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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #14 - Political Movements

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It’s Thursday again and that means we’re going to continue talking about politics in games! Specifically, we’ll be talking about Political Movements in Victoria 3. I touched a little bit on this feature back in Dev Diary #6 by saying that there are ways for politically disenfranchised Pops to push for reform, though that isn’t the entirety of the role that Political Movements fill in the game.

What then are Political Movements? Put simply, a Political Movement is a way for your Pops to make a direct demand of the government, either because they desire change or because they don’t desire the change you are currently pushing through. A Political Movement is always aimed at one particular law, and can take three different forms:

Movement to Preserve: This is a political movement that can form when there is sufficient opposition to the passing of a particular law. For example, if Great Britain starts replacing the Monarchy with a Republic, it’s very likely that this will result in a Movement to Preserve the Monarchy.
Movement to Enact: This is a political movement that can form when there is a popular demand for the enactment of a particular law. For example, if you have a politically active and literate but very poor underclass of laborers, these laborers might form a movement to create a minimum wage.
Movement to Restore: This is a political movement that works exactly like a Movement to Enact, but aims specifically to bring back a law that was previously in effect in the country - for example a Movement to restore the Monarchy in a Britain that successfully transitioned into a Republic. The main difference between a Movement to Restore and a Movement to Enact is that the former will tend to get some extra support from being able to harken back to the ‘golden era’ of the past instead of having to champion new ideas.

Political Movements have a singular goal and will exist only so long as this goal remains unfulfilled. Their impact on the country in pushing for said goal is determined by their Support score. A Political Movement can have support from both Interest Groups (which represents a part of the political establishment backing the movement) and individual Pops (which represents individuals championing the movement in the streets).

Political Movements are not always progressive - while the Industrialists and Intelligentsia want to expand the franchise in Prussia, a coalition of more conservative Interest Groups are simultaneously pushing for more censorship
2021_08_19_2.png

Interest Groups will provide Support for the Movement based on their Clout, while Pops provide Support based on raw numbers (compared to population as a whole), meaning that a single discriminated Laborer backing a Movement provides just as much Support as a fully enfranchised Aristocrat when taking action outside their Interest Group.

In other words, while Political Strength still plays an important role in Political Movements (in the form of Interest Groups throwing their Clout behind movements championing laws they like), it is entirely possible for a Political Movement to form with no Interest Group backing at all - even if nobody is willing to champion workers’ rights in the halls of power, enough angry workers in the streets may just be enough to affect change anyway.

Which Interest Groups will or will not back a Political Movement depends on whether they would approve of a change to the new law (in case of Enact/Restore) or disapprove of the current change in progress (in case of Preserve). Interest Groups that have high approval or which are part of the Government will not support Political Movements, though Government IGs may put pressure on you in other ways if they’re not pleased with your actions.

Pops are more complex, as they can back a Political Movement either because it aligns with their political movement (ie their preferred Interest Group is in favor of the movement) or because they have something to gain directly from it (for example a discriminated Pop backing a movement that would give them more rights).

This Political Movement to abolish the regressive Poll Tax is currently only backed by the Trade Unions and Pops sympathetic to them.
2021_08_19_1.png

The Support score of a Political Movement has two direct effects on legislation: Firstly, it affects the chance of successfully passing a law (making it easier to pass the law the movement wants in the case of a Movement to Enact/Restore, and more difficult to replace in the case of a Movement to Preserve). Having a Movement to Enact/Restore also allows a country to attempt to pass the law the movement wants, even if said law has no backing among the Interest Groups in government.

But what then, if you don’t intend to bow to the wishes of a movement in your country? This is where the Radicalism of a Political Movement comes in. Radicalism is based on the number of Radical pops and Clout of Angry Interest Groups supporting the Movement. A movement with low Radicalism is one that is intent on getting its wishes heard through peaceful means, while a movement with high Radicalism is willing to use more extreme methods, up to and including sparking a Revolution (though that particular topic is something we’ll cover in a later dev diary).

Replacing the Monarchy with a Republic is *not* a popular idea in Sweden in 1836 - the opposition is both strong and highly radicalized - a civil war is all but guaranteed unless the government reverses course.
2021_08_19_5.png

It is by no means a sure thing that every peaceful movement will become radical, and movements may very well fizzle out without accomplishing their goal, but ignoring the wishes of a significant part of your population and/or political establishment does come with some associated risks.

When talking about Political Movement Radicalism, I mentioned Radical Pops, and since they play an important role in creating and radicalizing Political Movements I thought I’d take a little time to explain how Radical Pops and their Loyalist counterparts function in Victoria 3. The first thing that should be understood about Radicals and Loyalists is that just like with Interest Group membership, Radicals and Loyalists are not whole Pops but rather individuals within Pops.

Starting a game as France by hiking the taxes up as high as possible and slashing government/military salaries is a sure-fire way to watch the number of Radicals quickly climb
2021_08_19_3.png

Radicals are individuals who have become disillusioned with the government and political apparatus of the country and want to seek change through any means necessary, while Loyalists are ‘patriots’ who are generally willing to put their political views and goals aside for the sake of the nation. There is a large variety of ways that Pops can become Radicals or Loyalists, here’s a few of the more common reasons listed below:
  • Pops that experience an increase in material living standards will become more loyal
  • Pops that experience a decrease in material living standards will become more radical
  • Pops whose Standard of Living is below the minimum they expect to have will radicalize over time, particularly if it’s so low that they’re actually starving
  • Pops that are literate but discriminated against tend to radicalize over time
  • Pops from Political Movements whose demands are ignored may radicalize over time
  • Pops from Political Movements that have their demands fulfilled become more loyal
Radicals and Loyalists generally function in directly opposite ways. For example, Radicals are more likely to create and join Political Movements (as well as contributing to radicalizing said movements) while Loyalists will never join Political Movements. Loyalists make the Interest Groups they are part of happier, while Radicals make them less happy and so on. This means that one way to prevent political activism and curtail movements that oppose your agenda is to increase the Standard of Living of your Pops. Just because you at some point during the game created prosperity (and as a result a bunch of Loyalists) doesn’t mean everyone will just be onboard with your programme forever, though.

Pops will remain Radical or Loyalist until they either die or have a status change as a result of becoming more radical/loyal (for example, a Loyalist Pop might stop being Loyalist if their material standard of living suddenly takes a nosedive), but they do, in fact, die. As generations die off and are replaced by new ones, less and less people will remember all the great things you did for the country 30 years ago and will start wondering instead what you’ve done for them lately.

With that said, that’s a wrap for this dev diary. Next week we’ll continue talking about Politics on a topic that very much relates to Political Movements by being one of the most monumental political questions of the 19th century: Slavery.
 
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Cheers for the DD Wizzington and all the extra info Iacheck - I'm quite confident it will create more loyalists than radicals amongst the fanbase :) The mechanics all sound very interesting and a good Vicky "complex system" that leads to interesting and immersive gameplay.

A couple of quick questions (no pressure to answer, only if interest/easy):
  • Will there be movements for more military spending (ie, "We want eight and we won't wait")?
  • How moddable is it? Ie, what kind of things could modders potentially expand to be the goals of political movements?
For a naval-themed pic, here are some naval radicals - the Kiel mutiny was an important factor in the fall of the German Government just before the end of WW1 - here are sailors demonstrating in Wilhelmshavn in 1918 :)


1631232740616.png


Edit: The forum maintenance or some other malarkey seems to have taken away my ability to 'watch' this thread. Not sure what's going on there. I'm also not a huge fan of the big, unquotable DD that appears over everything, but it's workable-enough, just a bit more painful to scroll through once it's been read the first time.
 
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RELee

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I tol' y'all this was gonna be fluffy.
clint-nodding.gif
 
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Jamaican Castle

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1)Do the level of loyalist and radicals have no relation to goverment changes?

If a new goverment of unions and intellectualls replaces the previous goverment of aristocrats and industrialist, will the *same* people remain loyal and populist? If there's a military coup, or a revolution, while the same people remain loyalist/radical?
It sounds like radicalization is tied to things like quality of life changes and changes in political power or repression.

If the workers and the academics sweep into power and enact reforms that bring wealth to the masses and give them democracy and egality, loyalties will presumably shift. If they throw out the old fat cats and take away their money and power, that will probably also have an impact.

If the intellectuals come into power and it's "meet the new boss, same as the old boss", and no one gains wealth or status, they will probably not be inclined to treat the new state any differently than the old.

2) I'm not sure if is clear here, it would be good if the "promote" means that, promoting, by propaganda and agitation campaigns.
If you want to promote a political movement, and it has support from at least one interest group, promote that group. We know interest groups can benefit from the government or be hindered by it, and that's a much more meaningful change. Political movements are ephemeral; as soon as they get what they want, they go their separate ways again. So supporting, say, a minimum wage political movement would cease to have an impact once you passed the minimum wage. Instead you have to support, say, the Trade Unions or Rural Folk - and when the minimum wage is passed, they may push for other reforms that you aren't so thrilled about.
 
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Timewalker102

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Thinking about this it makes sense and sounds fun, but would they be more understandable if they were called Popular Movements ?
Could confuse the player because not all Political Movements are 'popular'.

(I know that by 'popular' you're intending 'carried out by the people' rather than 'has broad support' but a lot of people with varying English skills play the game so it's a good idea to try and be as intuitive as possible imo)
 

Uncle_sia

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Wait so the only way for pops to be loyal is to provide them material comfort? Shouldn't the more militarist and conservative or religious pops be loyalists to the state(ofc if the state upholds their values) regardless of their material welfare and based more on their values and principles?
 
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Wait so the only way for pops to be loyal is to provide them material comfort? Shouldn't the more militarist and conservative or religious pops be loyalists to the state(ofc if the state upholds their values) regardless of their material welfare and based more on their values and principles?
From the diary:

  • Pops from Political Movements that have their demands fulfilled become more loyal
So that is one way for a pop to become loyalist regardless of their own material situation. It is not mentioned in the diary but I wonder if members of happy IG also tend to become loyalist over time, maybe not to avoid a positive loop? (pop become loyalist because of happy IG, IG becomes happier becomes members are loyalist) Either way, if you have a conservative country the conservative interest groups will be happy with you, which mean you will have the support of these pops, even if they technically aren't 'loyalists'.
 
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"Loyalists make the Interest Groups they are part of happier, while Radicals make them less happy and so on. This means that one way to prevent political activism and curtail movements that oppose your agenda is to increase the Standard of Living of your Pops"

but in the clergy country like Papa state and Iran (nowadays), and some of the muslim country which control by clergy, the devote people will be very loyal to their gorvement, their loyalty will less been influence by their standard of living.
 
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armour_crafter

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I think the best way to make a lot of loyalists is to draft them into your army, pay them a lot, and find them glory in battle.

We will pay them by enslaving the citizens of other nations. Throw them into the wheat fields!
Like Romans, you will run out of things to conquer which give a return

Then those ballooning armies will be used for Civil wars, like Romans
 
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Do ideas proliferate via proximity? If France is passing progressive laws across the board, will the desire to have the same rise up faster in Spain and Belgium than in Sweden or Wallachia?
 
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next topic is Slavery? well, honestly i think player will more interest to diplomat, military and technology topic....this three topic more important

I imagine the order is more thematic than "importance" (noting that for something with as many gameplay options as Vicky, assessing that'd be pretty tricky), and slavery flows on pretty well from laws, standard of living/wealth, and political movements. I could be wrong though - they might have a complex, arcane process that just looks like it's thematic :)
 
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next topic is Slavery? well, honestly i think player will more interest to diplomat, military and technology topic....this three topic more important
The fact that Slavery is its own dev diary means it has its own fleshed out mechanics.

Mechanics that are not in the "Everything We Know So Far" thread, unlike two of the topics you mentioned.
 
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Nelfe

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2021_08_19_3.png


I'm trying to figure out what are the number just above the graphic. So we have the £ symbol, obviously for the treasury. The book and the percentage, probably the literacy level of the whole country pop ? Or research speed ? The bread and water bucket, I assume at first that it was the %tage of people starving but there's no % symbol. Just after we have two people, I assume this is the country population. Then a red fist and a green heart, probably the number of radicals and loyalists.
Any idea ?
 

TemirFe26

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  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
The book and the percentage, probably the literacy level of the whole country pop ? Or research speed ? The bread and water bucket, I assume at first that it was the %tage of people starving but there's no % symbol.

I think the bread & water bucket icon stands for the average standard of living. It makes sense to me that it would be heavily skewed towards lower levels, at least at game start.

I'd say the book icon definitely stands for literacy rate, though I remember France having a higher rate at game start in Vic2. In my opinion, it displays a value more important to the player than research speed, so I think it would be better for literacy to be displayed at the top bar so that the player can check it quicker.
 
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