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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #1 - Pops

Dev Diary 1.png


Hello everyone! I’m Mikael, Victoria 3’s lead game designer - and oh boy does it feel good to finally be able to say that out loud! Today I have the pleasure to reveal some details about that one feature everyone thinks about when they hear “Victoria” - the Pops.

Pops were introduced in the very first Victoria game to represent your country’s population. Pop mechanics have since snuck into other Paradox titles like Stellaris and Imperator. But this in-depth population simulation is what Victoria is about, and we’re going to bring you a system with more depth than ever before!

In Victoria 3, Pops are the country’s engine - they work the industries, they pay the taxes, they operate the government institutions, and they fight the wars. They’re born, they die, they change occupation, they migrate. And they organize, get angry, and start revolutions.

Every Pop is visualized so you can see which demographic sports the best moustache. Note that Pop portraits are very much a work in progress!
ClergyCrop.png


You, the player, might be in charge of the country, but you’re not in charge of the Pops and can’t manipulate them directly. Yet everything you do to the country affects them, and they in turn will react in what they perceive to be their own best interests. A large part of your game will consist of trying to sate your population’s appetites for material goods or political reform. But most actions you will take aren’t to the benefit of every Pop in your nation, and by making life better for one part of the population you may inadvertently upset another demographic.

The most important aspect of Pops are their Professions, which reflects the types of jobs it carries out in the building where they work. A Pop’s profession determines its social class and can affect its wages, political strength, what other professions it might qualify for, and particularly which political Interest Groups it’s prone to supporting (which you will hear lots more about in future Dev Diaries.) Some of the Pop professions you will encounter in Victoria 3 are Aristocrats, Capitalists, Bureaucrats, Officers, Shopkeepers, Machinists, Laborers, and Peasants. Investing in industries that provide job opportunities for the kinds of professions you want to encourage in your country is key to the “society building” gameplay of Victoria 3.

Every variation of Profession, Culture, Religion, and Workplace in the world gets its own unique Pop. At any given time this results in many tens of thousands of Pops in the world working, migrating, procreating, and agitating.
Aristocrats.png


The people that make up a Pop are distinguished into Workforce and Dependents. Members of the Workforce keep the buildings in the game operational and collect a wage from them in return. Those who cannot or aren’t permitted to be officially employed are considered Dependents. They collect only a small income from odd jobs and government programs.

Laws affect who is included in each category. At game start most countries do not accept women working and collecting a wage outside the home but by reforming laws governing the rights of women more Dependent Pops will enter the Workforce over time. By abolishing child labor, the amount of income Dependents bring home will decrease but will make it easier to educate your populace, increasing their overall Literacy. After a bloody war many Dependents of soldiers may be left without sufficient income, and you may decide to institute pensions to help your population recover.

In short: nothing in your country runs without Pops, and everything about your country affects those Pops, who in turn provide new opportunities and challenges during your tumultuous journey through the Victorian era and beyond.

I have oh so much more to say, but that is all for this week! You will hear much more from me in future Dev Diaries. Next week Martin will return to explain something quite central to the game - Capacities!
 
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I'm glad to see the first (actual) DD for VIC3, but I have to admit I was hoping for some juicer information.

If I'm being honest, I'm less interested in the pop mechanics (which I assume will be a general improvement over that of VIC2) than I am in the other mechanics: war, trade, diplomacy, crisis, etc.
 
Yes I understand that the dependents of a certain pop are also part of the pop. Or let's say count toward the overall number of a pop but let me give you an example of what I mean. Let's say you have a country with only adult males allowed to work. Now let's take any pop type. Let's say you have 600k Artisans. Of those are maybe 100k the actual male, adult artisans that do the work and 500k dependents in form of women and children. When you examine this pop and have only one figure to "show" the pop you probably want to see the actual artisan and not his wife or his kid, so why would you be shown a woman? Now if you want to change the way it's portrayed and always have a family or several figures visualizing a pop.. ok, that's a different thing.
I think it would actually make great sense to illustrate pops with multiple people, as it will also make it clear that it is a group, not an individual. And it feels like a great way to make changes to representation, rights etc. more than just a change to a number.
 
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tl;dr: Remember that we represent every individual workplace in each state as well, so we actually have substantially more granularity to Pop "location" than in previous titles.

I don't think they mean "States" as in "US States"; California would likely be broken up into several states, like in EU4.

We do actually! With respect to the USA, each current US state corresponds exactly to one named state region in the game (although in some cases state regions can split into multiple states owned by different countries.) Pops can move freely within workplaces in their state, while they need to undergo migration in order to move between states.

With respect to granularity though, there's really no downside to having Pops be able to move freely within their state rather than having to migrate between a handful of provinces within the same state as in previous titles. We still represent the urban/rural divide by permitting many, many different types of industry in each state, including both manufacturing and resource industries (as opposed to one static "RGO" per province) and service/governmental/infrastructure/military workplaces. These different industries and workplaces are visually grouped on the map such that you can see the urbanization and growth of some parts of your state compared to others.
 
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tl;dr: Remember that we represent every individual workplace in each state as well, so we actually have substantially more granularity to Pop "location" than in previous titles.



We do actually! With respect to the USA, each current US state corresponds exactly to one named state region in the game (although in some cases state regions can split into multiple states owned by different countries.) Pops can move freely within workplaces in their state, while they need to undergo migration in order to move between states.

With respect to granularity though, there's really no downside to having Pops be able to move freely within their state rather than having to migrate between a handful of provinces within the same state as in previous titles. We still represent the urban/rural divide by permitting many, many different types of industry in each state, including both manufacturing and resource industries (as opposed to one static "RGO" per province) and service/governmental/infrastructure/military workplaces. These different industries and workplaces are visually grouped on the map such that you can see the urbanization and growth of some parts of your state compared to others.
This has been one of the biggest concerns for me, is this system able to model things like San Francisco's population getting huge but its surroundings being essentially empty, though? It seems to me like this is incredibly inflexible and will be unable to truly model the rural -> urban migration that happened at the time, while also seeming unlikely to be able to model the opposite if we take our country down that path.

Another very important thing:
The way the equivalent to RGOs appears to work implies we only have one per state though, right? I can't have both coal and iron in one state, for example?
That'd make the statement that we have more and more varied workplaces available still hold true, but it would be a lot less RGO-equivalents across the world than Vicky 2 had. Nearly the same amount of RGO-equivalents as Vicky 2 had states, even. This would greatly limit how interesting the economy aspect can be especially for smaller countries who'd like to focus on resource gathering and exporting.
It would also fail to represent areas that historically had both, rich iron and coal resources or rich farmlands and rich grazing lands and so on.
 
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View attachment 724799

Hello everyone! I’m Mikael, Victoria 3’s lead game designer - and oh boy does it feel good to finally be able to say that out loud! Today I have the pleasure to reveal some details about that one feature everyone thinks about when they hear “Victoria” - the Pops.

Pops were introduced in the very first Victoria game to represent your country’s population. Pop mechanics have since snuck into other Paradox titles like Stellaris and Imperator. But this in-depth population simulation is what Victoria is about, and we’re going to bring you a system with more depth than ever before!

In Victoria 3, Pops are the country’s engine - they work the industries, they pay the taxes, they operate the government institutions, and they fight the wars. They’re born, they die, they change occupation, they migrate. And they organize, get angry, and start revolutions.

Every Pop is visualized so you can see which demographic sports the best moustache. Note that Pop portraits are very much a work in progress!
View attachment 724800


You, the player, might be in charge of the country, but you’re not in charge of the Pops and can’t manipulate them directly. Yet everything you do to the country affects them, and they in turn will react in what they perceive to be their own best interests. A large part of your game will consist of trying to sate your population’s appetites for material goods or political reform. But most actions you will take aren’t to the benefit of every Pop in your nation, and by making life better for one part of the population you may inadvertently upset another demographic.

The most important aspect of Pops are their Professions, which reflects the types of jobs it carries out in the building where they work. A Pop’s profession determines its social class and can affect its wages, political strength, what other professions it might qualify for, and particularly which political Interest Groups it’s prone to supporting (which you will hear lots more about in future Dev Diaries.) Some of the Pop professions you will encounter in Victoria 3 are Aristocrats, Capitalists, Bureaucrats, Officers, Shopkeepers, Machinists, Laborers, and Peasants. Investing in industries that provide job opportunities for the kinds of professions you want to encourage in your country is key to the “society building” gameplay of Victoria 3.

Every variation of Profession, Culture, Religion, and Workplace in the world gets its own unique Pop. At any given time this results in many tens of thousands of Pops in the world working, migrating, procreating, and agitating.
View attachment 724801

The people that make up a Pop are distinguished into Workforce and Dependents. Members of the Workforce keep the buildings in the game operational and collect a wage from them in return. Those who cannot or aren’t permitted to be officially employed are considered Dependents. They collect only a small income from odd jobs and government programs.

Laws affect who is included in each category. At game start most countries do not accept women working and collecting a wage outside the home but by reforming laws governing the rights of women more Dependent Pops will enter the Workforce over time. By abolishing child labor, the amount of income Dependents bring home will decrease but will make it easier to educate your populace, increasing their overall Literacy. After a bloody war many Dependents of soldiers may be left without sufficient income, and you may decide to institute pensions to help your population recover.

In short: nothing in your country runs without Pops, and everything about your country affects those Pops, who in turn provide new opportunities and challenges during your tumultuous journey through the Victorian era and beyond.

I have oh so much more to say, but that is all for this week! You will hear much more from me in future Dev Diaries. Next week Martin will return to explain something quite central to the game - Capacities!
It looks so good oh my god jesus please, YES!
 
The way the equivalent to RGOs appears to work implies we only have one per state though, right? I can't have both coal and iron in one state, for example?
That'd make the statement that we have more and more varied workplaces available still hold true, but it would be a lot less RGO-equivalents across the world than Vicky 2 had. Nearly the same amount of RGO-equivalents as Vicky 2 had states, even. This would greatly limit how interesting the economy aspect can be especially for smaller countries who'd like to focus on resource gathering and exporting.
It would also fail to represent areas that historically had both, rich iron and coal resources or rich farmlands and rich grazing lands and so on.
I read the reply as the opposite - that "permitting many, many different types of industry in each state, including both manufacturing and resource industries" means there will be many different types of resource industries in each state.
 
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This has been one of the biggest concerns for me, is this system able to model things like San Francisco's population getting huge but its surroundings being essentially empty, though? It seems to me like this is incredibly inflexible and will be unable to truly model the rural -> urban migration that happened at the time, while also seeming unlikely to be able to model the opposite if we take our country down that path.

Another very important thing:
The way the equivalent to RGOs appears to work implies we only have one per state though, right? I can't have both coal and iron in one state, for example?
That'd make the statement that we have more and more varied workplaces available still hold true, but it would be a lot less RGO-equivalents across the world than Vicky 2 had. Nearly the same amount of RGO-equivalents as Vicky 2 had states, even. This would greatly limit how interesting the economy aspect can be especially for smaller countries who'd like to focus on resource gathering and exporting.
It would also fail to represent areas that historically had both, rich iron and coal resources or rich farmlands and rich grazing lands and so on.
A single state can support numerous variations of different mines, agriculture, plantations, logging, fishing etc and you can definitely have a state where almost the entire population lives and works in the urban area.
 
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Totally accurate - or, at least, to my knowledge it is accurate for many European cultures, at least for specific professions! This is one of the reasons why we've differentiated between Workforce and Dependents, rather than Men, Women, Children, Seniors etc. There are too many idiosyncratic cultural variations - and cultures changing over the eras - to model gender norms correctly in every context.

The gameplay effect we're after here is that in the early game, a large number of Pops (whoever they may be) aren't able to contribute to the country's industrialized workforce, can't vote, can't become soldiers, etcetera. Their meager income is considered to be earned outside the dominant industries and cannot be tracked and taxed by the state, and is affected by laws like Child Labor and Pension institutions. If the country reforms its views on women they gain (among other things) greater access to workforce that can work these formal, taxed, often urban professions. But there will always be a lot of Dependents in every Pop.
Thanks for being so active in the thread, it's fantastic to see and I really hope it can keep going as we get more DDs - always a fantastic differentiator of PDS as the best developer in the world.

For almost all the professions you listed this is a good explanation - but for peasants it isn't. I'm not sure if this is possible in your current system, but I think most nations should begin with a legal situation that allows almost parity in the quantity of specifically peasant work done by men and women, since that's my understanding (could be wrong of course) of the default situation globally for most of history. The idea that women stayed at home and men worked is basically exclusive to the richer classes, subsistence farmers worked - whatever their genders.

This work being done globally by women (and children while we are at it) was defiantly taxed and tracked by the state. It made up fully half of the main industry in pre-industrial sociaties.
 
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A single state can support numerous variations of different mines, agriculture, plantations, logging, fishing etc and you can definitely have a state where almost the entire population lives and works in the urban area.
Thank you Wiz! That's great news, it'll be exciting to play a smaller country and focus on exporting goods.
 
A single state can support numerous variations of different mines, agriculture, plantations, logging, fishing etc and you can definitely have a state where almost the entire population lives and works in the urban area.
Awesome, maybe I missed it but have you talked about food yet? Is it operated like any other good - or does it have it's own special mechanics?

Can I build a weird england entierly dependent on importing food from scotland and ireland because everyone in england is working in a factory?
 
Awesome, maybe I missed it but have you talked about food yet? Is it operated like any other good - or does it have it's own special mechanics?

Can I build a weird england entierly dependent on importing food from scotland and ireland because everyone in england is working in a factory?
I think I read somewhere that food covers a number of goods - including fish - and that pops will consume whichever food good is easiest to get hold of where they are.
 
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I think I read somewhere that food covers a number of goods - including fish - and that pops will consume whichever food good is easiest to get hold of where they are.


Found it. From the "Vickynomics Panel Write Up" thread:

There are basic economic buildings that extract base resources i.e Farms, Mines etc. which then feed into more complex manufacturing industries. Some basic resources are also consumed like Grain & Fish
Depending on poptype and class consumption can differ. Labourers arent very picky, if you are a coastal country with lots of fishing then that will do. If you have lots of arable land and grow grain than you can feed your population that way instead. But higher classes will demand more and different goods like Cigars and Tea.
 
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what i have read in this DD is great and above my expectations. POP illustrations are also very nice. At first i thought that it would be great to improve illustrations with adding whole family, but now i have doubts, because in this case different professions can be mixed at the same picture.
 
tl;dr: Remember that we represent every individual workplace in each state as well, so we actually have substantially more granularity to Pop "location" than in previous titles.



We do actually! With respect to the USA, each current US state corresponds exactly to one named state region in the game (although in some cases state regions can split into multiple states owned by different countries.) Pops can move freely within workplaces in their state, while they need to undergo migration in order to move between states.

With respect to granularity though, there's really no downside to having Pops be able to move freely within their state rather than having to migrate between a handful of provinces within the same state as in previous titles. We still represent the urban/rural divide by permitting many, many different types of industry in each state, including both manufacturing and resource industries (as opposed to one static "RGO" per province) and service/governmental/infrastructure/military workplaces. These different industries and workplaces are visually grouped on the map such that you can see the urbanization and growth of some parts of your state compared to others.
Will there be a law that denies some pops the ability to move to other provinces? For example, farmers in underdeveloped regions?
(sorry for my English)
 
I don't think they mean "States" as in "US States"; California would likely be broken up into several states, like in EU4.
The amount of states is very similar to Vicky 2 where California was indeed just one province. They might divide it in two, but that shouldn’t be the default thinking. The entire state system is based on us states which is why almost every one of them were a single unit in Vicky 2