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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #15 - Slavery

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It’s Thursday again, which means it’s time for another Victoria 3 development diary. Today’s subject of slavery is a rather heavy one, being both one of the most significant political issues of the Victorian era as well a story of untold suffering on a human level. For this reason, before I start getting into the mechanics of slavery I want to briefly explain our philosophy behind its representation in Victoria 3.

Slavery is, obviously, a horrific crime against humanity and precisely for this reason, many games that have a slavery-related setting or mechanics will either leave it out of the game or abstract it into something that’s less ‘on the nose’ (for example by simply applying some form of economic bonus at the expense of decreased stability). For Victoria 3, we don’t think these options work for us for two main reasons.

The first reason is that as I mentioned before, it was an important political issue of the day and was a major catalyst for several significant conflicts, most notably the American Civil War which would be bizarrely contextless if slavery did not play a significant role in the game. The other, and most important reason, is that through our Pop system we are trying to represent every individual human on the planet from 1836, so what statement would we be making if we simply wrote all enslaved individuals out of history, or reduced them into an abstract set of modifiers?

Instead, our aim is to try and represent the institution, systems and causes of slavery, as well as the people who lived under and fought against it, as close to history as we can get it. We simply believe this to be the most respectful way for us to handle this topic, as well as the way that’s most true to the game Victoria 3 aspires to be. With that said, let’s get into the actual mechanics of how slavery and slave pops function in Victoria 3.

As was mentioned in the Employment and Qualifications dev diary, slaves are what Victoria 2 would have called a ‘Pop Type‘ and Victoria 3 calls a ‘Profession‘, but function in a significantly different way from other Pops. For one, slaves do not get hired with the enticement of a wage and do not have the freedom to choose the place they work. Slaves also aren’t just able to stop being slaves by switching their Profession to one that does offer a wage and freedom of movement.

These Slaves are given the bare minimum of goods not to starve, resulting in a very slight population increase over time but a generally miserable existence for the people that make up the Pop
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Buildings that ‘employ’ slaves also do so in a way that differs from the way they employ other Professions. The gist of how this works is that in a state that has slaves, certain buildings (for example plantations) that employ laborers or peasants can fill each available position for those Professions with either a laborer/peasant or a slave. As an example, a Cotton Plantation in a slave state that has the capacity to employ 4000 laborers could fill that capacity with 2240 slaves and 1760 laborers, 4000 laborers and 0 slaves, or any other combination of the two less or equal to 4000. Generally buildings will prefer acquiring slaves over hiring free laborers whenever possible for the economic benefits it brings.

So what are those economic benefits? Well, first, it should be understood that said economic benefits are mostly for the owners of the building, meaning a bunch of wealthy aristocrats in the case of Cotton Plantations. Instead of paying wages, each building decides a standard of living based on factors such as laws and profitability and purchases the ‘necessary’ goods for that target standard of living. This target SoL may not always be at the level of outright starvation but is never going to be anything but a very basic existence.

The cost to purchase said goods is simply added as a building expense and is virtually always going to be cheaper than employing paid labor, which translates into lower costs, higher profits and increased dividends for the building owners. Slaves also do not pay taxes in any form, so if the government wants to convert those profits into revenue, they have to do so through the various forms of wealth-based taxes that are always going to be deeply unpopular with the powerful elite.

These Tobacco plantations on Cuba have fully replaced the usual Laborer workforce with Slaves instead, leading to greater wealth for the Aristocrats
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However, there is one economic advantage to slavery that goes a little beyond just enriching aristocrats: Slave pops have a higher ratio of workforce to dependents than other pops, meaning that a population of 100k slaves can supply the labor needs of a greater number of buildings than a population of 100k laborers. The key thing here is of course that not all buildings can utilize slaves, so this isn’t going to be doing any good for an industrialized manufacturing economy, but a country that aims to keep its economy agriculture/plantation-focused and suffers from a labor shortage may find the brutal economics of slavery to work in its favor, if they’re willing to stomach the human cost and stamp down on any resistance.

So what of that resistance? Well, given that slavery is founded entirely on human misery, slaves are naturally not going to be content with their lot in life, and will attempt to resist by whatever means are available to them. Mechanically this translates into a steady stream of radicalized slaves and the threat of turmoil and slave uprisings. This threat to a slave society can usually be averted with sufficiently repressive measures, but fear and violence is not a good foundation for a completely stable country.

Of course, resistance to slavery doesn’t just come from the slaves themselves, but also from Abolitionists, both internally in your country (in the form of characters and Interest Groups with the Abolitionist ideology) and externally in the form of Abolitionist-led countries that may hinder or put pressure on slave regimes that aren’t strong enough to resist them. The most notable historical example here being Britain and its naval efforts to stamp out the trans-atlantic slave trade in the 19th century.

With the explanation out of the way, let’s talk about slavery laws. These are what govern who (if anyone) is enslaved or emancipated and where (if anywhere) slavery can exist in your country. They are as follows:

Slavery Abolished: The law that most countries with advanced economies start with. Under this law, slavery is completely illegal and on its passage any slave pops in the country are immediately emancipated and converted into laborers. If a country with this law comes into possession of land where slaves are living, said slaves are also immediately emancipated as above.

Debt Slavery: This law is meant to represent traditional systems of generally debt-based slavery, present in a number of economically less advanced and/or decentralized countries. Under Debt Slavery, Pops of low Wealth levels will gradually create a trickle of new slaves (with poorer pops converting into slaves at a higher rate), as individuals sell themselves or others into slavery for economic reasons such as debt repayment. However, under this system, children born to slaves are born free, so slave populations will not grow by themselves.

Slave Trade: This law is meant to represent the kind of widespread chattel slavery practised in places such as Brazil and Cuba. Under Slave Trade, the children of slaves are born as slaves and new slaves can also be imported from abroad. We’ll not go over exactly how slave import works today, but the gist of it is that slaves can be imported from decentralized countries that practice slavery if the importer has an established Interest in the region (more on Interests at a later point).

Legacy Slavery: This law is meant to represent countries that have made slave trade illegal but not abolished it altogether, most notably the United States of America. Under Legacy Slavery, the country is divided into Free States and Slave States. In Free States, slavery is illegal and everything functions exactly as if the country had the Slavery Abolished law, while Slave States function as though they had the Slave Trade law with the notable exception that new slaves cannot be imported from abroad. Under this law, slaves also tend to have a slightly higher standard of living for the simple reason that a starving slave population isn’t demographically sustainable. This law also plays an important role in how the American Civil War functions in the game, but that’s a topic for a later dev diary.

The United States starts the game with the Legacy Slavery law. Surely, nothing will go wrong if they start trying to abolish it right away?
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Since slavery laws function just like any other laws, it is possible for them to change in different ways: a country with Slave Trade may follow the US example and change to Legacy Slavery as a compromise alternative to abolishing it altogether, and a country that has fully abolished slavery can even try to bring it back. Given that no country in history actually re-legalized chattel slavery after abolishing it, this is very difficult to do (once abolished there will generally be a strong anti-slavery bastion in a country that aren’t going to look kindly on such proposals). Of course, trying to abolish slavery isn’t likely to happen without resistance either - those wealthy aristocrats who benefit from it have a vested interest in defending it, after all.

Lyman Beecher, leader of the Devout Interest Group in the United States, is an ardent opponent of slavery

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On that note, we’ve reached the end of this dev diary, though we’ll return a bit to this topic in the future when we talk about diplomacy (which isn’t that far away now!). Next week we’re going to go over the system of States and their related mechanics such as State Regions, Split States and Turmoil.
 
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So will Vicky III more accurately reflect these realities?
Pops being freed won't give them Wealth, Qualifications, or cultures that they didn't have before, so they're very likely to be poor, have few job prospects other than returning to the same industries where they were enslaved, and still face discrimination. Of course, if your government provides welfare, free public schools, and a minimum wage, and cracks down on discrimination, you can put your former slaves on a significantly more even keel with everybody else, but those services are expensive.

Or, will there be an option for "transitionary laws" that will allow a nation to abolish slavery in stages?
I don't think any have been mentioned. Industries that are well-off will grant slaves slightly better standards of living, and it might be possible (though probably very inefficient) to encourage them to do so by subsidizing the industry. It also isn't totally clear to me how slaves will interact with social services such as public healthcare; that might be a way to ease their plight without actually freeing them.

But eventually, if you want to give people better lives, you have to hit the big red "ban slavery" button.
 
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Pops being freed won't give them Wealth, Qualifications, or cultures that they didn't have before, so they're very likely to be poor, have few job prospects other than returning to the same industries where they were enslaved, and still face discrimination. Of course, if your government provides welfare, free public schools, and a minimum wage, and cracks down on discrimination, you can put your former slaves on a significantly more even keel with everybody else, but those services are expensive.


I don't think any have been mentioned. Industries that are well-off will grant slaves slightly better standards of living, and it might be possible (though probably very inefficient) to encourage them to do so by subsidizing the industry. It also isn't totally clear to me how slaves will interact with social services such as public healthcare; that might be a way to ease their plight without actually freeing them.

But eventually, if you want to give people better lives, you have to hit the big red "ban slavery" button.
It should be pretty difficult to implement a welfare state if you have slavery. I can’t imagine landowners would be in favor of those institutions, and slavery will mean they have a lot of money and thus political clout.

I do think it would be good if there was a way to implement freedom of the womb and other forms of gradual emancipation. Most of South America was still in the process of ending slavery at game start.
 
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It should be pretty difficult to implement a welfare state if you have slavery. I can’t imagine landowners would be in favor of those institutions, and slavery will mean they have a lot of money and thus political clout.
Probably; it depends on what other political factors are happening in your country. If you have a large industrializing workforce they might be demanding those same reforms at the same time that landowners are resisting them. I was contemplating the opposite situation, though - where ending slavery (and dealing with the angry landowners, possibly via civil war) leads to more popular support for welfare programs, sort of a "Reconstruction gone right" scenario.
 

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Probably; it depends on what other political factors are happening in your country. If you have a large industrializing workforce they might be demanding those same reforms at the same time that landowners are resisting them. I was contemplating the opposite situation, though - where ending slavery (and dealing with the angry landowners, possibly via civil war) leads to more popular support for welfare programs, sort of a "Reconstruction gone right" scenario.
I was referring to your second paragraph. I should have made that clearer by cutting down the amount of your post I quoted.

I agree that Reconstruction should provide the US player with the opportunity to socialize their country and avoid the excesses of the Gilded Age. I hope we get some unique content to that effect.
 

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One aspect I found a little odd in Vicky II was that slavery could be abolished with a single click once the criteria were met and it was as if slavery was never a thing, when in reality you would suddenly have a massive segment of the population that is predominately illiterate or under skilled compared to pops in a similar economic situation, and thus vulnerable to very predatory practices from employers. At the same time you have huge swaths of capitalists and aristocrats that suddenly are without free labor. IRL the US ended slavery with essentially the same 'ease,' but only after fighting a massive war that destroyed the economic infrastructure of the formerly slave-holding region, and with 600K men that would have otherwise been laborers in the economy dead, thus there was a demand for the supply of emancipated people, and an opportunity to rebuild the industry on a model that would take advantage of that same demand.

So will Vicky III more accurately reflect these realities?

For example: If you end slavery with a click of a button, your nation will suddenly face a humanitarian and economic crisis as now the nation has to find a way to integrate these people into the normal economic system, and neighboring nations see a massive influx of now freed former slaves in a wave of immigration. Things that would give everyone horrendous negative modifiers for years or even decades, leading to civil unrest for essentially the rest of the game.

Or, will there be an option for "transitionary laws" that will allow a nation to abolish slavery in stages? Things like regulations that affect standards of living for slaves, coercing slave owners to either pay ruinous fines, spend more money to give their slaves better housing, health care, and education, or reduce their numbers of slaves and hire laborers to make up the difference, thus reducing the severity and the duration of the negative modifiers when the player eventually clicks the button to abolish it out right.

Abolitionists will be pissy, but at least it gives the game a viable middle ground route for eventual abolition.
The other point is that passing a law should not be the same as actually enforcing it. If the government's control is too weak, then abolition will have no practical effect.
It should be pretty difficult to implement a welfare state if you have slavery. I can’t imagine landowners would be in favor of those institutions, and slavery will mean they have a lot of money and thus political clout.

I do think it would be good if there was a way to implement freedom of the womb and other forms of gradual emancipation. Most of South America was still in the process of ending slavery at game start.
Why would slave-owning landowners necessarily oppose a welfare system for the free population? That's pretty much what happened in Rome.
I agree that Reconstruction should provide the US player with the opportunity to socialize their country and avoid the excesses of the Gilded Age. I hope we get some unique content to that effect.
Why would that be the case? Reconstruction only affects the southern states, and it isn't really connected to the industrial capitalists.

Also, I don't think Reconstruction going 'right' should necessarily have an entirely positive effect for the US. It should be possible to maintain the status of the Afro-American population by federal diktat, but the cost of this would be that the Dixie population are permanently alienated and have no reason to regard the US as anything more than a foreign conqueror.
 
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No you are right! Debt Slavery can enslave anyone regardless of Discrimination status. Discrimination matters for the importation of Slaves under Slave Trade, which tends to lead to countries with Slave Trade having large quantities of Slaves that are also Discriminated.
I know this sensitive topic but how does slavery, discriminated groups, and general ethnic or regional identities play into? For example, I imagine most whites in United States even if for slavery or indifferent to it would still oppose and even might become hostiles if you start enslaving Europeans. Will the game have ethnic "families" like other paradox games? For example, you have Africans, Europeans, Native Americans, and Asians as the major general ones. The Americas also has increased mixing especially in places like Mexico which reshapes identities and laws. Racial and caste laws play major role across the Americas in this period. For example, if the south/confederates or US pre civil war took over Mexico they might restate a caste system along with slavery to appeal to Creole elites and groups(Europeans and mix people there especially landowners) as basis of local support. Will there be a laws that covers the racial categorization as well? Like who can and cannot be enslaved? Which groups are allowed to migrate into country vs not(as freemen if slavery is still around or Chinese exclusion act)? If you allow mix and Creole population to own slaves and be citizens(represents more "fluid" and less rigid hierarchies like Brazil)?

I am just worried the US or somewhere in Americas might end up with most random slaves from most random parts of the world. Like a bunch of random slaves from the Middle East and Asia instead of Africa or other American countries. Someone on here mentioned putting commodity to slaves which you stated would be hard but distance and price of travel actual applies more in consideration for slaves then immigrants.

Also will there be "acculturation" of mechanic for slaves? For example, slaves and Africans will not assimilate to "Yankee" or "Dixie" culture overtime but majority or dominant "slave culture"/demographic of the state/region/country. This can only change if the country after slavery becomes more multiracial/equal after slavery(kind of like Mexico post caste system). Will race and ethnic identities be separate?

Also, Will there be a indenture/debt labor system that plays the same role as serfdom for "New World" republics or more capitalist societies like the US? It would be less tied to land but more living conditions(poor living conditions equal going into debt). Like serfdom you can ban it too. The US also had company towns and sharecropping/tenet farming as capitalist equivalent of serfdom. Although serfdom could represent labor dynamics better in Europe or "old world" in general.

The US pre Civil War is borderline confederation at times and barely federalized. States can have nearly as many different laws as two neighboring European countries. This is important in slave trade and debates in US because of the issue of slaves crossing state lines especially into free states. Also, racial and slave laws can vary in some states as well.
 
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They're exclusive.

Buildings that has enough room to purchase Slaves will first try to draw from Slave populations local to the state. If none qualify, and the country has Slave Trade, they can cause a transfer of Slave populations from a country with Debt Slavery in a region where they have an Interest, which is something we'll talk about another time.
Why are they exclusive? I am thinking of Japanese Empire especially in the 30s and ww2. Let's say Japanese get colony Africa. Debt slavery would only apply to other Asians while Africans are under slave trade status. Also some slaves likely cannot be imported to home islands and same goes for most debt labor. Also, didn't the Islamic world and Africa often have both? The "slave trade" applying to more discriminated or conquered groups vs debt slavery often anyone domestically selling themselves into slavery due to debt.

Additionally, with the more "classical" versions of slavery like seen in Africa or Islamic world will there be more religion component to slavery at times? Or even Catholic or Christian nation deciding slavery of Christian(exception being first generation enslaved) is illegal but not of non-Christians like it was in some past eras?
 

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Why would slave-owning landowners necessarily oppose a welfare system for the free population? That's pretty much what happened in Rome.
The land owning elite in Rome had to be dragged into that kicking and screaming. Look at what the Senate did to the guy who implemented a regular bread dole.
Why would that be the case? Reconstruction only affects the southern states, and it isn't really connected to the industrial capitalists.
Not if it increases the authority of the Federal Government over property instead of doing the opposite, as happened historically. The 14th Amendment was quickly used by the Supreme Court to uphold the idea of Corporate Personhood and limit the power of the government to interfere in the affairs of the industrial elite.
Also, I don't think Reconstruction going 'right' should necessarily have an entirely positive effect for the US. It should be possible to maintain the status of the Afro-American population by federal diktat, but the cost of this would be that the Dixie population are permanently alienated and have no reason to regard the US as anything more than a foreign conqueror.
A big portion of the South was sympathetic to Reconstruction initially. These were the reviled "scallywags", and while they were drawn from all classes of society they were especially concentrated among the lower classes who bought into the Republican idea of "Vote Yourself A Farm." When this didn't actually happen (and in fact the Panic of 1873 lead to a loss of what little freeholding existed in the South) they turned on it. In an alternate Reconstruction, where the big estates are broken up and redistributed to both white and black farmers, that wouldn't necessarily happen.
 
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The land owning elite in Rome had to be dragged into that kicking and screaming. Look at what the Senate did to the guy who implemented a regular bread dole.

Not if it increases the authority of the Federal Government over property instead of doing the opposite, as happened historically. The 14th Amendment was quickly used by the Supreme Court to uphold the idea of Corporate Personhood and limit the power of the government to interfere in the affairs of the industrial elite.

A big portion of the South was sympathetic to Reconstruction initially. These were the reviled "scallywags", and while they were drawn from all classes of society they were especially concentrated among the lower classes who bought into the Republican idea of "Vote Yourself A Farm." When this didn't actually happen (and in fact the Panic of 1873 lead to a loss of what little freeholding existed in the South) they turned on it. In an alternate Reconstruction, where the big estates are broken up and redistributed to both white and black farmers, that wouldn't necessarily happen.
Using example of Bismarck and Junkers along with some British conservatives you often see the "old guard"(the traditional monarchs, clergy, and aristocrats) cater to idea of welfare state more so then industrialist or capitalist. These groups especially appealed to rural lower class especially the clergy which often provided primitive healthcare especially Catholics. Industrialization in south often involved mechanization of agricultural sector instead of urbanization in north post civil war and reconstruction. One reason the culture stayed more agrarian mindset and politics.

Promotion of the welfare state from the right wing or conservatives will often originate from religious organizations/groups or circles at least until the fascist pop up in game. The clergy especially lower rank and daily ones are often from lower classes themselves and often sympathize with them. Many of peasants especially rural are also still some of most religious people/groups still in Christian world. That is often clergy support basis until Soviets were success in 1917 which saw clergy now more at odds with Marxist to win over rural minds. Before 1917, Marxism is largely restricted to urban labors and intellectual circles which is why they are weak in influence in most places until you industrialized
 

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Using example of Bismarck and Junkers along with some British conservatives you often see the "old guard"(the traditional monarchs, clergy, and aristocrats) cater to idea of welfare state more so then industrialist or capitalist. These groups especially appealed to rural lower class especially the clergy which often provided primitive healthcare especially Catholics. Industrialization in south often involved mechanization of agricultural sector instead of urbanization in north post civil war and reconstruction. One reason the culture stayed more agrarian mindset and politics.

Promotion of the welfare state from the right wing or conservatives will often originate from religious organizations/groups or circles at least until the fascist pop up in game. The clergy especially lower rank and daily ones are often from lower classes themselves and often sympathize with them. Many of peasants especially rural are also still some of most religious people/groups still in Christian world. That is often clergy support basis until Soviets were success in 1917 which saw clergy now more at odds with Marxist to win over rural minds. Before 1917, Marxism is largely restricted to urban labors and intellectual circles which is why they are weak in influence in most places until you industrialized
Southern plantation owners didn't even want the government to build roads or schools. You think they would have supported the government redistributing wealth to "poor white trash"?
 
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Southern plantation owners didn't even want the government to build roads or schools. You think they would have supported the government redistributing wealth to "poor white trash"?
If rebellion or opposition from them became bad enough yes. Those people are basically the "muscle" and often military force behind their regime along with much more armed and violent then European counterparts. These "peasants" have guns instead of pitchforks.

Also that is myth. The southern plantation owner are still "bourgeoisie" even if they own land and like to pretend to be nobles unlike Europe those they can still go broke and lose their status in one family generation. Andrew Johnson and Confederate vets(largely poorer whites) did purge a lot of plantation owners after war too who they also blame for war. Classical liberals like Jefferson and most southerners never opposed public schools and infrastructure like roads or railroads. These two are some of the only major public funding even capitalist are for in US throughout its history.

That was some European aristocrats and churches who opposed such things. The landowners down south just wanted it on "their terms" and had high amount of nepotism/cronyism. They do not mind funding by state and if they get "cash" to do as they please. Basically what often made north anger especially its industrialist is they often tried to have it both ways with federal government. Just because they do not support welfare public schools and infrastructure is some of only major national level projects at times. The issue in US is federal vs regional interests/leverage on power
 

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If rebellion or opposition from them became bad enough yes. Those people are basically the "muscle" and often military force behind their regime along with much more armed and violent then European counterparts. These "peasants" have guns instead of pitchforks.
I agree that if ahistorical conditions arise then the Southern Planter elite might respond ahistorically.
Also that is myth. The southern plantation owner are still "bourgeoisie" even if they own land and like to pretend to be nobles unlike Europe those they can still go broke and lose their status in one family generation. Andrew Johnson and Confederate vets(largely poorer whites) did purge a lot of plantation owners after war too who they also blame for war. Classical liberals like Jefferson and most southerners never opposed public schools and infrastructure like roads or railroads. These two are some of the only major public funding even capitalist are for in US throughout its history.

That was some European aristocrats and churches who opposed such things. The landowners down south just wanted it on "their terms" and had high amount of nepotism/cronyism. They do not mind funding by state and if they get "cash" to do as they please. Basically what often made north anger especially its industrialist is they often tried to have it both ways with federal government. Just because they do not support welfare public schools and infrastructure is some of only major national level projects at times. The issue in US is federal vs regional interests/leverage on power
It's not merely a matter of Federal vs. State power. Public schooling in the North was done entirely on the state level. It could have been done in the South as well, but it wasn't. Southern politically leaders briefly supported a greater role for the state following the War of 1812. This did not even last until the end of the Era of Good Feelings. John C. Calhoun went from supporting projects like the Cumberland road to opposing them, along with most of the rest of the plantation elite. There is a reason why the literacy rate in the North was higher and the railroad network was much more extensive.
 

Jamaican Castle

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I know this sensitive topic but how does slavery, discriminated groups, and general ethnic or regional identities play into? For example, I imagine most whites in United States even if for slavery or indifferent to it would still oppose and even might become hostiles if you start enslaving Europeans.
In order to import slaves under Slave Trade (or I think to keep them under Legacy Slavery, I'm a little hazy about that), their culture needs to be discriminated against. There are apparently also culture families that might make it harder to discriminate against related cultures; I don't think the details of that have been revealed.

Also, Will there be a indenture/debt labor system that plays the same role as serfdom for "New World" republics or more capitalist societies like the US? It would be less tied to land but more living conditions(poor living conditions equal going into debt). Like serfdom you can ban it too. The US also had company towns and sharecropping/tenet farming as capitalist equivalent of serfdom.
Just because your pops aren't literally held in slavery or serfdom doesn't mean they're well-treated. There are a wide variety of labor laws (including serfdom at one extreme) and no doubt most of them will allow some manner or other of capitalistic exploitation of your lower classes. Without help from welfare policies, Peasant and Laborer pops don't have a great chance of landing Qualifications that will let them truly thrive. (Which can be a big problem for you if you need more Engineers...)
 

hazard151

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Pops being freed won't give them Wealth, Qualifications, or cultures that they didn't have before, so they're very likely to be poor, have few job prospects other than returning to the same industries where they were enslaved, and still face discrimination. Of course, if your government provides welfare, free public schools, and a minimum wage, and cracks down on discrimination, you can put your former slaves on a significantly more even keel with everybody else, but those services are expensive.

Take time, too. Although it should be remembered that, after the US Civil War there were actually a lot of former slaves that ended up successfully starting a business or successfully entered politics. It took the South several decades and good deal of violence to install the Jim Crow policies that ended up reestablishing the societal controls and positions of the antebellum Southern society.

It would be possible to oppose such a course in game, of course, but it'd be expensive, and might well trigger a second US Civil War a couple of decades after the matter of slavery is decided to make clear that no, such abuse and discrimination will not be tolerated.
 

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I agree that if ahistorical conditions arise then the Southern Planter elite might respond ahistorically.

It's not merely a matter of Federal vs. State power. Public schooling in the North was done entirely on the state level. It could have been done in the South as well, but it wasn't. Southern politically leaders briefly supported a greater role for the state following the War of 1812. This did not even last until the end of the Era of Good Feelings. John C. Calhoun went from supporting projects like the Cumberland road to opposing them, along with most of the rest of the plantation elite. There is a reason why the literacy rate in the North was higher and the railroad network was much more extensive.
Again the issue with southern elites and plantation owners is more nepotism and cronyism along with pride, impulsiveness, and stubbornness. For example, presidents like Andrew Jackson would oppose policy or project he originally supported or promoted to just spite political opponent. Even when he still supported policy or idea if not for person currently pushing for it. They are literally dueling each other and bringing violence into politics which upset northern industrialist who saw such behavior as barbaric. The caning of summers turn much of north public against the south and helped Lincoln and republicans gain political power.

Property rights can be mix bang at times especially for older parts of US. The "old money" and rural communities in south often are some of oldest white settlers in Americas. One reason many currently identify as "American" because they cannot remember their European roots due to how long they been here(most southern whites are largely Protestant Celtic people in origins. Scot-Irish and Welsh being big two). Much of the south especially in Appalachia and more swampy Lowcountry were original American frontier and not far removed from that at game start. So you often end up with large landowners especially due to climate attracting less Europeans.

Do not know if the game with cover this but with exception of some Iberians and Italian(Mediterranean people in general) most Europeans especially Northern Europeans drop like flies from yellow fever and climate even in places like lowlands in Tennessee and especially Carolinas. The Midwest had more Germans settle it for climate reasons too. Before air conditioning and modern medicine the south is less livable for some Europeans until they brought African slaves to clear out parts of it. Even Irish indenture labor died to fast in penal colonies like Georgia(was penal colony before revolution). Memphis white population during reconstruction for example along with parts of New Orleans got completely de urbanized by yellow fever pandemic. The Black population was nowhere near as impacted vs whites who fled to countryside or mountains to get away from it. It likely has to sickle cell trait which Africans and only some Mediterranean have(explains why Iberians are less impacted by same diseases then European counterparts in Isles. Also these groups were more exposed to malaria in Old World as well).

The reason this is important the south ends up with some whites who do settle there especially ones who establish roots owning large acres of land and people/slaves. They like to pretend to be "aristocrats" but are often petty barons and capitalist in raw resources. Just agrarian and traditionalist in mindsets. They are "first banana republics" for the US in its trade relationship with the north. Also oligarchy and less democratic then northern states due to wealth restrictions on voting and political power.

These barons will act more out of pride and political interests at times then northern industrialist who are often more pragmatic and business minded. A independent south would risk becoming modern Sparta(large military needed to maintain states from slave revolts).

Best way I can describe it is your dealing with "boss hog" from Duke of Hazards types of crooks instead of Rockefeller or Ford characters you see up north. Like Boss Hog their pride if often counterproductive or putting appearances and political considerations over purely economic ones like more capitalist Yankee counterparts
 
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In order to import slaves under Slave Trade (or I think to keep them under Legacy Slavery, I'm a little hazy about that), their culture needs to be discriminated against. There are apparently also culture families that might make it harder to discriminate against related cultures; I don't think the details of that have been revealed.


Just because your pops aren't literally held in slavery or serfdom doesn't mean they're well-treated. There are a wide variety of labor laws (including serfdom at one extreme) and no doubt most of them will allow some manner or other of capitalistic exploitation of your lower classes. Without help from welfare policies, Peasant and Laborer pops don't have a great chance of landing Qualifications that will let them truly thrive. (Which can be a big problem for you if you need more Engineers...)
True, but Your second paragraph about living conditions brings up interesting question. Is the game going to separate individual freedoms from social safety nets which last game often lump together inaccurately. For example, a serf in some places can have guarantee rights to shelter and food unlike random peasant or indenture labor in Americas but politically and legally is still more bound to lord or land. Or how American slaves often have more food then peasants or old world counterparts because US had benefit of just being largest agricultural producer in the world even then along with slaves being close by to food and crops. Some slaves did get treated like "pets" or "prized animals" because they are treated like livestock often times in south. If the slave is rebellious they have no issue with physical or overtop punishments but rather not leave last marks or damage that increases their "value" and work output. Its like German fable about starving wolf vs well fed pet dog. The wolf is starving but at least is free unlike dog with a leash.

Also, ironically the ban on slave trade improve conditions for slaves because owners in Americans could not be reckless with their lives without costing them money due to the simple fact it now cost them more to do so. If the south can still import slaves or reopen it with Africa then "value" of slaves and their lives goes down by a lot.

Historically, debt slavery often had skill labors. They just often were able to buy back their freedom at some point. The only reason the south did not causally use slaves in mines, railroads, and factories like they did plantations on large scale is because such work is a lot more dangerous and self damaging. For example, mine companies would send people into caves before donkeys because donkey cost them more then those wage labor lives. If the south is importing slaves from Africa more would be used to railroads and factories. Without slave trade cheap wage labor is more encouraged naturally.

So the living conditions and treatment can depend on current economic situation and welfare policy which does not have to always equal political enfranchisement. But when times get "hard" guess which groups likely get the short stick and no aid from government so in game counter balance to avoid is being OP
 

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No Emancipation instead of outright abolishing Slavery immediately? No Domestic Slavery representation? Not even non-economic reasons to buy slaves like the feeling of Prestige or Decadence?
Frankly as a descendant of Slaves (and slavers too for that matter) and as someone who studies Slavery in University i feel deeply disappointed and frustrated from this
 
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No Emancipation instead of outright abolishing Slavery immediately? No Domestic Slavery representation? Not even non-economic reasons to buy slaves like the feeling of Prestige or Decadence?
Frankly as a descendant of Slaves (and slavers too for that matter) and as someone who studies Slavery in University i feel deeply disappointed and frustrated from this
I’d like to see an internal market for slaves even in those countries that don’t import slaves from abroad. That would allow for the kind of conspicuous consumption of slaves you’re talking about here. POPs above a certain wealth level could demand slaves for domestic labor and as a status symbol. I asked about a market for slaves earlier and lachek said that might come back to the system post-launch
There will not be an internal slave trade system, at least not at launch. It is something we really do want to add in, because as you say it is an important dynamic to consider when trying to fully deconstruct the economic beneficiaries and political support for the institution of slavery. But it's one thing to represent that there is a slave trade going on through moving people around the world in response to laws and economic demand, and a whole other quagmire to actually represent people with price tags on them - in an economics-focused game - in a way that doesn't trivialize the topic. So we might go there eventually if we can find a good way to represent it, but for the moment we've accepted not being able to model this.
I would also like to see a more complex, dynamic system, but I understand where the Devs are coming from. Beyond the potential to trivialize the topic that lachek mentioned in this post, there’s a lot of mechanical difficulties to overcome. Making a POP into a good is tricky, especially since goods are not durable in Vicky 3 and slaves kind of have to be.

The thing you raise that doesn’t have to do with this issue is gradual emancipation. I would also like to see that implemented, especially since it seems like they already have the tools to do it. Debt Slavery already makes it so POPs are born free.

I’m not sure if it ever would have been possible for the United States to embark on gradual emancipation on the federal level, as I think any attempt to do so just would have lead to Civil War, and in turn to immediate abolition. But there were states within the Union and plenty of nations in the New World that did phase out slavery over time.
 
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Is there a way to bring slavery back? I dont know if this was answered previously but if do a long campaign and wanting to just mess around with the game.
Like Playing GB perhaps and bringing slavery back in 1870 just make a alternate history?
Or is race based slavery represented in the game?