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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

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Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
dd12_1.png

The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
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So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
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To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
dd12_4.png

Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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I understand that you want to have the player be more hands on, even with laissez faire playstyles, with the industrailization of a country. I understand the rationalization of 'you're playing the spirit of the nation' etc. etc. But when all of your sources of income are taxes, and all but one of your sources of expenses are government expenses, doesn't that pretty much say that you're playing as the government? Which means why is the government always paying for building everything, if you're not playing a state-controlled economy?

I don't think that means the government is building everything. I'm pretty certain the construction costs refers to government buildings rather than every building. You still need to pay to expand Government Administration or build a barracks after all. The Investment Pool likely handles construction costs for production buildings that are privately owned.
 
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Re: not ready to discuss tariffs yet, I assume the plan is to try to make them something other than the free money button that they were in vicky 2? While irl they are a important income source for developing countries I always found it unrealistic how in vicky 2 even developed nations were usually better off with increased tariffs as opposed to increased taxes, just in terms of like, pops getting their needs and so on.
 
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Land taxes only collected from peasants? What about the large landowners?

The menu for taxes seems that is open for any type of government, political party or culture. Are there no inventions/technologies/discoveries required to unlock different types of taxes?

Everyone can use everything from the start?
Land taxes will be collected from Peasants, Farmers and Aristocrats
 
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And real world economies did not use tax rates that are "too exact"? That's the whole point of simulation. If I want to change my tax rate from 20% to 18%, I should be able to. Options should not be 5-10% apart.
There's a few reasons:
* Discrete options are clearer than sliders in what exactly you get for selecting each level
* We don't want players to be babysitting and tweaking their sliders every single week to get the perfect level of taxation/spending because we don't think it's a good gameplay flow
* The idea that a government would be making weekly adjustments to the tax rate without incensing the population is extremely unrealistic and discrete levels allows us to make it so changing the tax level is something that you can't be doing all the time and that changes can have political consequences
 

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There's a few reasons:
* Discrete options are clearer than sliders in what exactly you get for selecting each level
* We don't want players to be babysitting and tweaking their sliders every single week to get the perfect level of taxation/spending because we don't think it's a good gameplay flow
* The idea that a government would be making weekly adjustments to the tax rate without incensing the population is extremely unrealistic and discrete levels allows us to make it so changing the tax level is something that you can't be doing all the time and that changes can have political consequences
I think a move away from sliders is a good one but perhaps is compromise is to have more options for the tax rate so we can have more control over it? So say instead of 5 button massive rising/decreasing the tax rate by 20%, have 10 buttons but they are only increase/decrease taxes by 10%, and spreading the effects out. That way i can’t finely tune it but I will have more control over the tax rate.
 
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How does having buttons instead of sliders prevent immediate changes in the tax rate?

I assume by making it so you can't click any more buttons for a period of time.
 
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Diplomatic Pacts is another form of revenue that was shown in the screenshots, but not discussed in the post. Anything you could tell us about those (as a form of revenue source)?

Also, would the divident taxes lower the investment pool contribution directly/indirectly?
There's a few different forms of diplomatic pacts that can generate money such as subject relationships, but we'll get more into that in a later dev diary.
 
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I'm very curious what "Money from the Investment Fund" refers to as a revenue source. Can governments actually siphon off some money from the Investment Pool depending on the economic system in place?
 
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How is inflation or deflation handled? If alot of countries are poring money into the void of their gold reserves at diminishing returns would this actually effect the game's economy or would it be handled by the in game systems.
Right now we don't have inflation mechanics, it's something we think we'll want in the game sooner or later but likely not for release.
 
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I understand that you want to have the player be more hands on, even with laissez faire playstyles, with the industrailization of a country. I understand the rationalization of 'you're playing the spirit of the nation' etc. etc. But when all of your sources of income are taxes, and all but one of your sources of expenses are government expenses, doesn't that pretty much say that you're playing as the government? Which means why is the government always paying for building everything, if you're not playing a state-controlled economy?

The whole "Spirit of the Nation" is there only to justify you continuing to play the game after the Revolution topples your government.
Outside revolutions, you are always assumed to be playing the government in PDS games so the whole "Spirit of the Nation" is, for worse or better, isn't actually correct.
 
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I'm very curious what "Money from the Investment Fund" refers to as a revenue source. Can governments actually siphon off some money from the Investment Pool depending on the economic system in place?
No, you receive money from it only to cover expenses for the type of constructions it may be used for.
 
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From what I’m seeing, it looks like you can place a consumption tax to decrease demand and thus price of a good as a form of economic warfare against a rival who heavily produces that good if it can be easily substituted… Love it!
 
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Wizzington

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When it comes to debt that the government needs to pay off, will historical debt from the Napoleonic wars and prior still be something that countries have to pay off. Ie do the British still have the debt that they have to pay off from the South Sea Bubble fiasco.
At the moment we don't have this for most countries, I'm split on the idea in that it would be a nice historical detail but at the same time having countries start the game in a dire financial state may not feel good gameplay wise.
 
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InvisibleBison

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* We don't want players to be babysitting and tweaking their sliders every single week to get the perfect level of taxation/spending because we don't think it's a good gameplay flow
While I agree that micromanaging tax rates isn't fun, I'm concerned that you've gone too far in the opposite direction. It seems likely to me that the current implementation of tax rates will result in a situation where you have to choose between taxing at a rate that is insufficient to meet your expenses or taxing at a rate that gives more money than you need and which angers your population. And the fact that tax rates for different strata are tied together seems like a particularly unnecessary oversimplification.
 
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Wizzington

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I am mostly concerned by your mention of tariffs. Tariffs were an extremely huge part of the United States's economic strategy at this time, and a key point of contention between the industrialist north (who wanted high tariffs), and the south (low tariffs).
So the question is: can tariffs be used to protect local industries in vic3 (and not just a way to earn money from exports)?
Yes, the idea with tariffs is that they should both be a way to earn money and protect domestic industries, but we haven't actually finalized and implemented them yet which is why I can't tell you all about how they work.
 
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Nicolas-

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There's a few reasons:
* Discrete options are clearer than sliders in what exactly you get for selecting each level
* We don't want players to be babysitting and tweaking their sliders every single week to get the perfect level of taxation/spending because we don't think it's a good gameplay flow
* The idea that a government would be making weekly adjustments to the tax rate without incensing the population is extremely unrealistic and discrete levels allows us to make it so changing the tax level is something that you can't be doing all the time and that changes can have political consequences
Thank you for the clarification. I will reserve judgement until I actually play the game. But I'm just concerned that we may be in a situation where we choose a tax rate which is higher than the optimal one, costing us legitimacy and unrest, only because we didn't have the option to select a rate closer to the optimal one, especially if options are 5-10% apart. But anyway, we'll be able to tell whether that's true when we play the game.
 
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