Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #14 - Political Movements

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It’s Thursday again and that means we’re going to continue talking about politics in games! Specifically, we’ll be talking about Political Movements in Victoria 3. I touched a little bit on this feature back in Dev Diary #6 by saying that there are ways for politically disenfranchised Pops to push for reform, though that isn’t the entirety of the role that Political Movements fill in the game.

What then are Political Movements? Put simply, a Political Movement is a way for your Pops to make a direct demand of the government, either because they desire change or because they don’t desire the change you are currently pushing through. A Political Movement is always aimed at one particular law, and can take three different forms:

Movement to Preserve: This is a political movement that can form when there is sufficient opposition to the passing of a particular law. For example, if Great Britain starts replacing the Monarchy with a Republic, it’s very likely that this will result in a Movement to Preserve the Monarchy.
Movement to Enact: This is a political movement that can form when there is a popular demand for the enactment of a particular law. For example, if you have a politically active and literate but very poor underclass of laborers, these laborers might form a movement to create a minimum wage.
Movement to Restore: This is a political movement that works exactly like a Movement to Enact, but aims specifically to bring back a law that was previously in effect in the country - for example a Movement to restore the Monarchy in a Britain that successfully transitioned into a Republic. The main difference between a Movement to Restore and a Movement to Enact is that the former will tend to get some extra support from being able to harken back to the ‘golden era’ of the past instead of having to champion new ideas.

Political Movements have a singular goal and will exist only so long as this goal remains unfulfilled. Their impact on the country in pushing for said goal is determined by their Support score. A Political Movement can have support from both Interest Groups (which represents a part of the political establishment backing the movement) and individual Pops (which represents individuals championing the movement in the streets).

Political Movements are not always progressive - while the Industrialists and Intelligentsia want to expand the franchise in Prussia, a coalition of more conservative Interest Groups are simultaneously pushing for more censorship
2021_08_19_2.png

Interest Groups will provide Support for the Movement based on their Clout, while Pops provide Support based on raw numbers (compared to population as a whole), meaning that a single discriminated Laborer backing a Movement provides just as much Support as a fully enfranchised Aristocrat when taking action outside their Interest Group.

In other words, while Political Strength still plays an important role in Political Movements (in the form of Interest Groups throwing their Clout behind movements championing laws they like), it is entirely possible for a Political Movement to form with no Interest Group backing at all - even if nobody is willing to champion workers’ rights in the halls of power, enough angry workers in the streets may just be enough to affect change anyway.

Which Interest Groups will or will not back a Political Movement depends on whether they would approve of a change to the new law (in case of Enact/Restore) or disapprove of the current change in progress (in case of Preserve). Interest Groups that have high approval or which are part of the Government will not support Political Movements, though Government IGs may put pressure on you in other ways if they’re not pleased with your actions.

Pops are more complex, as they can back a Political Movement either because it aligns with their political movement (ie their preferred Interest Group is in favor of the movement) or because they have something to gain directly from it (for example a discriminated Pop backing a movement that would give them more rights).

This Political Movement to abolish the regressive Poll Tax is currently only backed by the Trade Unions and Pops sympathetic to them.
2021_08_19_1.png

The Support score of a Political Movement has two direct effects on legislation: Firstly, it affects the chance of successfully passing a law (making it easier to pass the law the movement wants in the case of a Movement to Enact/Restore, and more difficult to replace in the case of a Movement to Preserve). Having a Movement to Enact/Restore also allows a country to attempt to pass the law the movement wants, even if said law has no backing among the Interest Groups in government.

But what then, if you don’t intend to bow to the wishes of a movement in your country? This is where the Radicalism of a Political Movement comes in. Radicalism is based on the number of Radical pops and Clout of Angry Interest Groups supporting the Movement. A movement with low Radicalism is one that is intent on getting its wishes heard through peaceful means, while a movement with high Radicalism is willing to use more extreme methods, up to and including sparking a Revolution (though that particular topic is something we’ll cover in a later dev diary).

Replacing the Monarchy with a Republic is *not* a popular idea in Sweden in 1836 - the opposition is both strong and highly radicalized - a civil war is all but guaranteed unless the government reverses course.
2021_08_19_5.png

It is by no means a sure thing that every peaceful movement will become radical, and movements may very well fizzle out without accomplishing their goal, but ignoring the wishes of a significant part of your population and/or political establishment does come with some associated risks.

When talking about Political Movement Radicalism, I mentioned Radical Pops, and since they play an important role in creating and radicalizing Political Movements I thought I’d take a little time to explain how Radical Pops and their Loyalist counterparts function in Victoria 3. The first thing that should be understood about Radicals and Loyalists is that just like with Interest Group membership, Radicals and Loyalists are not whole Pops but rather individuals within Pops.

Starting a game as France by hiking the taxes up as high as possible and slashing government/military salaries is a sure-fire way to watch the number of Radicals quickly climb
2021_08_19_3.png

Radicals are individuals who have become disillusioned with the government and political apparatus of the country and want to seek change through any means necessary, while Loyalists are ‘patriots’ who are generally willing to put their political views and goals aside for the sake of the nation. There is a large variety of ways that Pops can become Radicals or Loyalists, here’s a few of the more common reasons listed below:
  • Pops that experience an increase in material living standards will become more loyal
  • Pops that experience a decrease in material living standards will become more radical
  • Pops whose Standard of Living is below the minimum they expect to have will radicalize over time, particularly if it’s so low that they’re actually starving
  • Pops that are literate but discriminated against tend to radicalize over time
  • Pops from Political Movements whose demands are ignored may radicalize over time
  • Pops from Political Movements that have their demands fulfilled become more loyal
Radicals and Loyalists generally function in directly opposite ways. For example, Radicals are more likely to create and join Political Movements (as well as contributing to radicalizing said movements) while Loyalists will never join Political Movements. Loyalists make the Interest Groups they are part of happier, while Radicals make them less happy and so on. This means that one way to prevent political activism and curtail movements that oppose your agenda is to increase the Standard of Living of your Pops. Just because you at some point during the game created prosperity (and as a result a bunch of Loyalists) doesn’t mean everyone will just be onboard with your programme forever, though.

Pops will remain Radical or Loyalist until they either die or have a status change as a result of becoming more radical/loyal (for example, a Loyalist Pop might stop being Loyalist if their material standard of living suddenly takes a nosedive), but they do, in fact, die. As generations die off and are replaced by new ones, less and less people will remember all the great things you did for the country 30 years ago and will start wondering instead what you’ve done for them lately.

With that said, that’s a wrap for this dev diary. Next week we’ll continue talking about Politics on a topic that very much relates to Political Movements by being one of the most monumental political questions of the 19th century: Slavery.
 
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How are monarchist movements with various pretenders handled? For example, the Orleanists vs Legitimists vs Bonapartists? Are they associated with certain constitutional laws or do they use a separate mechanic?
 
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lachek

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Can all pops get involved in political movements, or are some types excluded- ie, slaves, colonized pops, unaccepted cultures?
All of them can get involved on an individual level, but the ones you mention have no or very limited Political Strength and so cannot act through Interest Groups. But one of the primary reasons for this system is to permit an alternate avenue for disenfranchised Pops to have a say in the country's politics - especially if things get bad enough for them.
 
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I imagine you can try, but it will be hard if the movement is not big enough. Reminding that changing laws is not instant and there is a whole "EU4-siege-like mechanic" that might stall your law change so much it is virtually impossible.

I hope that sufficiently opposed laws will eventually go down in acrimonious defeat. The linearity of EU's siege mechanic is unrealistical even for that game, and for this it would be a travesty.
 
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Fofotron

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So pops tend to become Radical if their current standard of living decreases.

Theoretically speaking, if I decrease the standard of living and somehow weather the revolts that will come for a long time, could the new generation that is born in these circunstances that doesn't remember the good times, doesn't know that things used to be better, be made Loyal?

What i mean to say is that say if I enected the X Law, and the current pops will become Loyal because thay liked it. I then revoke the X Law, and put down the revolts that will come.
Then, after a generation has passed, I once again enact the X Law.
Will the current pops become Loyal, since I enacted the X Law, just like their parents/grandparents once were Loyal because I had enacted the X Law?
 
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Lorehead

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This looks very nice! You mention the possibility of movements fizzling out over time, instead of becoming more and more radical. Could you tell us a bit more about how that happens?
 
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Ancillary

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while Loyalists will never join Political Movements.​
Not even in support of a law you are attempting to pass? It sounds like getting the laws/reforms you want passed quickly still requires the Vic2 method of intentionally upsetting your population, rather than making them so happy they're willing to go along with whatever you want to do. I guess there's always a tension in determining whether Loyalists are loyal to you, the government, or loyal to the status quo.
 
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mikhail321

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Not even in support of a law you are attempting to pass? It sounds like getting the laws/reforms you want passed quickly still requires the Vic2 method of intentionally upsetting your population, rather than making them so happy they're willing to go along with whatever you want to do. I guess there's always a tension in determining whether Loyalists are loyal to you, the government, or loyal to the status quo.
It makes sense to be the latter. Loyal = happy with the way things are and trusting the political elites. so they wouldn’t support change, but wouldn’t oppose it either. I hope there will be very tangible downsides to intentionally upsetting your population, more so than in Vic2. We already know that low wealth means low population growth, so keeping people poor would mean you have less people later on. I hope turmoil will also be a real thing to consider. Maybe strikes and other events short of revolution will be noticeable. So you would have a choice of bringing about quick change while crippling your country short-term, or more gradual evolution.
 
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It sounds like getting the laws/reforms you want passed quickly still requires the Vic2 method of intentionally upsetting your population, rather than making them so happy they're willing to go along with whatever you want to do.
I was under the impression that (as long as it's something on their agenda) you could use Interest Groups in your government to quickly pass laws. Deliberate unrest would only be needed if you, the player, want a sudden and radical shift (capitalists leading a monarchy -> communist revolution) or to pass a law that your government Interest Groups don't want.
 
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Can the current economic simulation accommodate for the Free Silverite movement? Can Interest Groups blast propaganda to bamboozle Pops into supporting movements detrimental to them? Can there be a situation where you can have two opposing movements (one to preserve, one to change), both radical, in case we want to have a Spanish Civil War ahead of schedule? How many missed meals is society away from chaos?

10adc66cbed3be4c6b3765636d3ff6bb7b3e7f6052ab5989d5dfd6bde68613a8.png
 
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Victor Cortez

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Thinking about this it makes sense and sounds fun, but would they be more understandable if they were called Popular Movements ?
 
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Vohen

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All of them can get involved on an individual level, but the ones you mention have no or very limited Political Strength and so cannot act through Interest Groups. But one of the primary reasons for this system is to permit an alternate avenue for disenfranchised Pops to have a say in the country's politics - especially if things get bad enough for them.
Wait, so even colonized pops can participate on movements?
I was imagining these would be limited to integrated states only, where the institutions enacted by law can actually reach them.
For example, would it make sense for Indians to push for a better healthcare system they don't have any access to?
 
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Wait, so even colonized pops can participate on movements?
I was imagining these would be limited to integrated states only, where the institutions enacted by law can actually reach them.
For example, would it make sense for Indians to push for a better healthcare system they don't have any access to?
Hopefully, this is handled simply by scripting it so that pops don't care about laws that can't possibly affect them.
 
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Caesar15

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In Victoria 2 general militancy made it easier to pass any law (in the reform direction), does turmoil function the same way in Victoria 3, or are laws only easier to pass through specific movement support/radicalism?
 

TIAS-A1927

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A single Pop can only have either Loyalists or Radicals. If the Pop has Loyalists, and become more radical, the effect cancels out the Loyalists instead until there are none left, at which point it would start gaining Radicals instead.

Deaths reduce Loyalists/Radicals/Literate/Qualifications etc by roughly proportionate amounts, yes. So over time, Pops will trend towards neutrality, faster the shorter their life expectancy is (i.e. if both death rate and birth rate are high).

1)Do the level of loyalist and radicals have no relation to goverment changes?

If a new goverment of unions and intellectualls replaces the previous goverment of aristocrats and industrialist, will the *same* people remain loyal and populist? If there's a military coup, or a revolution, while the same people remain loyalist/radical?


Promoting the appearance of radical Movements is certainly a thing you can do to effect change to your country rapidly. First off, since radicals are more prone to join Movements, having lots of radicals will make for stronger Movements which let you pass the Laws they want faster and easier. It's also possible to foster a revolution on purpose, though this can be a dangerous gambit and obviously lead to huge loss of life and other devastation to your nation.

You can attempt to change them as often as you like, but each one is a process - potentially a destabilizing one - and you can only enact one Law at a time. So flip-flopping between Laws is a pretty good way of making just about everyone unhappy in the long run.


2) I'm not sure if is clear here, it would be good if the "promote" means that, promoting, by propaganda and agitation campaigns. It is a tradition of paradox games the whole "intentionally make the life of the workers bad so they radicalize and push for social reform" which is really anti-intuitive and inmmersion breaking, not to speakof the actual conecuences of those changes.

That's not how people move politics forward irl, and considering how much of stuff is put on the hands of social groups and pops, I hope that a good way to combine that with giving agency to the player is by the means of tools like, "hold rallys", "organize agitation", "launch press campaings", etc, the kind of things *actual* parties (and goverments) use to put people in favour or against policies
 
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Antarctica7

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Very interesting list of conditions that influence loyalty and radicalism- will the system interact with war at all?

It would seem to make sense that some wars produce a 'rally around the flag' effect increasing loyal Pops, and others that drag on or cause high expenses and casualties cause the number of loyal Pops to fall and radical Pops to increase.
 
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TFR

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Forgive me if this is the wrong time to ask, but are rebels tied into your population? Like, say a million rebels popup does killing them decrease your population, or is it like Vicky 2 that they were in a bubble and killing them didn't decrease?
 
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NapoleonComple

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Rereading a few of the earlier pages, I'm already picturing an idyllic, democratic paradise with worker's rights and free healthcare and education for all... that I achieved by brutally crushing all who opposed the new regime under the heel of my oversized, lavishly funded military and oppressive state apparatus.

ANYONE WHO COMPLAINS ABOUT NOT NOT HAVING RIGHTS WILL BE CRUSHED LIKE THE COCKROACHES THEY ARE!!!
 
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