Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #16 - States

[harold lorre]

The most important thing I've taken away from this is that the American flag dynamically changes depending on the number of states. I wonder what the capped out flag looks like?

it is not an easy thing until now no paradox game has ever managed to make such a complex game!yes flags, borders, languages, religions, states, governments, the products on the market should also change according to time and history.

 

[Nibbes]

more space should be given to individual cities than to fixed maps, because borders always change according to governments: cities can be on either side of the border depending on the time. by the way, can the names of cities and states and regions be changed? , for example if for some reason history changes and Washington loses the role of capital and the status of dc is useless in an alternative line,

DC is interesting because it use to include parts of Virginia to form a prefect square. The US put DC in location as compromise between the north and south states. Virginia use to be most populous, wealthy, influential colony/later state out of the original 13. Also most presidents from there. Creating new city also was very symbolic to the "new republic". It does not favor any specific state of original 13. Same reason star spangle banner was eventually chosen over Hail Columbia(associated with New England). Washington DC is original swamp lands so without the political importance it likely stays rural wetlands or ghost town but post construction is importance is still big.

For example, if the US Balkanizes whoever has DC has most credibility to claim "successor state" status of US if it does not exist anymore or someone like CSA takes it(makes it extremely hard for them to pull off full re-unification under south and AI not pick it 99.99 percent of time to prevent nonsense). DC is purely political city is only reason it is even thing. The unofficial economic capitals of US during this time is New York. Philly and Boston second and third until Chicago grows to take second place later on. If the North picks capital outside of DC is is likely Philly.

The issue with US pre civil war the "Dixie" culture even with being outclass in industry and population has a very disproportional amount of political influence. The US pre-civil war arguable has two "primary cultures" especially depending who president or controls congress. One reason the north pushed for 3/5 of person because they found it unfair a bunch of southern landowners and slavers were counting people that lack ability to vote or freedom as citizens. Even less whites percentage wise could vote in south compared to the north. So you have "Junker situation" somewhat especially with many taking positions of importance and renown in military(many made name for themselves in Mexican American War). You have very plutocratic and oligarch republic in south. If you had more slave states would "Dixie" not be de facto primary culture by default by highly upset north(alt civil war but north).

In Europe cities did take more political considerations while US outside of DC is largely economic and geographic based design. Germany even if unified has "imperial cities" and republic city states along with different monarchs within it.

Many cities out west for example do not grow to big until air conditioning and water pipelines could be built out there. LA is naturally a desert which is why San Francisco use to be more important.

 

[harold lorre]

DC is interesting because it use to include parts of Virginia to form a prefect square. The US put DC in location as compromise between the north and south states. Virginia use to be most populous, wealthy, influential colony/later state out of the original 13. Also most presidents from there. Creating new city also was very symbolic to the "new republic". It does not favor any specific state of original 13. Same reason star spangle banner was eventually chosen over Hail Columbia(associated with New England). Washington DC is original swamp lands so without the political importance it likely stays rural wetlands or ghost town but post construction is importance is still big.

For example, if the US Balkanizes whoever has DC has most credibility to claim "successor state" status of US if it does not exist anymore or someone like CSA takes it(makes it extremely hard for them to pull off full re-unification under south and AI not pick it 99.99 percent of time to prevent nonsense). DC is purely political city is only reason it is even thing. The unofficial economic capitals of US during this time is New York. Philly and Boston second and third until Chicago grows to take second place later on. If the North picks capital outside of DC is is likely Philly.

The issue with US pre civil war the "Dixie" culture even with being outclass in industry and population has a very disproportional amount of political influence. The US pre-civil war arguable has two "primary cultures" especially depending who president or controls congress. One reason the north pushed for 3/5 of person because they found it unfair a bunch of southern landowners and slavers were counting people that lack ability to vote or freedom as citizens. Even less whites percentage wise could vote in south compared to the north. So you have "Junker situation" somewhat especially with many taking positions of importance and renown in military(many made name for themselves in Mexican American War). You have very plutocratic and oligarch republic in south. If you had more slave states would "Dixie" not be de facto primary culture by default by highly upset north(alt civil war but north).

In Europe cities did take more political considerations while US outside of DC is largely economic and geographic based design. Germany even if unified has "imperial cities" and republic city states along with different monarchs within it.

Many cities out west for example do not grow to big until air conditioning and water pipelines could be built out there. LA is naturally a desert which is why San Francisco use to be more important.

but from the technical point of view of the game the maps as conceived up to now by paradox in victory, eu hoi, are outdated because they do not take into account the infinite possibilities of changing political, territorial and economic borders that upset the real chronology, creating scenarios unpredictable alternatives. so we must first rethink the maps and improve the ai!

 

[Celdur]

Is the Map final? because that image for Peru and Lima in particular is heartbreaking. Lima (the city) is a huge coastal plain watered by 3 rivers composed of many valley's. And the coast in general, from Ica (region to the south of Lima) all the way north to the border with Ecuador is littered with many green valleys and a slim coastal plain which form the heart of Peruvian culture and today most of the population live there. The key characteristic is that its completely different from the Andes, since its very flat, has easy access to the sea and even though it doesn't rain much its extremely fertile, because its not a "normal" desert. Which is why you only need water to grow massive amounts of crops, which the Andes provide so long as you channel them with infrastructure works, as the ancient peoples did for thousands of years, and we do today.

Lima is in fact the largest of the flat valleys of the whole country and has access to the best natural harbor, which is Callao, and it also has access to valleys that cut through the Andes and make it possible to reach the Andean cities and cropland, it is for all this reasons that its heartbreaking to see it depicted as a green smudge next to mountainous deserts without any connection to anything other than the sea.

Can something be done about this? and can i help fix it?

 

[Aspen Yang]

I wonder that will Victoria 3 have the same modeling or character modeling system as Crusader kings III? I believe that there are many Chinese players who want it (at least sth. like the modeling of the soldier in EU4), because the characters on this cover have too many stereotypes(like the conical hat with Vietnamese style and it is too longer than real size, unknown square hats which are not a Manchu style nor Chinses style) against the Chinese people. Although the Chinese people are not very disgusted with this kind of stereotype, I think most Chinese players want to change this character and image, especially those who want to make a mod about the Ming Dynasty. It is because many people in China wonder "if the Manchu rebellion did not succeed, would the Ming Dynasty people who were more interested in science and technology and hot weapons change China's history". Therefore, there will be a lot of people or "moder" who want a character modeling system or program.

 

[hilmar]

Why do you assume that provinces are empty?

"We don't have province mechanics on this level - nothing is built on the province level." From Wizzington on page 1.

 

[Spartakusbund]

"We don't have province mechanics on this level - nothing is built on the province level." From Wizzington on page 1.

Not being able to build in provinces is not the same thing as a province being empty. In that same post, Wiz says urban centers are present on the map. Certainly other things are too. Your assumption that provinces are meaningless isn’t a very good one.

 

[hilmar]

Not being able to build in provinces is not the same thing as a province being empty. In that same post, Wiz says urban centers are present on the map. Certainly other things are too. Your assumption that provinces are meaningless isn’t a very good one.

Urban centers without pops, please dont remind me. And I had such high hopes for this game

 

[Spartakusbund]

Urban centers without pops, please dont remind me. And I had such high hopes for this game

Urban centers… without POPs. Okay. Sure.

 

[Deathknight15]

Urban centers without pops, please dont remind me. And I had such high hopes for this game

What are you talking about? We already know the urban centers give jobs to pops. Also, the factories and such you build are obviously present there as well (where else would they be?). Those are full of pops working too...?

 

[unmerged(760025)]

What are you talking about? We already know the urban centers give jobs to pops. Also, the factories and such you build are obviously present there as well (where else would they be?). Those are full of pops working too...?

I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. If pops are only handled on a state level then knowing the global population of one of your city is going to be complicated maybe even impossible if you have several urban centers in the same state. Sure for the pops working inside factories I may be able to find the information about how many works in each factory and then make the addition but it's going to be kinda annoying to do and what about shopkeepers and soldiers ? How do I know which ones came from Los Angeles and which ones came from San Francisco ?
In Victoria 2 when I wanted to know the population of one of my cities, I just had to click on the province and look at the number, that was easier.

 

[Baneslave]

In Victoria 2 when I wanted to know the population of one of my cities, I just had to click on the province and look at the number, that was easier.

Victoria 2 did not have urban and rural Pop split, so strictly speaking this is not rue.

 

[unmerged(760025)]

Victoria 2 did not have urban and rural Pop split, so strictly speaking this is not rue.

Alright, but it gave you a general idea. In Victoria 2 when you clicked on the province of San Francisco and saw that the number was around 600 000 people you knew that it had become a massive city. On the contrary, sometimes you saw that a city that had historically become a major urban center had stayed a small town in your game. Sure, it was useless information to have but it gave the game some flavour. Personally, in Victoria 2, I liked to look at population's density to see where were the major cities of my country and of the various great powers.
If in Victoria 3 the only information we have when it comes to population is on state level I will simply not be as invested and will probably only look at it when it's necessary to do it. For example, during a war, to know which state I need to occupy first to hinder my enemy ability to conscript his population into his armies (if such a mechanism is present in the game).

And I understand that it was done to help the game run more smoothly but it still a shame that we are losing small details like that.

 

[Deathknight15]

I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. If pops are only handled on a state level then knowing the global population of one of your city is going to be complicated maybe even impossible if you have several urban centers in the same state. Sure for the pops working inside factories I may be able to find the information about how many works in each factory and then make the addition but it's going to be kinda annoying to do and what about shopkeepers and soldiers ? How do I know which ones came from Los Angeles and which ones came from San Francisco ?
In Victoria 2 when I wanted to know the population of one of my cities, I just had to click on the province and look at the number, that was easier.

I see what you are saying, but I stand by my post. The guy is being rather histrionic by claiming cities are "empty" just because we don't have an exact measure of how many people are in each city province. It's just bizarre and the type of melodramatic criticism of the game that is getting so tiresome.

 

[hilmar]

I see what you are saying, but I stand by my post. The guy is being rather histrionic by claiming cities are "empty" just because we don't have an exact measure of how many people are in each city province. It's just bizarre and the type of melodramatic criticism of the game that is getting so tiresome.

The provinces are empty for information, no one lives there, no resources are there, nothing can be built there, the devs have made it clear that everything is moved to state level. The only information on provinces i have seen so far is that they are divided into urban and rural categories. If anyone has more information please do tell. If not then i would consider them as empty. Opinions may vary, but i will leave it at that.

For people that have not played other Vic games, perhaps it can be hard to understand why this is a big deal. The key feature of Victoria games have always been the pops, the devs have previously used the term "national gardening" which describes it well. By moving the pops to a state level it SEVERELY coarsens everything about the pops. Think of it like removing all the counts from CK or removing 80% of the provinces in EU, its the same game you play but it will feel very empty. Unless you reduce the state size to a Vic2 province size, things like differences in culture and religion for the balkans will be woefully inadequate.

For me the game simply loses its charm without province pops and will be a no-buy unless it can be rectified by a mod. This is a shame since the other dev diaries have looked very good and Vic2 was my favorite paradox game. I have played paradox games since EU1 and have frequented the forums since they started, but this is the first time i have felt a need to post on it, so yes this is a big deal for me. The worst part is that I dont see the reason for this change. It was possible in 2003 and in 2010, why is not possible today? The only reason i can think of for using a HOI style map with tiny provinces is warfare. That does not make sense for a Vicky game, especially as the devs have presented warfare as optional and not a necessity to enjoy the game.

 

[Deathknight15]

The provinces are empty for information, no one lives there, no resources are there, nothing can be built there, the devs have made it clear that everything is moved to state level. The only information on provinces i have seen so far is that they are divided into urban and rural categories. If anyone has more information please do tell. If not then i would consider them as empty. Opinions may vary, but i will leave it at that.

For people that have not played other Vic games, perhaps it can be hard to understand why this is a big deal. The key feature of Victoria games have always been the pops, the devs have previously used the term "national gardening" which describes it well. By moving the pops to a state level it SEVERELY coarsens everything about the pops. Think of it like removing all the counts from CK or removing 80% of the provinces in EU, its the same game you play but it will feel very empty. Unless you reduce the state size to a Vic2 province size, things like differences in culture and religion for the balkans will be woefully inadequate.

For me the game simply loses its charm without province pops and will be a no-buy unless it can be rectified by a mod. This is a shame since the other dev diaries have looked very good and Vic2 was my favorite paradox game. I have played paradox games since EU1 and have frequented the forums since they started, but this is the first time i have felt a need to post on it, so yes this is a big deal for me. The worst part is that I dont see the reason for this change. It was possible in 2003 and in 2010, why is not possible today? The only reason i can think of for using a HOI style map with tiny provinces is warfare. That does not make sense for a Vicky game, especially as the devs have presented warfare as optional and not a necessity to enjoy the game.

The only thing it coarsens compared to vic 2 really is culture layout. This is not a minor downside, but I can see why they have done it for technical and game design reasons.

What other features were tied to province level, really? RGOs were at the province level, but the way they functioned meant they might as well have been at the State level. Factories, national focuses, state admin percentage, soldier limits, peace deals, everything else was at the STATE level.

I think some people need to go back and actually play Vic 2 again, the provinces were nearly irrelevant.

Still I don't quite understand why resources and buildings aren't placed on a province level in Vic 3, since pops would still be at the state level, the buildings could be used by proxy to maintain information about where the pops are.

 

[Baneslave]

The worst part is that I dont see the reason for this change. It was possible in 2003 and in 2010, why is not possible today?

Performance, gameplay and development resource reasons likely.

Doing those calculations on province level would multiply amount of most Pops and Buildings massively. Migration calculations too, as Pops would need to be moved inside the state too and consider different provinces when migrating. And seeing HoI4s and Stellaris end game performance issues I am not exactly surprised that devs decided to go with less performance intensive option.

Each province having their own Buildings (or at least some of them, like resource producing ones) would also multiply the players management tasks too. It would also cause problems with granularity of resource Buildings, as splitting 237k farm lands to 25 provinces might mean that some provinces can't build any farms at all, or it would require splitting farm Buildings in even smaller sizes.

One option would be having Buildings at state level and Pops at province level, but that sounds bad compromise too, with bad parts from both.

 

[Spartakusbund]

The provinces are empty for information, no one lives there, no resources are there, nothing can be built there, the devs have made it clear that everything is moved to state level. The only information on provinces i have seen so far is that they are divided into urban and rural categories. If anyone has more information please do tell. If not then i would consider them as empty. Opinions may vary, but i will leave it at that.

For people that have not played other Vic games, perhaps it can be hard to understand why this is a big deal. The key feature of Victoria games have always been the pops, the devs have previously used the term "national gardening" which describes it well. By moving the pops to a state level it SEVERELY coarsens everything about the pops. Think of it like removing all the counts from CK or removing 80% of the provinces in EU, its the same game you play but it will feel very empty. Unless you reduce the state size to a Vic2 province size, things like differences in culture and religion for the balkans will be woefully inadequate.

For me the game simply loses its charm without province pops and will be a no-buy unless it can be rectified by a mod. This is a shame since the other dev diaries have looked very good and Vic2 was my favorite paradox game. I have played paradox games since EU1 and have frequented the forums since they started, but this is the first time i have felt a need to post on it, so yes this is a big deal for me. The worst part is that I dont see the reason for this change. It was possible in 2003 and in 2010, why is not possible today? The only reason i can think of for using a HOI style map with tiny provinces is warfare. That does not make sense for a Vicky game, especially as the devs have presented warfare as optional and not a necessity to enjoy the game.

Yes, nobody has ever played any other Victoria games besides for you. Thank you for your wisdom.

 

[Spartakusbund]

Still I don't quite understand why resources and buildings aren't placed on a province level in Vic 3, since pops would still be at the state level, the buildings could be used by proxy to maintain information about where the pops are.

Because then you would need to split up each POP for each province/building, which would quickly turn into a resource hog.

 

[Deathknight15]

Because then you would need to split up each POP for each province/building, which would quickly turn into a resource hog.

Would you? Why not just keep the current model of a pop for each building type in each state regardless of which provinces they are divided in. If we ever need to know the number of pops in a province, we can grab that number by scaling proportionally based on the number of buildings in the individual province.

The pops are still at the state level, but we get more information about where they are. Not totally sure its worth the effort, but with some finagling it might work to reverse engineer pop locations and cultural dispersion in a state better.