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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

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Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
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The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
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So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
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To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
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Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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Bergest

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Military Goods, including small arms are listed as one of the main expenses. Do we know whether Pops will be able to purchase some military goods, like small arms, making them a potential factor for the domestic market, instead of just being an expense or international trade good?

Could be pretty cool, especially if tied to some sort of gun ownership law which could have follow up consequences for example for revolutions, where pops who are either part of the military or had previously purchased a gun could be more effective in combat or something like that.
 
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Praetorian44

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Not to get Nixonian, I don’t think you’re actually in the minority. People who like sliders are just very vocal.
Sure, my comment was just based off the replies in this thread, hence the use of the words "looks like" :)
 
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Arizal

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Not to get Nixonian, I don’t think you’re actually in the minority. People who like sliders are just very vocal.
I think you are right, but I can't understand why.
 
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So the gold limit is national and justified by increased gold prices?

To be realistic, it should be a worlwide-price, I mean why would the gold price care for the Spanish limit when the UK or the US have a multiple of their amount ? But I guess this is an intended eh... let's agree on "modification" for gameplay reasons? Oh and 10% interest rate DOES seem high...? Can I really make much better revenue with my investments? Seems a lot.

And did I hear about something like a gold standard being in trouble at some point? Anything imlemented in this regard, e.g. with a minting slider that - if pushed too high by too many countries - goes boom?

Can I melt the gold reserves with a giant "death ray". Or expose them to ionizing radiation? ... Oh the possibilities!
 
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I would think it's unrealistic. A Nation doesn't marginally change its taxes based on the effects of day-to-day life. They don't go from a 12% tax to a 12.3% in order to balance the budget. Along with the fact that a slider is too immediate, and governments rarely ever work that quickly in reaction to an economic incident
The frequency of changes is unrelated to the presentation as discrete or continuous option. And surely one doesn't need decimals but there is quite some open field between this and 4 or 5 settings.
 
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I think you are right, but I can't understand why.
Most people are ambivalent on the matter I would guess. As long as it works fine why care whether there are buttons or sliders? There are bigger things to be concerned about than how tax rates are selected.
 
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A cap on gold reserves would make money disappear from the world. Given the large numbers allowed now datawise, there shouldnt be integer overflow problems. But having massive amounts of gold locked up in government offices should cause currency shortages in the population, leading to problems with them being able to accumulate wealth, or even buy food and other goods, if they arent getting money in some other way.
This already happens in VIC3 at multiple points. One more isn't going to hurt. The rest of it just isn't fun for gameplay
 
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Most people are ambivalent on the matter I would guess. As long as it works fine why care whether there are buttons or sliders? There are bigger things to be concerned about than how tax rates are selected.
I would lie if I told that I didn't like them aesthetically, but functionnally they allow to convex more information in a less confusing manner and perhaps in less space.
 
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alexti

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It does both. The tooltip in the Dev Diary says “+50% Radicalism from Standard of Living decreases.” Your POPs get angrier about losing standard of living because they blame taxes and not something as broad as “the economy.”
That's what I interpret as the game showing effects of taking more money away from PoPs. So it's the effect of the taxation level, not of the change in taxation level.

What does 14% mean though if it’s something like a poll tax? Versus if it’s a progressive income tax? It’s complicated, even more complicated than Vicky 2’s system of effective tax rates which already made that system highly illegible to players.
I would expect that poll tax would not be a percentage. So far it looked like income tax only has a flat rate, so a single percentage would be clear, but if there are more complex taxation systems then more complex presentation would be required.

Personally, I don't like when the game hides such information and makes player go and dig through the save files to find it. I know, there are arguments for hiding information from the player (and that can be valid for some types of information, like data about other nations for example), but the taxation shouldn't be one of them.
 
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I really like this system, even if it seems a bit counterintuitive. You hear a lot of grumbling about the national debt from the moneyed classes but they would be the first to freak out if the US actually tried to pay off its debt (and thus stopped selling them Treasury bonds).

It also captures Hamilton’s Financial plan, like I laid out earlier in the thread.
Countries that run a budget surplus, such as Singapore, still issue some treasury bonds for this reason.
 
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BrotherJonathan

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I am also glad that sliders are gone. In fairness, most of the suggested strategy for taxes/spending/tariffs in previous Vicky Games had things always being set to either 0%, 50%, or 100%, so I don't think we're loosing that much. Also eliminates having to go in and fiddle with the tax sliders every 6 months, which always felt like more of a chore than fun.
 
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alexti

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I am curious why there is a need for a soft cap on gold reserve. Taking money out of economy already seems to be bad on its own, what is the point in penalizing it even further?
 

LiChwing

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Nice DD. I am still curious in which form foreign investment exists in Victoria 3. Can you build something for another country, subsidize building or make a direct investment of money? Or is it limited to just paying off another country's debt?
 
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Wizzington

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A correction on tariffs: It should indeed have said they're a way to make money on goods exported to your market, not from your market.
 
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VineFynn

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Bizarre conceit for the gold reserve limit. You can only buy 20K worth of gold with 30K? In what sense is it 20K worth of gold then?
 
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Jamaican Castle

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So far it looked like income tax only has a flat rate
The tax in the DD was regressive (higher percentages on lower incomes) and it was mentioned there were also flat and progressive options. For two out of those three options, only one pop stratum would actually get taxed the percentage shown on a slider.
 
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Heatth

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Bizarre conceit for the gold reserve limit. You can only buy 20K worth of gold with 30K? In what sense is it 20K worth of gold then?
In the sense that if you try to turn into money again you only get 20K. Also in the sense it is a gameplay mechanic that is there to fulfil a gameplay function, to to be an accurate simulation of reality.
 
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