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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #14 - Political Movements

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It’s Thursday again and that means we’re going to continue talking about politics in games! Specifically, we’ll be talking about Political Movements in Victoria 3. I touched a little bit on this feature back in Dev Diary #6 by saying that there are ways for politically disenfranchised Pops to push for reform, though that isn’t the entirety of the role that Political Movements fill in the game.

What then are Political Movements? Put simply, a Political Movement is a way for your Pops to make a direct demand of the government, either because they desire change or because they don’t desire the change you are currently pushing through. A Political Movement is always aimed at one particular law, and can take three different forms:

Movement to Preserve: This is a political movement that can form when there is sufficient opposition to the passing of a particular law. For example, if Great Britain starts replacing the Monarchy with a Republic, it’s very likely that this will result in a Movement to Preserve the Monarchy.
Movement to Enact: This is a political movement that can form when there is a popular demand for the enactment of a particular law. For example, if you have a politically active and literate but very poor underclass of laborers, these laborers might form a movement to create a minimum wage.
Movement to Restore: This is a political movement that works exactly like a Movement to Enact, but aims specifically to bring back a law that was previously in effect in the country - for example a Movement to restore the Monarchy in a Britain that successfully transitioned into a Republic. The main difference between a Movement to Restore and a Movement to Enact is that the former will tend to get some extra support from being able to harken back to the ‘golden era’ of the past instead of having to champion new ideas.

Political Movements have a singular goal and will exist only so long as this goal remains unfulfilled. Their impact on the country in pushing for said goal is determined by their Support score. A Political Movement can have support from both Interest Groups (which represents a part of the political establishment backing the movement) and individual Pops (which represents individuals championing the movement in the streets).

Political Movements are not always progressive - while the Industrialists and Intelligentsia want to expand the franchise in Prussia, a coalition of more conservative Interest Groups are simultaneously pushing for more censorship
2021_08_19_2.png

Interest Groups will provide Support for the Movement based on their Clout, while Pops provide Support based on raw numbers (compared to population as a whole), meaning that a single discriminated Laborer backing a Movement provides just as much Support as a fully enfranchised Aristocrat when taking action outside their Interest Group.

In other words, while Political Strength still plays an important role in Political Movements (in the form of Interest Groups throwing their Clout behind movements championing laws they like), it is entirely possible for a Political Movement to form with no Interest Group backing at all - even if nobody is willing to champion workers’ rights in the halls of power, enough angry workers in the streets may just be enough to affect change anyway.

Which Interest Groups will or will not back a Political Movement depends on whether they would approve of a change to the new law (in case of Enact/Restore) or disapprove of the current change in progress (in case of Preserve). Interest Groups that have high approval or which are part of the Government will not support Political Movements, though Government IGs may put pressure on you in other ways if they’re not pleased with your actions.

Pops are more complex, as they can back a Political Movement either because it aligns with their political movement (ie their preferred Interest Group is in favor of the movement) or because they have something to gain directly from it (for example a discriminated Pop backing a movement that would give them more rights).

This Political Movement to abolish the regressive Poll Tax is currently only backed by the Trade Unions and Pops sympathetic to them.
2021_08_19_1.png

The Support score of a Political Movement has two direct effects on legislation: Firstly, it affects the chance of successfully passing a law (making it easier to pass the law the movement wants in the case of a Movement to Enact/Restore, and more difficult to replace in the case of a Movement to Preserve). Having a Movement to Enact/Restore also allows a country to attempt to pass the law the movement wants, even if said law has no backing among the Interest Groups in government.

But what then, if you don’t intend to bow to the wishes of a movement in your country? This is where the Radicalism of a Political Movement comes in. Radicalism is based on the number of Radical pops and Clout of Angry Interest Groups supporting the Movement. A movement with low Radicalism is one that is intent on getting its wishes heard through peaceful means, while a movement with high Radicalism is willing to use more extreme methods, up to and including sparking a Revolution (though that particular topic is something we’ll cover in a later dev diary).

Replacing the Monarchy with a Republic is *not* a popular idea in Sweden in 1836 - the opposition is both strong and highly radicalized - a civil war is all but guaranteed unless the government reverses course.
2021_08_19_5.png

It is by no means a sure thing that every peaceful movement will become radical, and movements may very well fizzle out without accomplishing their goal, but ignoring the wishes of a significant part of your population and/or political establishment does come with some associated risks.

When talking about Political Movement Radicalism, I mentioned Radical Pops, and since they play an important role in creating and radicalizing Political Movements I thought I’d take a little time to explain how Radical Pops and their Loyalist counterparts function in Victoria 3. The first thing that should be understood about Radicals and Loyalists is that just like with Interest Group membership, Radicals and Loyalists are not whole Pops but rather individuals within Pops.

Starting a game as France by hiking the taxes up as high as possible and slashing government/military salaries is a sure-fire way to watch the number of Radicals quickly climb
2021_08_19_3.png

Radicals are individuals who have become disillusioned with the government and political apparatus of the country and want to seek change through any means necessary, while Loyalists are ‘patriots’ who are generally willing to put their political views and goals aside for the sake of the nation. There is a large variety of ways that Pops can become Radicals or Loyalists, here’s a few of the more common reasons listed below:
  • Pops that experience an increase in material living standards will become more loyal
  • Pops that experience a decrease in material living standards will become more radical
  • Pops whose Standard of Living is below the minimum they expect to have will radicalize over time, particularly if it’s so low that they’re actually starving
  • Pops that are literate but discriminated against tend to radicalize over time
  • Pops from Political Movements whose demands are ignored may radicalize over time
  • Pops from Political Movements that have their demands fulfilled become more loyal
Radicals and Loyalists generally function in directly opposite ways. For example, Radicals are more likely to create and join Political Movements (as well as contributing to radicalizing said movements) while Loyalists will never join Political Movements. Loyalists make the Interest Groups they are part of happier, while Radicals make them less happy and so on. This means that one way to prevent political activism and curtail movements that oppose your agenda is to increase the Standard of Living of your Pops. Just because you at some point during the game created prosperity (and as a result a bunch of Loyalists) doesn’t mean everyone will just be onboard with your programme forever, though.

Pops will remain Radical or Loyalist until they either die or have a status change as a result of becoming more radical/loyal (for example, a Loyalist Pop might stop being Loyalist if their material standard of living suddenly takes a nosedive), but they do, in fact, die. As generations die off and are replaced by new ones, less and less people will remember all the great things you did for the country 30 years ago and will start wondering instead what you’ve done for them lately.

With that said, that’s a wrap for this dev diary. Next week we’ll continue talking about Politics on a topic that very much relates to Political Movements by being one of the most monumental political questions of the 19th century: Slavery.
 
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I'm trying to figure out what are the number just above the graphic. So we have the £ symbol, obviously for the treasury. The book and the percentage, probably the literacy level of the whole country pop ? Or research speed ? The bread and water bucket, I assume at first that it was the %tage of people starving but there's no % symbol. Just after we have two people, I assume this is the country population. Then a red fist and a green heart, probably the number of radicals and loyalists.
Any idea ?
I'm pretty sure the £ with the gear around it is your GDP rather than your treasury. The gold meter near the top is the treasury, iirc from the finances dev diary.
 
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2021_08_19_3.png


I'm trying to figure out what are the number just above the graphic. So we have the £ symbol, obviously for the treasury. The book and the percentage, probably the literacy level of the whole country pop ? Or research speed ? The bread and water bucket, I assume at first that it was the %tage of people starving but there's no % symbol. Just after we have two people, I assume this is the country population. Then a red fist and a green heart, probably the number of radicals and loyalists.
Any idea ?
Left to right: GDP, Literacy, Average Standard of Living, (Working) Population, Radicals, Loyalists
 
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Looks promising, as always. I am not envious about how finicky it will be to put in all the links between movements and pop preferences.

One suggestion: think about renaming the "Radical" label. As described, the Radical-Loyalist mechanic makes sense. However, because the term "Radical" was used historically by many liberal-ish political parties, it may lead to confusion about what the label is meant to indicate. Maybe "Politically Activated" or "Dissatisfied" would be a less historically loaded -- and therefore clearer -- label.
This occurred to me as well. Radical and reactionary factions tend to be constituted differently, operate differently, and their attitudes toward cooperation with the current order tend to differ as well. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to distinguish between them, or even make it a three-piece system: Reactionaries, generally conservative factions who oppose reform and may want to return to a previous form of government, Loyalists, who wish to maintain the status quo, and Radicals seeking to bring about progressive change in the legal and political system.
 
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The fact that Slavery is its own dev diary means it has its own fleshed out mechanics.

Mechanics that are not in the "Everything We Know So Far" thread, unlike two of the topics you mentioned.

I think they'd have to be, right? At least in the context of the United States the Union loyalists were the one's advocating for changes to the law and the pro-slavery leave-the-Union radicals were the one's that wanted the status quo to remain.
 
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Left to right: GDP, Literacy, Average Standard of Living, (Working) Population, Radicals, Loyalists

Ah yes, make sense ! Except the working population : if you look at the graphics, it says that there is 1.67M radicals into a workforce of 10.15M people. And IIRC the population of France in this time was around 33-34M peoples.
 
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Could confuse the player because not all Political Movements are 'popular'.

(I know that by 'popular' you're intending 'carried out by the people' rather than 'has broad support' but a lot of people with varying English skills play the game so it's a good idea to try and be as intuitive as possible imo)

Yeah, I guess you're right.
 

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Could confuse the player because not all Political Movements are 'popular'.

(I know that by 'popular' you're intending 'carried out by the people' rather than 'has broad support' but a lot of people with varying English skills play the game so it's a good idea to try and be as intuitive as possible imo)
I think you should give language learners some more credit. Even if they're not aware of the multiple definitions of popular, running Qing and seeing a 4k political movement being called a "Popular Movement" should probably ring enough of a contextual bell in their heads for them to understand that Popular is being used in a different way here. Speaking as someone for whom English is their second language as well, video games are a great way to put language to use in real contexts, which is the best way to learn a language, so you're not doing them any favours by being overly cautious with vocabulary.
 
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Another very promising system!

1. Will there be Political Movements oriented towards country-specific goals or issues - for example the Papacy issue for a (newly) unified Italy? Or Australian debates on where and how to build a capital?

2. You have mentioned that there will be "decrees" - policy decisions at levels below laws. Will Political Movements demand / protest those?

3. Will there be regional Political Movements - for example a colony demanding incorporation as a State? BTW generally the topic of Regions/regionalism has been overlooked so far AFAIK. There are tons of potential questions on it - starting with whether there will be some regional governments / devolution / centralization issues and whether there can be regional adjustments for taxes (can I stimulated industrial growth in Milan by lowering profit taxes there? or if I am Denmark and expect to lose Holstein soon - can I bleed it dry and invest money into Copenhagen)?

4. Will there be any way to reward loyal pops that will include a meaningful feedback (i.e. POPs understanding that loyalty is rewarded and thus changing their ways)? For example making higher education / promotion available only to those who demonstrate loyalty to the regime?
 
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This looks very nice! You mention the possibility of movements fizzling out over time, instead of becoming more and more radical. Could you tell us a bit more about how that happens?
If a Movement's demands have gone unfulfilled for a long time, without becoming Radical enough to be able to start a Revolution, it will eventually gain a chance to dissolve randomly. So as long as you can keep radicalism down you can wait out the clock until the population's grown tired of asking.
 
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crowdemon

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Interesting diary.
 
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Qwerlancer

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Beside rebellion, are protest, strikes, and civil disobedience included in political movement? If 200k Chicago workers is on strike for demanding 8 hours work, would 200k workers in local factories stop working, railroad stop functioning until the movement resolved? If I send in an army to suppress them would more Pop in US turn into socialist/communist?
 
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Radical Pops are a source of Turmoil, which has a number of negative effects on your states. Various Policing Laws provide the Law Enforcement Institution with methods for dealing with the effects of that Turmoil. Some Laws also provide access to Decrees that can have a more direct impact on radical elements of your population. But in both these cases you're dealing with the people who support them, not the Political Movement as an entity. You can't kill an idea.
You can kill all the people who support an idea...
 
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Sounds like you need to deradicalise your wife.
Appeasing her desire for ever more advanced or exotic goods and related expensive SoL would put a strain on state budged :cool:.
 
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I don't know if this has been answered befoee, but is it possible for a country to impose a change of government, say a monarchy, on another through war?

Could, for example, Britain force the United Stated to become a monarchy after defeating them in a war? Perhaps there is a new Casus Belli just for that?
 

Duarte

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I don't know if this has been answered befoee, but is it possible for a country to impose a change of government, say a monarchy, on another through war?

Could, for example, Britain force the United Stated to become a monarchy after defeating them in a war? Perhaps there is a new Casus Belli just for that?
in Vicky 2 yuo had a similar cb from both fascists and comunists, and i think an "disestablish" one for democracies, if a "impose Ideology" cb is to be added, it will most likely be a late game one unlucked by tech, I much like yuo would also like it to be available to all combination of laws (so that I can with russia turn the USA in a feudal monarchy)
 
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mikhail321

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I think they'd have to be, right? At least in the context of the United States the Union loyalists were the one's advocating for changes to the law and the pro-slavery leave-the-Union radicals were the one's that wanted the status quo to remain.
It clearly indicates that the abolition was initiated by the spirit of the nation
 
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KaiserJohan

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How can we see a breakdown of what interest groups (and pops) are supporting a given Political Movement?
IG breakdown is shown by hovering the underlined percentage.
Pop breakdown isn't added yet as polish pass isn't done :)
 
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