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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #18 - Rank & Prestige

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Happy Thursday and welcome to a brand new dev diary for Victoria 3! Today we’re finally switching away from talking about economy and politics and starting on a string of Diplomacy-oriented dev diaries, of which the first is this one, where we’ll be covering Rank and Prestige, two interconnected mechanics that play a very central role in how diplomatic matters play out in the game.

Rank is a mechanic that also existed in both previous Victoria games, and is a measure of how glorious and influential a country is in the eyes of the rest of the world. What Rank a country has - be it a mighty Great Power or a largely irrelevant Unrecognized Power - is determined by two factors: Prestige (which we’ll be explaining below) and Recognition.

When talking about Recognition, it’s important to note that we are not talking about Recognition in the more commonly used term when applying to nations, that is, whether other countries recognize the nation’s independence and existence in the first place. Rather, it is a measure of whether the reigning (probably mostly European) Great Powers, as a whole, see the country as a potential equal, i.e. whether the country could potentially be included as a decision-maker in said system if they grew strong enough.

We’re not going to go too deep into this specific topic today (as we’ll return to it in a later dev diary), but the gist of it is that countries start the game either Unrecognized or Recognized, and Unrecognized countries have to gain or force recognition in order to properly climb the Rank ladder. The Unrecognized/Recognized system replaces the Civilized/Uncivilized system of Victoria 1 and 2, and a difference from those games is that being an Unrecognized country is purely a Diplomatic status with Diplomatic penalties - a country does not become inherently worse at constructing factories or fighting wars by virtue of being scorned by Metternich and his friends, though many countries with Unrecognized status do also start out on the lower end of the technological scale.

Though it has among the highest Prestige ratings in the world, Great Qing’s status as an Unrecognized Country severely limits its potential rank among the nations of the world
Qing.png

All in all, there are six different ranks that a country can occupy in Victoria 3, as well as a special seventh rank that only applies to Decentralized (non-playable) nations and so isn’t of any real interest to talk about today (please note that the names of some of these may be subject to change):
  • Great Power: These are the most powerful and glorious of nations and often have a global reach, getting involved in far-off conflicts. The most obvious example of a Great Power at the start of the game is Great Britain.
  • Major Power: These are regional powerhouses that often decide the course of conflicts in their home regions and may have a limited global presence. An example of a Major Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
  • Minor Power: These are regional powers that may be important for determining how a local conflict in their home region turns out but are generally irrelevant on the world stage. An example of a Minor Power at the start of the game is Mexico.
  • Insignificant Power: These are nations that generally do not even have the ability to influence the outcome of local conflicts and can be safely ignored by anyone other than other Insignificant Powers in their immediate vicinity. An example of an Insignificant Power at the start of the game is the Free City of Krakow.
  • Unrecognized Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that are powerful and prestigious enough to throw their weight on a regional stage, try to resist the demands of the Recognized powers and to be a potential candidate for recognition. An example of an Unrecognized Power at the start of the game is the Qing Empire.
  • Unrecognized Minor Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that generally lack the power to go up against anyone other than the weakest of Recognized powers, and will often find themselves at the mercy of Great and Major Powers and having to play them against each other to survive. An example of an Unrecognized Minor Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of Nepal.

So then, what benefits do Rank confer? Generally, the higher a country’s Rank, the more Influence capacity it generates (allowing for a greater freedom in conducting diplomacy and signing diplomatic pacts), the more Declared Interests it can support (more on that next week) and the more Maneuvers it has in Diplomatic Plays (more on that in a few weeks). Rank also plays a key role in many other systems such as Subjects, Infamy, Diplomatic Actions and more, some of which we’ll get into in the coming weeks (I know I keep saying that, but bear with me, we’ve only just started on Diplomacy!).

France starts the game as the second Great Power, just behind Britain in Prestige
France - Great Power.png

Prestige, as was mentioned above, plays a central role in all of this. Simply put, Prestige is what determines who gets to occupy what rank in the global pecking order. Unlike in Victoria 1 and Victoria 2, where Prestige was just one of three factors determining what Rank a country had, in Victoria 3 Prestige is the accumulation of all factors that makes a country more or less glorious. In order to become a certain rank, a country must meet the Prestige threshold for that rank, which is based on both how it compares to the global average and percentile-wise compared to the most prestigious country.

To explain what I mean by that, here is a look at the current requirements to be a Great Power:
  • Must be a Recognized country
  • Must not be a Subject of any other nation
  • Must have at least 3 times the average global prestige OR at least 75% of the prestige of the most prestigious nation

This means two things: The number of Great Powers, Major Powers and so on is not fixed to a specific number (as it was in Victoria 1 and 2, where you would always have 8 of each), and that the requirements to maintain and increase your Rank will change over the course of the game. A country might start as a Great Power due to their starting prestige, but then begin quickly falling behind due to economic and military stagnation, eventually being reduced to a Major Power even though their actual Prestige number never went down.

Persia is able to occupy a rank position above what its economy and army can support through considerable investment into the arts
Persia - Prestige.png

So, what is it that can give a country Prestige? The answer is… a whole lot of things! Here’s a look at some of these things, though it’s by no means an exhaustive list:
  • The Tier of a Country (whether it’s considered a City-State, Principality, Kingdom or so on) gives it a little bit of base-level Prestige. This is inherent to a specific nation and can only be increased by forming a new, more glorious nation.
  • Having a large Army gives Prestige, with more Prestige being given based on its ability to both fight effectively and look imposing.
  • Having a large, powerful and impressive-looking Navy gives Prestige to an even greater degree than the Army.
  • The total GDP (and thus indirectly level of industrialization) of a country gives it Prestige.
  • Subjects contribute Prestige to their Suzerain based on their military and economic might.
  • Being a global leader (first, second or third) in the production of a Good gives a country Prestige, with some Goods being more prestigious than others.
  • Building and supporting Art Academies (being a sponsor of the art) gives Prestige.
  • Successful undertaking of certain globally recognized projects, such as undertaking major expeditions to certain regions of the world or the construction of a canal can give a country a permanent increase in its Prestige.

That’s it for today, but we’re of course only getting started on talking about this part of the game, so next week I will return with another dev diary covering several different Diplomacy-related mechanics, namely Relations, Infamy and Interests.
 
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There is a huge difference between frenchness of french republic or britishness of UK and turkishness of Ottoman Empire. Turkey was just most important province and tied to Ottoman origin. Ottoman Empire was a multicultural Turkish-built empire whose language had more vocabulary from Persian and Arabic than actual old Turkish (as far as i know), primary identity during most of Ottoman era was just being Muslim. Don't compare these two issues.
I agree with others that making huge problems with name of GB is baseless and looks like desiring exceptional treatment. If Ottoman Empire wanted to be really correct, it would be called "The Sublime Ottoman State" and somehow I don't see Turks here complaining about that :D
I'm not asking for official country names. I don't think it should be called "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" and I don't think Greece should be called "The Hellenic Republic".
 
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Because that's just a tier issue. Austrian Empire is still Austria. Russian Empire is still Russia. French republic is still France.
It's something different to straight up misrepresent a union. Austria-Hungary isn't Austria. Yugoslavia isn't Serbia. Soviet Union isn't Russia. Czechoslovakia isn't Czechia etc. The UK isn't Great Britain.

My theory is that Paradox decided to go with Great Britain instead of United Kingdom so that the name on the map could stay unchanged even if the player decided to turn the UK into a republic.
And if they didn't people would complain about why the UK got its name change when you change your governmental form while other countries don't.
 
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My theory is that Paradox decided to go with Great Britain instead of United Kingdom so that the name on the map could stay unchanged even if the player decided to turn the UK into a republic.
And if they didn't people would complain about why the UK got its name change when you change your governmental form while other countries don't.

Could also have something to do with there being three nations at game start that are all "united kingdoms" and deciding that britain gets to be THE united kingdom is a little presumptuous for a game where the netherlands, for example, could become the preeminent world power.

Edit: We also shouldn't forget that one of those UKs was overseen by sweden, and for some reason I can't quite put my finger on, that seems like it could be relevant.
 
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As for the discussion about Austria or Prussia being the greater nation at the start of the game I turn to John Breuilly's book "The formation of the first German nation state, 1800-1871". He writes:

About the Austrian economy:
"The generally held assumption for a long time was that Austria had a backward and slow-growth economy. Much recent research, however, has shown this to be misleading." (Breuilly, 1996, p. 38) (he goes on to explain why, but also adds what weakened Austria's eceonomy later on, which was when they unsuccessfully tried to join the Zollverein in the 1850's and again in the 1860's. Prussia was the stumbling block in that case.)

About German culture, early 1800:
"Germany had no dominant cultural centre like London or Paris. Different states promoted their own university towns and capital cities. However, in 1815 most Germans would have chosen Vienna...as the leading German city." "By mid-century Berlin had reached comparable size to Vienna and was beginning to engage in prestige building programmes. Yet in the 1850s Austria, quite consciously as part of her claim to leadership within Germany, began a major rebuilding drive in Vienna comparable to that carried through in Paris at the same time." (Breuilly, 1996, p. 40-41)

About Austrian military power:
After 1815, Austria managed to put herself into the position as the leading German power. "Three things could undermine this achievement: the position in Germany; the relationsship with other major powers; the internal situation of the [Austrian] empire." (Breuilly, 1996, p. 43)

Of note is also that Austrian military budget halved between 1860-1865, at the same times as Prussia modernized much of its military (Breuilly, 1996, p. 44). I.e. just prior to the outbreak of the Austro-Prussian war.

With hindsight it's easy to think that Austria was doomed to walk the path it did (i.e. decline as a major/great power), but that was never an absolute given. Austria has a lot of challenges, starting out in 1836, for sure, but at the time it was not a lesser nation compared to Prussia, and could very well have turned out as the leading German nation at the turn of the century.
 
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Is Prestige affected by factors like anti-slavery sentiment. What if the United States keeps slavery well into the late 19th century, without a successful abolitionist movement? Does the Prestige of the US go down if every other Great Power is anti-slavery or abolitionist towards slavery itself? Or is this negative malus restricted to only diplomatic relations/casus belli/infamy/(future diplo mechanics to be revealed)?

In other words, does falling behind on society tech or cultural accomplishments relative to your peers (or Great Powers) reduce your Prestige? If not, are there any penalties for falling behind?
 
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The US is always possible "sleeping giant" just because of its size and lack of aristocratic and clergy element hindering innovation. It's in game counter balance should be threat of Balkanization if they try to go too op or expand too much along with British being their biggest possible threat in region.

The US like the UK until the world wars had big taboo about having a professional or even standing army as threat to republican system they created. The military is militia and voluntary base for just that reason and left to states especially during early republic. The Europeans before world wars often just thought the Americans were "cowboys", "gangsters", and capitalist barons to self interested to be actual military power or threat which was big miscalculation.

For example, lets say the US has government change of massive ahistorical level. They likely can raise much larger army and navy then lower end great powers in Europe even by 1836. Also they are still one if not largest agriculture sector/producer in world even before industrialization
I agree with most of this. The US magically awakening into its superpower status a century early would/should be restricted by powerful movements that are anti-central government, anti-interventionist, and focused on manifest destiny/internal colonization to the West Coast. These are powerful movements still present today to lesser and greater degrees but they definitely existed in stronger form in the 1800s.

Any player trying to create US into the preeminent superpower of the 1800s should encounter powerful and destabilizing obstacles with these movements.
 

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How will race play into this?

I want some playthroughs where I am Japanese or Africans and get recognized status by Europeans? Also think it would be cool if the ones outside of "European club"/Concert of Europe get some nice flavor and reactions from great powers if they achieve equal status or even pass them.

For example, if Japanese or African power starts just steamrolling some of European powers or take part of Europe they likely make them out as this great threat to western civilization. For Japanese lets say they take Pacific full Man in the High Castle style along with the Far East or other European colonies here them. They might very well depict the Japanese as "Oriental horde of the Seas("Sea Mongols") especially if they are brutal to European pops they take over. Or imagine how much the Europeans would freak out if African Muslim kingdom went full Wakanda and somehow took parts of Europe and even enslaved locals.

The Europeans in Western and Central Europe barely considered Americans and Russians "proper" European stock. Or with religion Turkey still has issues with EU so Ottoman Empire in 1850s that is trying to expand in Europe likely sees all European powers team up against them especially if the Ottomans are stronger ones
Expanding on this, is racism a factor in foreign relations? I understand that Discrimination has powerful effects on internal Pops and economies but does Discrimination (racism of Europeans vs Africans/Asians/Native Americans) affect Great Power relations or foreign relations more generally?

Does it take more of a military/economic accomplishment for say Japan to be recognized by Great Britain vs Prussia (if Prussia was a unrecognized country in 1836)? Does Japan have to push further and win faster and harder than Prussia to be recognized? Would Racism/Discrimination hold back Japan in this case?
 
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I was going to question the US' place on the Great Powers list, but then I realized that the main obstacle to its being taken seriously by the European powers is simply that the US had a policy of not getting involved in Europe.

I wonder how the latter will be represented.
 

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Could also have something to do with there being three nations at game start that are all "united kingdoms" and deciding that britain gets to be THE united kingdom is a little presumptuous for a game where the netherlands, for example, could become the preeminent world power.

Edit: We also shouldn't forget that one of those UKs was overseen by sweden, and for some reason I can't quite put my finger on, that seems like it could be relevant.

How funny it would have been if Paradox had decided to call the "Union between Sweden and Norway", the "United Kingdom" on the map. The reactions on this forum would have been priceless !
 
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Chromosonekaiser

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If the EIC can become a great power, due to it's GDP, military and technology from Britain, does that mean it will have it's own separate market from Britain?

If not, does that mean that Great/Powers can't have their own market if they're under the influence of another market? (in this example, the UK)
 
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Willem IV

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I really have issues with the Great Qing ranked below Luxembourg and Krakow.
The Unrecognised/Recognised idea sounds much better than the Victoria II system indeed.

However I believe that even Unrecognised, the Great Qing should have more diplomatic possibilities than Luxembourg.

I would suggest to have the seven different ranks divided over less tiers.

1. Great Power
2. Major Power
3. Minor Power + Unrecognized Power
4. Insignificant Power + Unrecognized Minor Power *
5. Decentralized Countries

This would allow the Great Qing to diplomatic be on par with Mexico, a force that is still be important in the region.
I don't know the cut between Unrecognized Power and Unrecognized Minor Power, but I could imagine to restrict the first even more.

*(rename them to Insignificant Countries + Unrecognized Countries, as they are not a Power at all)
 
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TempestM

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If the EIC can become a great power, due to it's GDP, military and technology from Britain, does that mean it will have it's own separate market from Britain?

If not, does that mean that Great/Powers can't have their own market if they're under the influence of another market? (in this example, the UK)
They can't become a great power because they are a subject
 
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ISitOnGnomes

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I really have issues with the Great Qing ranked below Luxembourg and Krakow.
The Unrecognised/Recognised idea sounds much better than the Victoria II system indeed.

However I believe that even Unrecognised, the Great Qing should have more diplomatic possibilities than Luxembourg.

I would suggest to have the seven different ranks divided over less tiers.

1. Great Power
2. Major Power
3. Minor Power + Unrecognized Power
4. Insignificant Power + Unrecognized Minor Power *
5. Decentralized Countries

This would allow the Great Qing to diplomatic be on par with Mexico, a force that is still be important in the region.
I don't know the cut between Unrecognized Power and Unrecognized Minor Power, but I could imagine to restrict the first even more.

*(rename them to Insignificant Countries + Unrecognized Countries, as they are not a Power at all)

Until we know what the actual mechanical differences are its all just arguing over terminology.
 
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Wild Boar

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Happy Thursday and welcome to a brand new dev diary for Victoria 3! Today we’re finally switching away from talking about economy and politics and starting on a string of Diplomacy-oriented dev diaries, of which the first is this one, where we’ll be covering Rank and Prestige, two interconnected mechanics that play a very central role in how diplomatic matters play out in the game.

Rank is a mechanic that also existed in both previous Victoria games, and is a measure of how glorious and influential a country is in the eyes of the rest of the world. What Rank a country has - be it a mighty Great Power or a largely irrelevant Unrecognized Power - is determined by two factors: Prestige (which we’ll be explaining below) and Recognition.

When talking about Recognition, it’s important to note that we are not talking about Recognition in the more commonly used term when applying to nations, that is, whether other countries recognize the nation’s independence and existence in the first place. Rather, it is a measure of whether the reigning (probably mostly European) Great Powers, as a whole, see the country as a potential equal, i.e. whether the country could potentially be included as a decision-maker in said system if they grew strong enough.

We’re not going to go too deep into this specific topic today (as we’ll return to it in a later dev diary), but the gist of it is that countries start the game either Unrecognized or Recognized, and Unrecognized countries have to gain or force recognition in order to properly climb the Rank ladder. The Unrecognized/Recognized system replaces the Civilized/Uncivilized system of Victoria 1 and 2, and a difference from those games is that being an Unrecognized country is purely a Diplomatic status with Diplomatic penalties - a country does not become inherently worse at constructing factories or fighting wars by virtue of being scorned by Metternich and his friends, though many countries with Unrecognized status do also start out on the lower end of the technological scale.

Though it has among the highest Prestige ratings in the world, Great Qing’s status as an Unrecognized Country severely limits its potential rank among the nations of the world
View attachment 763225
All in all, there are six different ranks that a country can occupy in Victoria 3, as well as a special seventh rank that only applies to Decentralized (non-playable) nations and so isn’t of any real interest to talk about today (please note that the names of some of these may be subject to change):
  • Great Power: These are the most powerful and glorious of nations and often have a global reach, getting involved in far-off conflicts. The most obvious example of a Great Power at the start of the game is Great Britain.
  • Major Power: These are regional powerhouses that often decide the course of conflicts in their home regions and may have a limited global presence. An example of a Major Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
  • Minor Power: These are regional powers that may be important for determining how a local conflict in their home region turns out but are generally irrelevant on the world stage. An example of a Minor Power at the start of the game is Mexico.
  • Insignificant Power: These are nations that generally do not even have the ability to influence the outcome of local conflicts and can be safely ignored by anyone other than other Insignificant Powers in their immediate vicinity. An example of an Insignificant Power at the start of the game is the Free City of Krakow.
  • Unrecognized Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that are powerful and prestigious enough to throw their weight on a regional stage, try to resist the demands of the Recognized powers and to be a potential candidate for recognition. An example of an Unrecognized Power at the start of the game is the Qing Empire.
  • Unrecognized Minor Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that generally lack the power to go up against anyone other than the weakest of Recognized powers, and will often find themselves at the mercy of Great and Major Powers and having to play them against each other to survive. An example of an Unrecognized Minor Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of Nepal.

So then, what benefits do Rank confer? Generally, the higher a country’s Rank, the more Influence capacity it generates (allowing for a greater freedom in conducting diplomacy and signing diplomatic pacts), the more Declared Interests it can support (more on that next week) and the more Maneuvers it has in Diplomatic Plays (more on that in a few weeks). Rank also plays a key role in many other systems such as Subjects, Infamy, Diplomatic Actions and more, some of which we’ll get into in the coming weeks (I know I keep saying that, but bear with me, we’ve only just started on Diplomacy!).

France starts the game as the second Great Power, just behind Britain in Prestige
View attachment 763226
Prestige, as was mentioned above, plays a central role in all of this. Simply put, Prestige is what determines who gets to occupy what rank in the global pecking order. Unlike in Victoria 1 and Victoria 2, where Prestige was just one of three factors determining what Rank a country had, in Victoria 3 Prestige is the accumulation of all factors that makes a country more or less glorious. In order to become a certain rank, a country must meet the Prestige threshold for that rank, which is based on both how it compares to the global average and percentile-wise compared to the most prestigious country.

To explain what I mean by that, here is a look at the current requirements to be a Great Power:
  • Must be a Recognized country
  • Must not be a Subject of any other nation
  • Must have at least 3 times the average global prestige OR at least 75% of the prestige of the most prestigious nation

This means two things: The number of Great Powers, Major Powers and so on is not fixed to a specific number (as it was in Victoria 1 and 2, where you would always have 8 of each), and that the requirements to maintain and increase your Rank will change over the course of the game. A country might start as a Great Power due to their starting prestige, but then begin quickly falling behind due to economic and military stagnation, eventually being reduced to a Major Power even though their actual Prestige number never went down.

Persia is able to occupy a rank position above what its economy and army can support through considerable investment into the arts
View attachment 763227
So, what is it that can give a country Prestige? The answer is… a whole lot of things! Here’s a look at some of these things, though it’s by no means an exhaustive list:
  • The Tier of a Country (whether it’s considered a City-State, Principality, Kingdom or so on) gives it a little bit of base-level Prestige. This is inherent to a specific nation and can only be increased by forming a new, more glorious nation.
  • Having a large Army gives Prestige, with more Prestige being given based on its ability to both fight effectively and look imposing.
  • Having a large, powerful and impressive-looking Navy gives Prestige to an even greater degree than the Army.
  • The total GDP (and thus indirectly level of industrialization) of a country gives it Prestige.
  • Subjects contribute Prestige to their Suzerain based on their military and economic might.
  • Being a global leader (first, second or third) in the production of a Good gives a country Prestige, with some Goods being more prestigious than others.
  • Building and supporting Art Academies (being a sponsor of the art) gives Prestige.
  • Successful undertaking of certain globally recognized projects, such as undertaking major expeditions to certain regions of the world or the construction of a canal can give a country a permanent increase in its Prestige.

That’s it for today, but we’re of course only getting started on talking about this part of the game, so next week I will return with another dev diary covering several different Diplomacy-related mechanics, namely Relations, Infamy and Interests.
Can we have historical dynasties in this game? My mod the sun never sets has all the coding for each royal family already. You could use that. Also will we have the ability to rename regiments?
 
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