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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #15 - Slavery

dd15.png

It’s Thursday again, which means it’s time for another Victoria 3 development diary. Today’s subject of slavery is a rather heavy one, being both one of the most significant political issues of the Victorian era as well a story of untold suffering on a human level. For this reason, before I start getting into the mechanics of slavery I want to briefly explain our philosophy behind its representation in Victoria 3.

Slavery is, obviously, a horrific crime against humanity and precisely for this reason, many games that have a slavery-related setting or mechanics will either leave it out of the game or abstract it into something that’s less ‘on the nose’ (for example by simply applying some form of economic bonus at the expense of decreased stability). For Victoria 3, we don’t think these options work for us for two main reasons.

The first reason is that as I mentioned before, it was an important political issue of the day and was a major catalyst for several significant conflicts, most notably the American Civil War which would be bizarrely contextless if slavery did not play a significant role in the game. The other, and most important reason, is that through our Pop system we are trying to represent every individual human on the planet from 1836, so what statement would we be making if we simply wrote all enslaved individuals out of history, or reduced them into an abstract set of modifiers?

Instead, our aim is to try and represent the institution, systems and causes of slavery, as well as the people who lived under and fought against it, as close to history as we can get it. We simply believe this to be the most respectful way for us to handle this topic, as well as the way that’s most true to the game Victoria 3 aspires to be. With that said, let’s get into the actual mechanics of how slavery and slave pops function in Victoria 3.

As was mentioned in the Employment and Qualifications dev diary, slaves are what Victoria 2 would have called a ‘Pop Type‘ and Victoria 3 calls a ‘Profession‘, but function in a significantly different way from other Pops. For one, slaves do not get hired with the enticement of a wage and do not have the freedom to choose the place they work. Slaves also aren’t just able to stop being slaves by switching their Profession to one that does offer a wage and freedom of movement.

These Slaves are given the bare minimum of goods not to starve, resulting in a very slight population increase over time but a generally miserable existence for the people that make up the Pop
2021_09_14_2.png

Buildings that ‘employ’ slaves also do so in a way that differs from the way they employ other Professions. The gist of how this works is that in a state that has slaves, certain buildings (for example plantations) that employ laborers or peasants can fill each available position for those Professions with either a laborer/peasant or a slave. As an example, a Cotton Plantation in a slave state that has the capacity to employ 4000 laborers could fill that capacity with 2240 slaves and 1760 laborers, 4000 laborers and 0 slaves, or any other combination of the two less or equal to 4000. Generally buildings will prefer acquiring slaves over hiring free laborers whenever possible for the economic benefits it brings.

So what are those economic benefits? Well, first, it should be understood that said economic benefits are mostly for the owners of the building, meaning a bunch of wealthy aristocrats in the case of Cotton Plantations. Instead of paying wages, each building decides a standard of living based on factors such as laws and profitability and purchases the ‘necessary’ goods for that target standard of living. This target SoL may not always be at the level of outright starvation but is never going to be anything but a very basic existence.

The cost to purchase said goods is simply added as a building expense and is virtually always going to be cheaper than employing paid labor, which translates into lower costs, higher profits and increased dividends for the building owners. Slaves also do not pay taxes in any form, so if the government wants to convert those profits into revenue, they have to do so through the various forms of wealth-based taxes that are always going to be deeply unpopular with the powerful elite.

These Tobacco plantations on Cuba have fully replaced the usual Laborer workforce with Slaves instead, leading to greater wealth for the Aristocrats
2021_09_14_1.png

However, there is one economic advantage to slavery that goes a little beyond just enriching aristocrats: Slave pops have a higher ratio of workforce to dependents than other pops, meaning that a population of 100k slaves can supply the labor needs of a greater number of buildings than a population of 100k laborers. The key thing here is of course that not all buildings can utilize slaves, so this isn’t going to be doing any good for an industrialized manufacturing economy, but a country that aims to keep its economy agriculture/plantation-focused and suffers from a labor shortage may find the brutal economics of slavery to work in its favor, if they’re willing to stomach the human cost and stamp down on any resistance.

So what of that resistance? Well, given that slavery is founded entirely on human misery, slaves are naturally not going to be content with their lot in life, and will attempt to resist by whatever means are available to them. Mechanically this translates into a steady stream of radicalized slaves and the threat of turmoil and slave uprisings. This threat to a slave society can usually be averted with sufficiently repressive measures, but fear and violence is not a good foundation for a completely stable country.

Of course, resistance to slavery doesn’t just come from the slaves themselves, but also from Abolitionists, both internally in your country (in the form of characters and Interest Groups with the Abolitionist ideology) and externally in the form of Abolitionist-led countries that may hinder or put pressure on slave regimes that aren’t strong enough to resist them. The most notable historical example here being Britain and its naval efforts to stamp out the trans-atlantic slave trade in the 19th century.

With the explanation out of the way, let’s talk about slavery laws. These are what govern who (if anyone) is enslaved or emancipated and where (if anywhere) slavery can exist in your country. They are as follows:

Slavery Abolished: The law that most countries with advanced economies start with. Under this law, slavery is completely illegal and on its passage any slave pops in the country are immediately emancipated and converted into laborers. If a country with this law comes into possession of land where slaves are living, said slaves are also immediately emancipated as above.

Debt Slavery: This law is meant to represent traditional systems of generally debt-based slavery, present in a number of economically less advanced and/or decentralized countries. Under Debt Slavery, Pops of low Wealth levels will gradually create a trickle of new slaves (with poorer pops converting into slaves at a higher rate), as individuals sell themselves or others into slavery for economic reasons such as debt repayment. However, under this system, children born to slaves are born free, so slave populations will not grow by themselves.

Slave Trade: This law is meant to represent the kind of widespread chattel slavery practised in places such as Brazil and Cuba. Under Slave Trade, the children of slaves are born as slaves and new slaves can also be imported from abroad. We’ll not go over exactly how slave import works today, but the gist of it is that slaves can be imported from decentralized countries that practice slavery if the importer has an established Interest in the region (more on Interests at a later point).

Legacy Slavery: This law is meant to represent countries that have made slave trade illegal but not abolished it altogether, most notably the United States of America. Under Legacy Slavery, the country is divided into Free States and Slave States. In Free States, slavery is illegal and everything functions exactly as if the country had the Slavery Abolished law, while Slave States function as though they had the Slave Trade law with the notable exception that new slaves cannot be imported from abroad. Under this law, slaves also tend to have a slightly higher standard of living for the simple reason that a starving slave population isn’t demographically sustainable. This law also plays an important role in how the American Civil War functions in the game, but that’s a topic for a later dev diary.

The United States starts the game with the Legacy Slavery law. Surely, nothing will go wrong if they start trying to abolish it right away?
2021_09_14_3.png

Since slavery laws function just like any other laws, it is possible for them to change in different ways: a country with Slave Trade may follow the US example and change to Legacy Slavery as a compromise alternative to abolishing it altogether, and a country that has fully abolished slavery can even try to bring it back. Given that no country in history actually re-legalized chattel slavery after abolishing it, this is very difficult to do (once abolished there will generally be a strong anti-slavery bastion in a country that aren’t going to look kindly on such proposals). Of course, trying to abolish slavery isn’t likely to happen without resistance either - those wealthy aristocrats who benefit from it have a vested interest in defending it, after all.

Lyman Beecher, leader of the Devout Interest Group in the United States, is an ardent opponent of slavery

2021_09_14_5.png

On that note, we’ve reached the end of this dev diary, though we’ll return a bit to this topic in the future when we talk about diplomacy (which isn’t that far away now!). Next week we’re going to go over the system of States and their related mechanics such as State Regions, Split States and Turmoil.
 
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Zavaleta

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All those talking about slavery under communism need to realize that forced labor in 20th century communist dictatorships was a form of penal labor (justified by criminal law), not chattel slavery under which humans were a form of property. Under penal labor, criminals are not property per se, but stripped of *former* rights due to criminal acts (rightly justified or not). Slavery in Victoria 3, as presented, simulates chattel slavery. A different system (not yet discussed by the devs) would be necessary to simulate gulags or other historical forms of penal labor (important for the British Empire for example).
 
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superfckweed

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How exactly does discrimination work? Do I choose which pops my government discriminates against or are they preset? Also if I choose which pops to discriminate against do they have to historically make sense? Could I theoretically as the United States discriminate against Protestant Yankees?
 

Baneslave

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To be honest, I wouldn't be against having "Penal Labour" as another Slavery law option.

The effects would be very similar to "Debt Slavery" law, as in that poverty is major factor on when Pops convert to Slaves. Additional sources of this conversion would be Radicalism (in repressive political systems) and culture being Discriminated against. Similarly children of Slaves are born free and Slavery is not permanent (but this is mostly academic detail at the detail level Victoria 3 has).

In practice forced labour from prisoners is very similar to slavery: Enslaved are paid nothing (/pittance), do the labour they are told to do, go where owners / government takes them and so on.

The main question is: Would Paradox be willing to take that step and say that forced prison labour is very much like slavery?

Well, no matter what Paradox thinks about that, I think that this kind of mod will pop up very soon after the release.
 
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To be honest, I wouldn't be against having "Penal Labour" as another Slavery law option.

The effects would be very similar to "Debt Slavery" law, as in that poverty is major factor on when Pops convert to Slaves. Additional sources of this conversion would be Radicalism (in repressive political systems) and culture being Discriminated against. Similarly children of Slaves are born free and Slavery is not permanent (but this is mostly academic detail at the detail level Victoria 3 has).

In practice forced labour from prisoners is very similar to slavery: Enslaved are paid nothing (/pittance), do the labour they are told to do, go where owners / government takes them and so on.

The main question is: Would Paradox be willing to take that step and say that forced prison labour is very much like slavery?

Well, no matter what Paradox thinks about that, I think that this kind of mod will pop up very soon after the release.
I’m not opposed to it either, but it seems tricky to pull off. Who would Penal Slaves’ dependents be? How would you simulate the POP getting out of jail (even Gulags released people, after all). Would other prisoners be modeled too, or just those being forced to work?

These aren’t necessarily insurmountable problems, but I wouldn’t blame Paradox for concentrating on other things.
 
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To be honest, I wouldn't be against having "Penal Labour" as another Slavery law option.

The effects would be very similar to "Debt Slavery" law, as in that poverty is major factor on when Pops convert to Slaves. Additional sources of this conversion would be Radicalism (in repressive political systems) and culture being Discriminated against. Similarly children of Slaves are born free and Slavery is not permanent (but this is mostly academic detail at the detail level Victoria 3 has).

In practice forced labour from prisoners is very similar to slavery: Enslaved are paid nothing (/pittance), do the labour they are told to do, go where owners / government takes them and so on.

The main question is: Would Paradox be willing to take that step and say that forced prison labour is very much like slavery?

Well, no matter what Paradox thinks about that, I think that this kind of mod will pop up very soon after the release.
If you run something like this in the same category, you will run into problems with the game mechanics pretty quickly:
- the pops would be slaves.
- The opponents of slavery would automatically also be opponents of prison labor.


You can run something like that through the category of the legal system. Of course, it also presupposes the introduction of crime as a factor.
 
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They could add slavery laws that are exclusive for communists and fascists similar to debt slavery but instead enslavement of radicals after communist takeovers like the capitalist, aristocrats and farmers who own land and factories. Since they will have high unrest for losing all their wealth and power most will just start counter revolt as radicals if not in prisons or enslaved.
Fascists on the other hand could exclusive enslaved hated groups or do extreme discrimination.
But really this depends and how they handle suppression laws. Like do you just build prisons and can you set prisons laws where prisoners are treated like slaves,serfs or "Penal Labour"? or do you send bad radicals to Australia?
 
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Thanks for having the intestinal fortitude to deal with one of humanities' biggest flaws and issues.
Please continue to wear flame retardant clothing during the launch when the temperature on this will rightly and wrongly hit boiling.
It's a delicate subject and I appreciate the difficulty in fairly dealing with the issues, and yes it was a huge issue in Victorian Times.
I hope we all learn to be better people from understanding the mistakes of the past, and how they were solved.

A slow moving oxcart.



It’s Thursday again, which means it’s time for another Victoria 3 development diary. Today’s subject of slavery is a rather heavy one, being both one of the most significant political issues of the Victorian era as well a story of untold suffering on a human level. For this reason, before I start getting into the mechanics of slavery I want to briefly explain our philosophy behind its representation in Victoria 3.

Slavery is, obviously, a horrific crime against humanity and precisely for this reason, many games that have a slavery-related setting or mechanics will either leave it out of the game or abstract it into something that’s less ‘on the nose’ (for example by simply applying some form of economic bonus at the expense of decreased stability). For Victoria 3, we don’t think these options work for us for two main reasons.

The first reason is that as I mentioned before, it was an important political issue of the day and was a major catalyst for several significant conflicts, most notably the American Civil War which would be bizarrely contextless if slavery did not play a significant role in the game. The other, and most important reason, is that through our Pop system we are trying to represent every individual human on the planet from 1836, so what statement would we be making if we simply wrote all enslaved individuals out of history, or reduced them into an abstract set of modifiers?

Instead, our aim is to try and represent the institution, systems and causes of slavery, as well as the people who lived under and fought against it, as close to history as we can get it. We simply believe this to be the most respectful way for us to handle this topic, as well as the way that’s most true to the game Victoria 3 aspires to be. With that said, let’s get into the actual mechanics of how slavery and slave pops function in Victoria 3.

As was mentioned in the Employment and Qualifications dev diary, slaves are what Victoria 2 would have called a ‘Pop Type‘ and Victoria 3 calls a ‘Profession‘, but function in a significantly different way from other Pops. For one, slaves do not get hired with the enticement of a wage and do not have the freedom to choose the place they work. Slaves also aren’t just able to stop being slaves by switching their Profession to one that does offer a wage and freedom of movement.

These Slaves are given the bare minimum of goods not to starve, resulting in a very slight population increase over time but a generally miserable existence for the people that make up the Pop
View attachment 756677

Buildings that ‘employ’ slaves also do so in a way that differs from the way they employ other Professions. The gist of how this works is that in a state that has slaves, certain buildings (for example plantations) that employ laborers or peasants can fill each available position for those Professions with either a laborer/peasant or a slave. As an example, a Cotton Plantation in a slave state that has the capacity to employ 4000 laborers could fill that capacity with 2240 slaves and 1760 laborers, 4000 laborers and 0 slaves, or any other combination of the two less or equal to 4000. Generally buildings will prefer acquiring slaves over hiring free laborers whenever possible for the economic benefits it brings.

So what are those economic benefits? Well, first, it should be understood that said economic benefits are mostly for the owners of the building, meaning a bunch of wealthy aristocrats in the case of Cotton Plantations. Instead of paying wages, each building decides a standard of living based on factors such as laws and profitability and purchases the ‘necessary’ goods for that target standard of living. This target SoL may not always be at the level of outright starvation but is never going to be anything but a very basic existence.

The cost to purchase said goods is simply added as a building expense and is virtually always going to be cheaper than employing paid labor, which translates into lower costs, higher profits and increased dividends for the building owners. Slaves also do not pay taxes in any form, so if the government wants to convert those profits into revenue, they have to do so through the various forms of wealth-based taxes that are always going to be deeply unpopular with the powerful elite.

These Tobacco plantations on Cuba have fully replaced the usual Laborer workforce with Slaves instead, leading to greater wealth for the Aristocrats
View attachment 756678

However, there is one economic advantage to slavery that goes a little beyond just enriching aristocrats: Slave pops have a higher ratio of workforce to dependents than other pops, meaning that a population of 100k slaves can supply the labor needs of a greater number of buildings than a population of 100k laborers. The key thing here is of course that not all buildings can utilize slaves, so this isn’t going to be doing any good for an industrialized manufacturing economy, but a country that aims to keep its economy agriculture/plantation-focused and suffers from a labor shortage may find the brutal economics of slavery to work in its favor, if they’re willing to stomach the human cost and stamp down on any resistance.

So what of that resistance? Well, given that slavery is founded entirely on human misery, slaves are naturally not going to be content with their lot in life, and will attempt to resist by whatever means are available to them. Mechanically this translates into a steady stream of radicalized slaves and the threat of turmoil and slave uprisings. This threat to a slave society can usually be averted with sufficiently repressive measures, but fear and violence is not a good foundation for a completely stable country.

Of course, resistance to slavery doesn’t just come from the slaves themselves, but also from Abolitionists, both internally in your country (in the form of characters and Interest Groups with the Abolitionist ideology) and externally in the form of Abolitionist-led countries that may hinder or put pressure on slave regimes that aren’t strong enough to resist them. The most notable historical example here being Britain and its naval efforts to stamp out the trans-atlantic slave trade in the 19th century.

With the explanation out of the way, let’s talk about slavery laws. These are what govern who (if anyone) is enslaved or emancipated and where (if anywhere) slavery can exist in your country. They are as follows:

Slavery Abolished: The law that most countries with advanced economies start with. Under this law, slavery is completely illegal and on its passage any slave pops in the country are immediately emancipated and converted into laborers. If a country with this law comes into possession of land where slaves are living, said slaves are also immediately emancipated as above.

Debt Slavery: This law is meant to represent traditional systems of generally debt-based slavery, present in a number of economically less advanced and/or decentralized countries. Under Debt Slavery, Pops of low Wealth levels will gradually create a trickle of new slaves (with poorer pops converting into slaves at a higher rate), as individuals sell themselves or others into slavery for economic reasons such as debt repayment. However, under this system, children born to slaves are born free, so slave populations will not grow by themselves.

Slave Trade: This law is meant to represent the kind of widespread chattel slavery practised in places such as Brazil and Cuba. Under Slave Trade, the children of slaves are born as slaves and new slaves can also be imported from abroad. We’ll not go over exactly how slave import works today, but the gist of it is that slaves can be imported from decentralized countries that practice slavery if the importer has an established Interest in the region (more on Interests at a later point).

Legacy Slavery: This law is meant to represent countries that have made slave trade illegal but not abolished it altogether, most notably the United States of America. Under Legacy Slavery, the country is divided into Free States and Slave States. In Free States, slavery is illegal and everything functions exactly as if the country had the Slavery Abolished law, while Slave States function as though they had the Slave Trade law with the notable exception that new slaves cannot be imported from abroad. Under this law, slaves also tend to have a slightly higher standard of living for the simple reason that a starving slave population isn’t demographically sustainable. This law also plays an important role in how the American Civil War functions in the game, but that’s a topic for a later dev diary.

The United States starts the game with the Legacy Slavery law. Surely, nothing will go wrong if they start trying to abolish it right away?
View attachment 756679

Since slavery laws function just like any other laws, it is possible for them to change in different ways: a country with Slave Trade may follow the US example and change to Legacy Slavery as a compromise alternative to abolishing it altogether, and a country that has fully abolished slavery can even try to bring it back. Given that no country in history actually re-legalized chattel slavery after abolishing it, this is very difficult to do (once abolished there will generally be a strong anti-slavery bastion in a country that aren’t going to look kindly on such proposals). Of course, trying to abolish slavery isn’t likely to happen without resistance either - those wealthy aristocrats who benefit from it have a vested interest in defending it, after all.

Lyman Beecher, leader of the Devout Interest Group in the United States, is an ardent opponent of slavery

View attachment 756680
On that note, we’ve reached the end of this dev diary, though we’ll return a bit to this topic in the future when we talk about diplomacy (which isn’t that far away now!). Next week we’re going to go over the system of States and their related mechanics such as State Regions, Split States and Turmoil.
 
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GeneralJosephWolseley

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Slaves, meanwhile, are people that are considered legal property directly. They have zero mobility and no economic self-governance at all, with their needs supplied at the whim of their owners. They also differ in that Slaves must be Discriminated populations, while Peasants do not have to be.
I may have overlooked things in previous dev diaries, but are there different forms of discimination? Can slavery be restricted to only some discriminated pops? A particular case can be native americans in the US. I am not sure exactly how this was regulated in real life, but there was not a significant native american slave population as far as I know. In the spanish colonies this was outlawed because of the work of Bartolme de las Casas. The native americans were still discriminated against, but it was illegal to keep them in outright slavery as was legal for african-americans.


Anyway, impressive work as always. Keep up the good work!
 

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Thread unlocked.
If you want to have a history debate, take it to the history forum.
 
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Thread unlocked.
If you want to have a history debate, take it to the history forum.
Reposting this so it shows up if only dev posts are selected.
And to reiterate, there will now be zero tolerance for any off topic (Not DIRECTLY related to the game) discussion in this thread.
 

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They could add slavery laws that are exclusive for communists and fascists similar to debt slavery but instead enslavement of radicals after communist takeovers like the capitalist, aristocrats and farmers who own land and factories. Since they will have high unrest for losing all their wealth and power most will just start counter revolt as radicals if not in prisons or enslaved.
Fascists on the other hand could exclusive enslaved hated groups or do extreme discrimination.
But really this depends and how they handle suppurations laws. Like do you just build prisons and can you set prisons laws where prisoners are treated like slaves,serfs or "Penal Labour"? or do you send bad radicals to Australia?
Why should it be exclusive for communists/fascists when Tsarist Russia also sent dissidents to labor camps and into exile?
 
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View attachment 756676
It’s Thursday again, which means it’s time for another Victoria 3 development diary. Today’s subject of slavery is a rather heavy one, being both one of the most significant political issues of the Victorian era as well a story of untold suffering on a human level. For this reason, before I start getting into the mechanics of slavery I want to briefly explain our philosophy behind its representation in Victoria 3.

Slavery is, obviously, a horrific crime against humanity and precisely for this reason, many games that have a slavery-related setting or mechanics will either leave it out of the game or abstract it into something that’s less ‘on the nose’ (for example by simply applying some form of economic bonus at the expense of decreased stability). For Victoria 3, we don’t think these options work for us for two main reasons.

The first reason is that as I mentioned before, it was an important political issue of the day and was a major catalyst for several significant conflicts, most notably the American Civil War which would be bizarrely contextless if slavery did not play a significant role in the game. The other, and most important reason, is that through our Pop system we are trying to represent every individual human on the planet from 1836, so what statement would we be making if we simply wrote all enslaved individuals out of history, or reduced them into an abstract set of modifiers?

Instead, our aim is to try and represent the institution, systems and causes of slavery, as well as the people who lived under and fought against it, as close to history as we can get it. We simply believe this to be the most respectful way for us to handle this topic, as well as the way that’s most true to the game Victoria 3 aspires to be. With that said, let’s get into the actual mechanics of how slavery and slave pops function in Victoria 3.

As was mentioned in the Employment and Qualifications dev diary, slaves are what Victoria 2 would have called a ‘Pop Type‘ and Victoria 3 calls a ‘Profession‘, but function in a significantly different way from other Pops. For one, slaves do not get hired with the enticement of a wage and do not have the freedom to choose the place they work. Slaves also aren’t just able to stop being slaves by switching their Profession to one that does offer a wage and freedom of movement.

These Slaves are given the bare minimum of goods not to starve, resulting in a very slight population increase over time but a generally miserable existence for the people that make up the Pop
View attachment 756677

Buildings that ‘employ’ slaves also do so in a way that differs from the way they employ other Professions. The gist of how this works is that in a state that has slaves, certain buildings (for example plantations) that employ laborers or peasants can fill each available position for those Professions with either a laborer/peasant or a slave. As an example, a Cotton Plantation in a slave state that has the capacity to employ 4000 laborers could fill that capacity with 2240 slaves and 1760 laborers, 4000 laborers and 0 slaves, or any other combination of the two less or equal to 4000. Generally buildings will prefer acquiring slaves over hiring free laborers whenever possible for the economic benefits it brings.

So what are those economic benefits? Well, first, it should be understood that said economic benefits are mostly for the owners of the building, meaning a bunch of wealthy aristocrats in the case of Cotton Plantations. Instead of paying wages, each building decides a standard of living based on factors such as laws and profitability and purchases the ‘necessary’ goods for that target standard of living. This target SoL may not always be at the level of outright starvation but is never going to be anything but a very basic existence.

The cost to purchase said goods is simply added as a building expense and is virtually always going to be cheaper than employing paid labor, which translates into lower costs, higher profits and increased dividends for the building owners. Slaves also do not pay taxes in any form, so if the government wants to convert those profits into revenue, they have to do so through the various forms of wealth-based taxes that are always going to be deeply unpopular with the powerful elite.

These Tobacco plantations on Cuba have fully replaced the usual Laborer workforce with Slaves instead, leading to greater wealth for the Aristocrats
View attachment 756678

However, there is one economic advantage to slavery that goes a little beyond just enriching aristocrats: Slave pops have a higher ratio of workforce to dependents than other pops, meaning that a population of 100k slaves can supply the labor needs of a greater number of buildings than a population of 100k laborers. The key thing here is of course that not all buildings can utilize slaves, so this isn’t going to be doing any good for an industrialized manufacturing economy, but a country that aims to keep its economy agriculture/plantation-focused and suffers from a labor shortage may find the brutal economics of slavery to work in its favor, if they’re willing to stomach the human cost and stamp down on any resistance.

So what of that resistance? Well, given that slavery is founded entirely on human misery, slaves are naturally not going to be content with their lot in life, and will attempt to resist by whatever means are available to them. Mechanically this translates into a steady stream of radicalized slaves and the threat of turmoil and slave uprisings. This threat to a slave society can usually be averted with sufficiently repressive measures, but fear and violence is not a good foundation for a completely stable country.

Of course, resistance to slavery doesn’t just come from the slaves themselves, but also from Abolitionists, both internally in your country (in the form of characters and Interest Groups with the Abolitionist ideology) and externally in the form of Abolitionist-led countries that may hinder or put pressure on slave regimes that aren’t strong enough to resist them. The most notable historical example here being Britain and its naval efforts to stamp out the trans-atlantic slave trade in the 19th century.

With the explanation out of the way, let’s talk about slavery laws. These are what govern who (if anyone) is enslaved or emancipated and where (if anywhere) slavery can exist in your country. They are as follows:

Slavery Abolished: The law that most countries with advanced economies start with. Under this law, slavery is completely illegal and on its passage any slave pops in the country are immediately emancipated and converted into laborers. If a country with this law comes into possession of land where slaves are living, said slaves are also immediately emancipated as above.

Debt Slavery: This law is meant to represent traditional systems of generally debt-based slavery, present in a number of economically less advanced and/or decentralized countries. Under Debt Slavery, Pops of low Wealth levels will gradually create a trickle of new slaves (with poorer pops converting into slaves at a higher rate), as individuals sell themselves or others into slavery for economic reasons such as debt repayment. However, under this system, children born to slaves are born free, so slave populations will not grow by themselves.

Slave Trade: This law is meant to represent the kind of widespread chattel slavery practised in places such as Brazil and Cuba. Under Slave Trade, the children of slaves are born as slaves and new slaves can also be imported from abroad. We’ll not go over exactly how slave import works today, but the gist of it is that slaves can be imported from decentralized countries that practice slavery if the importer has an established Interest in the region (more on Interests at a later point).

Legacy Slavery: This law is meant to represent countries that have made slave trade illegal but not abolished it altogether, most notably the United States of America. Under Legacy Slavery, the country is divided into Free States and Slave States. In Free States, slavery is illegal and everything functions exactly as if the country had the Slavery Abolished law, while Slave States function as though they had the Slave Trade law with the notable exception that new slaves cannot be imported from abroad. Under this law, slaves also tend to have a slightly higher standard of living for the simple reason that a starving slave population isn’t demographically sustainable. This law also plays an important role in how the American Civil War functions in the game, but that’s a topic for a later dev diary.

The United States starts the game with the Legacy Slavery law. Surely, nothing will go wrong if they start trying to abolish it right away?
View attachment 756679

Since slavery laws function just like any other laws, it is possible for them to change in different ways: a country with Slave Trade may follow the US example and change to Legacy Slavery as a compromise alternative to abolishing it altogether, and a country that has fully abolished slavery can even try to bring it back. Given that no country in history actually re-legalized chattel slavery after abolishing it, this is very difficult to do (once abolished there will generally be a strong anti-slavery bastion in a country that aren’t going to look kindly on such proposals). Of course, trying to abolish slavery isn’t likely to happen without resistance either - those wealthy aristocrats who benefit from it have a vested interest in defending it, after all.

Lyman Beecher, leader of the Devout Interest Group in the United States, is an ardent opponent of slavery

View attachment 756680
On that note, we’ve reached the end of this dev diary, though we’ll return a bit to this topic in the future when we talk about diplomacy (which isn’t that far away now!). Next week we’re going to go over the system of States and their related mechanics such as State Regions, Split States and Turmoil.
I used to play Vic 2 as the CSA and the first thing I did was abolish slavery lol. I can’t wait to play as the Non-slavery CSA and be epic
 

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I used to play Vic 2 as the CSA and the first thing I did was abolish slavery lol. I can’t wait to play as the Non-slavery CSA and be epic
Hopefully they model slave revolts so the glorious New Afrika will be able to spawn...
 
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lordgreenace

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Is there any law you can add so I could create an African empire and free all my enslaved people in brazil, Caribbean and the US? Then enslaved Brazilians, Spanish and the Americans for extreme Irony points?
 

lordgreenace

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Why should it be exclusive for communists/fascists when Tsarist Russia also sent dissidents to labor camps and into exile?
Send into exile has been a thing since greace with Athens Ostracism. Laws for sending radicals to Siberia or colonies like Australia makes 100% historical sense.

"Tsarist Russia also sent dissidents to labor camps"... yes for like terrorism, murder, high treason and the extreme crimes not met for this forum. This is why their number peaked it seems (don't have my book to quote so hears number from the wiki ) 28,600 in 1916 which a town or a factory or a plantation worth for the entire Russian empire unlike for communists/fascists which is in the millions number which like Belgium or Ireland worth of slave workers...

But a law or law enforcement for suppression which turns people into serf like pops that have the political power and money right taken away to represent prisoners or that running country badly and having lots of radicals results pop in prisons which cost the state money. Labour camps as I understand them had net negative in profits and sending people to Australia even more so. But did any monarchy enslaves their own people in the time period like communists/fascists that weren't debt slaves?
 

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All those talking about slavery under communism need to realize that forced labor in 20th century communist dictatorships was a form of penal labor (justified by criminal law), not chattel slavery under which humans were a form of property. Under penal labor, criminals are not property per se, but stripped of *former* rights due to criminal acts (rightly justified or not). Slavery in Victoria 3, as presented, simulates chattel slavery. A different system (not yet discussed by the devs) would be necessary to simulate gulags or other historical forms of penal labor (important for the British Empire for example).
So basically private prisons
 

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One aspect I found a little odd in Vicky II was that slavery could be abolished with a single click once the criteria were met and it was as if slavery was never a thing, when in reality you would suddenly have a massive segment of the population that is predominately illiterate or under skilled compared to pops in a similar economic situation, and thus vulnerable to very predatory practices from employers. At the same time you have huge swaths of capitalists and aristocrats that suddenly are without free labor. IRL the US ended slavery with essentially the same 'ease,' but only after fighting a massive war that destroyed the economic infrastructure of the formerly slave-holding region, and with 600K men that would have otherwise been laborers in the economy dead, thus there was a demand for the supply of emancipated people, and an opportunity to rebuild the industry on a model that would take advantage of that same demand.

So will Vicky III more accurately reflect these realities?

For example: If you end slavery with a click of a button, your nation will suddenly face a humanitarian and economic crisis as now the nation has to find a way to integrate these people into the normal economic system, and neighboring nations see a massive influx of now freed former slaves in a wave of immigration. Things that would give everyone horrendous negative modifiers for years or even decades, leading to civil unrest for essentially the rest of the game.

Or, will there be an option for "transitionary laws" that will allow a nation to abolish slavery in stages? Things like regulations that affect standards of living for slaves, coercing slave owners to either pay ruinous fines, spend more money to give their slaves better housing, health care, and education, or reduce their numbers of slaves and hire laborers to make up the difference, thus reducing the severity and the duration of the negative modifiers when the player eventually clicks the button to abolish it out right.

Abolitionists will be pissy, but at least it gives the game a viable middle ground route for eventual abolition.
 
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