getting rid of their unrecognized status
• If they are recognized, they will be directly classified as Major Power
• According to this mechanism, after the Japanese Shogunate became Meiji Japan, it would first become a Major Power. Then, after defeating the Fallen Great Power Qing Dynasty, it became a Rising Major power. After defeating the Great Power Russia, Japan finally became a Great Power.

8.Unrecognized Minor Power:

• Vietnam, Korea, Thailand, Burma and others
• These countries, if they are manipulated by AI, are hard of getting rid of their unrecognized status
• If they are recognized, they will be directly classified as Minor Power.

9.Insignificant Power:

• Luxembourg MY BOY, Krakow, Montenegro, San Marino, Monaco and others
• If a country's population, provinces, or military power is as small as a certain amount, and it will be this rank.
• These countries, if they are manipulated by AI, it is never to become Great Powers
• Great Powers are not willing to add these countries to their sphere of influence, unless it is the same nation as the Great Powers. Such as minor German states to Austria and Prussia, LXB to France.

10.Unrecognized Insignificant Power:

• Nepal, Bhutan, Lanfang Republic and others
• If a country's population, provinces, or military power is as small as a certain amount, and it will be this rank.
• These countries, if they are manipulated by AI, are never getting rid of their unrecognized status.

I hope this mechanism can help you.

 

[Idle America]

I'm ready to take our place on the world stage, Mr. Roosevelt! And I'll use this power to bring liberty to all peoples of the Americas!

 

[Axe99]

I hope the navy prestige isn’t op compared to army strength. Also what about Air Force prestige late game? Create a massive and prestigious Air Force to counter British navy

I hope it is, navy in this timeperiod was massively more important then the army in terms of power projection, there's a reason germany wanted to build a fleet despite them having like 100 times the army size of the UK

As demanvanwezel well says, while army strength should be important, it's important to bear in mind that navies (and particularly capital ships), particularly in the context of the explosion in international trade, were the 'peak power projection tools' of their day. Waterborne (and primarily seaborne) trade revolutionised economies and was the avenue for new technology - for example:

In 1862, by far the cheapest way to send stores from St Petersburg to the Black Sea was by ship to London and then transship them to the Black Sea (from Conways All the World's Fighting Ships, 1860-1905).

Air forces were important (and mentioning a prestige bonus for air forces later in the game is a very good idea, and something that should be in there), but it wasn't until the 1930s that aircraft had the range to begin to counter naval power other than if they operated from ships (and even then at some risk to the carrier, due to relatively low operational radiuses) or did it in a coastal defence role (which is important, but the complete opposite of power projection and the prestige that comes with it). Even then, it's worth noting that WW2 didn't mean the end of the importance of naval forces (don't look now, but they're still important to this day), and air forces to this day can only support power projection if they have friendly airbases or naval vessels to operate from (for example, in 1982 the RAF was vastly superior to the Argentine airforce, but the only British aircraft that mattered were the ones that could reach and operate the Falklands which, by and large (ie, other than a few very-long-range bombing raids), were those operating from British carriers).

There is something to be said from the technology reaching a certain level of maturity for aircraft carriers to provide prestige, but we don't know how the devs plan to manage it, and it sounds from the description it's going to be a much more nuanced than Vicky 2.

That being said, armies should still be important, and iirc Vicky 2 did overemphasise navies by it's somewhat blunt 'dreadnought prestige bonus'. Given the care and attention the devs have shown so far though, and

 

[Willem IV]

The AirForce in the Great War was mostly recon. No major impact in direct warfare. The fight was still on the ground and seas. The era/game is more about securing your resources/tradenetwork. So you needed a big fleet

 

[Ledjakuberer]

is there some way for an unrecognized power to force recognition? Like as a war goal, or beating the great powers in war in general. If you manage to properly get Japan or China going properly and start threatening British India or something. It would be weird if Britain could just perpetually pretend you don’t matter whilst at the same time getting their empire wrecked by you.

 

[Willem IV]

Nothing know so far, but they confirmed that the Russian-Japanese war of 1905 was an inspiration for them.
So yes, you most likely need to do some fighting to gain recognition.

 

[Axe99]

The AirForce in the Great War was mostly recon. No major impact in direct warfare. The fight was still on the ground and seas. The era/game is more about securing your resources/tradenetwork. So you needed a big fleet

Recon was what it was useed for initially, but even then it was hugely important in the Great War - in effect being able to see the shape of the enemy's lines, spot for artillery, see the massing of reserves. That kind of intelligence is priceless, which is why aerial warfare developed so quickly. Bombing had an impact though (and before the end of WW1, torpedoes were being launched from aircraft over water). There's a reason thousands up thousands of aircraft were made an used in action. And bearing in mind the game goes to the 1930s, when air forces were an order of magnitude more important again, it'd be odd for them not to count in the 'prestige tally' just because they didn't happen to exist at the start of the game.