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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #1 - Pops

Dev Diary 1.png


Hello everyone! I’m Mikael, Victoria 3’s lead game designer - and oh boy does it feel good to finally be able to say that out loud! Today I have the pleasure to reveal some details about that one feature everyone thinks about when they hear “Victoria” - the Pops.

Pops were introduced in the very first Victoria game to represent your country’s population. Pop mechanics have since snuck into other Paradox titles like Stellaris and Imperator. But this in-depth population simulation is what Victoria is about, and we’re going to bring you a system with more depth than ever before!

In Victoria 3, Pops are the country’s engine - they work the industries, they pay the taxes, they operate the government institutions, and they fight the wars. They’re born, they die, they change occupation, they migrate. And they organize, get angry, and start revolutions.

Every Pop is visualized so you can see which demographic sports the best moustache. Note that Pop portraits are very much a work in progress!
ClergyCrop.png


You, the player, might be in charge of the country, but you’re not in charge of the Pops and can’t manipulate them directly. Yet everything you do to the country affects them, and they in turn will react in what they perceive to be their own best interests. A large part of your game will consist of trying to sate your population’s appetites for material goods or political reform. But most actions you will take aren’t to the benefit of every Pop in your nation, and by making life better for one part of the population you may inadvertently upset another demographic.

The most important aspect of Pops are their Professions, which reflects the types of jobs it carries out in the building where they work. A Pop’s profession determines its social class and can affect its wages, political strength, what other professions it might qualify for, and particularly which political Interest Groups it’s prone to supporting (which you will hear lots more about in future Dev Diaries.) Some of the Pop professions you will encounter in Victoria 3 are Aristocrats, Capitalists, Bureaucrats, Officers, Shopkeepers, Machinists, Laborers, and Peasants. Investing in industries that provide job opportunities for the kinds of professions you want to encourage in your country is key to the “society building” gameplay of Victoria 3.

Every variation of Profession, Culture, Religion, and Workplace in the world gets its own unique Pop. At any given time this results in many tens of thousands of Pops in the world working, migrating, procreating, and agitating.
Aristocrats.png


The people that make up a Pop are distinguished into Workforce and Dependents. Members of the Workforce keep the buildings in the game operational and collect a wage from them in return. Those who cannot or aren’t permitted to be officially employed are considered Dependents. They collect only a small income from odd jobs and government programs.

Laws affect who is included in each category. At game start most countries do not accept women working and collecting a wage outside the home but by reforming laws governing the rights of women more Dependent Pops will enter the Workforce over time. By abolishing child labor, the amount of income Dependents bring home will decrease but will make it easier to educate your populace, increasing their overall Literacy. After a bloody war many Dependents of soldiers may be left without sufficient income, and you may decide to institute pensions to help your population recover.

In short: nothing in your country runs without Pops, and everything about your country affects those Pops, who in turn provide new opportunities and challenges during your tumultuous journey through the Victorian era and beyond.

I have oh so much more to say, but that is all for this week! You will hear much more from me in future Dev Diaries. Next week Martin will return to explain something quite central to the game - Capacities!
 
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It is looking like they are defining pops by gender as well
That's not what's happening, it's just Workforce and Dependents. What is happening is that reforms to allow more women into the workforce will move people in certain POPs from dependents to workforce, increasing the percentage of that POP that can make an income and goods at RGOs and factories. Same with laws banning child labor moving people in the POP from workforce to dependent.
 
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That's not what's happening, it's just Workforce and Dependents. What is happening is that reforms to allow more women into the workforce will move people in certain POPs from dependents to workforce, increasing the percentage of that POP that can make an income and goods at RGOs and factories. Same with laws banning child labor moving people in the POP from workforce to dependent.
I think the second part of this is wrong. Banning child labor decreases the amount of money Dependents earn, according to the dev diary. It doesn't shift people out of the Workforce.
 
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Huh? Women and children existing are "modern political issues"????
It's a little known fact but women and children were actually invented by Vladimir Lenin when he created communism in 1917.

I think he did a very good job.
I'm just hoping they have yellow Prussia
Gross. Prussia needs to be light blue.
I think the second part of this is wrong. Banning child labor decreases the amount of money Dependents earn, according to the dev diary. It doesn't shift people out of the Workforce.
I figure this is because working children do not fill the position of an employed adult. It does not make sense to substitute adults with children in the number of people in the workforce. I hope women will be treated as part of the workforce in professions where that is historically appropriate.

Speaking of. I don't understand what is so complicated about including female 3D portraits conceptually. The implication seems to be that they only want to show women character models when appropriate? Why not always show a male and female member of the pop as representatives, considering that the gender within it ought to be pretty evenly distributed (excluding outliers like celibate clergy)? The social status of the woman can still be represented in aspects like her attire and pose. I don't like the presumption that showing the male is the default and maybe you get to see a woman when the circumstances are right, even if men are socially more prominent. Women will always be half your population, you should see them.

The only reason not to do this is performance.
 
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So, can we develop tech upgrades to improve moustache quality? Processed moustache oils from colonial provinces? We must know!
 
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A question about POP religion effects. Will you model the friction of religion within a state? Sunni vs. Shia, Protestant vs. Catholic? Christian vs. Muslim? Multiple examples in history of religious beliefs impacting politics, culture, and economics. For example, Irish Catholics in Boston had a different viewpoint and economic outlook on matters compared to their New England protestants neighbors. Both of those changed over time.
 
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I think it would actually make great sense to illustrate pops with multiple people, as it will also make it clear that it is a group, not an individual. And it feels like a great way to make changes to representation, rights etc. more than just a change to a number.
yes, I think it would be nice for pops to show multiple people, maybe a man, woman and child? It would be nice to see how the different genders in different cultures and classes dressed during the time period.
 
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I think it would actually make great sense to illustrate pops with multiple people, as it will also make it clear that it is a group, not an individual. And it feels like a great way to make changes to representation, rights etc. more than just a change to a number.
Yes I think that could be a good idea. At least it would be worth trying. My only reservation against it would be that it's probably "cleaner" with only one person. In terms of "readability".. but yeah, why not?
 
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Yes I think that could be a good idea. At least it would be worth trying. My only reservation against it would be that it's probably "cleaner" with only one person. In terms of "readability".. but yeah, why not?
As I think of it, it might actually possibly provide some extra info.

I agree that it should probably show at least 1 man, woman, and child. And you can at a glance get an idea on their typical roles within the pop and well as (for women) reflect on their standing. Clear dependents are maybe more likely to be "farther back" and say as women enter the work force and obtain political power, they are brought more to the forefront. Kids that are in school wear school clothes, yet those that work jobs have more work clothes and whatnot.
 
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That's a fairly harsh statement on the culture of New Zealand ;) South Australia (one of the colonies that came together to form Australia) gave women the vote in 1894 as well. Quite difficult before 1900 to be sure, but practically impossible feels ahistorical. More importantly, what I'd like is for the situation in that society to make sense for it to be happening, rather than dating when it should be hard/easy/etc., based on history. If women's voting rights were based on technological developments that have a minimum time that they can be developed, well and good, but if it's due to more complex social ideas, then the scope for variance in that happening is likely to be greater.
I absolutely agree that it should be (dis/)incentivised by organic factors in the game, not arbitrarily limited. One issue might be that I don't think there is a very clear consensus on the roots of the developments in suffrage. Charles Tilly's ideas about democracy (best set out in the book "Democracy", coincidentally...) I do find fascinating and quite persuasive. Basically he suggests that men get the vote when the state needs manpower for mass mobilisation wars, women get the vote when the state needs their labour to support those wars. The dates of general suffrage tend to support that, it seems to me. It also explains why places such as Russia, where manpower was much more plentiful in relation to the capital infrastructure also required for mass mobilisation warfare, saw universal suffrage granted more reluctantly (and taken more violently).

There are more than just Black People and White People in the world. Having a darker skin doesn't make one black.
That may be true, but most of the problems seem to arise not from the degree of dermal darkness needed to be black, but from the degree of "whiteness" demanded in order to be "white", it seems to me.

If the only obstacle was political you could play as an absolute monarch, pretend your king was handed some Wollstonecraft, and double your productivity overnight providing the military didn't start a chauvinist coup or something.
Except that it wouldn't happen, because those "dependants" are not in fact sat around idle waiting for work to be opened up to them. It has been legal for women (and often children) to work more or less forever in some places, but that doesn't mean that households have not needed "dependants" to work at home. A more neutral way to see dependants might be that, in any household, there is a certain percentage of the daily labour that has to be spent on household maintenance. What decides who actually does this and when is a mostly cultural thing that may be affected, but is not determined, by laws.

Clergy of religions with monastic traditions (Mahayana, Orthodox) or even clerical celibacy (Catholic) should probably have less Dependents than clergy of religions without.
Such clergy still effectively have households, though. They have novices and servants, and often look after the sick, old, orphaned and such like. Once you move away from the idea that "household" means "breadwinner man plus wife and children" I think the "workers plus dependants" model works extremely well, in general. The ratio of workers to dependants and all sorts of related features might be affected, within certain bounds, by all sorts of laws, technologies, cultural factors and whatever else; I can see a great model springing out of this!

So, can we develop tech upgrades to improve moustache quality? Processed moustache oils from colonial provinces? We must know!
A nice, amusing comment, but... I think it brings up a very fascinating aspect of economy to potentially play with in the game! Fashion affecting demand has been a massive factor in business and economics for centuries, at least. Cultural effects, cultural change and fashion are areas that don't seem to me to be very well understood from a "scientific" viewpoint, but might make fascinating areas of experimentation for a game such as Victoria :cool:
 
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Except that it wouldn't happen, because those "dependants" are not in fact sat around idle waiting for work to be opened up to them. It has been legal for women (and often children) to work more or less forever in some places, but that doesn't mean that households have not needed "dependants" to work at home. A more neutral way to see dependants might be that, in any household, there is a certain percentage of the daily labour that has to be spent on household maintenance. What decides who actually does this and when is a mostly cultural thing that may be affected, but is not determined, by laws.
I'm speaking of in-game, obviously it wouldn't have been that easy in real life. I'm just worried that Pdox will minimise these old contributions and generally incentivise the player to socially progress the country along modern-day lines as fast as possible.
 
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I hope the pop art style shifts a bit to be more stylized, because I don't love the appearance. I don't really like any of the PDX character art save for HoI4 (or Stellaris but those are harder since they're aliens) where it's more clearly artistic than someone actually trying to make a clear model of someone.

But if it does not, how hard is Vic3 planning on making it to mod the pop art?
 

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Yes I think that could be a good idea. At least it would be worth trying. My only reservation against it would be that it's probably "cleaner" with only one person. In terms of "readability".. but yeah, why not?
You could have two different "states" for the icons. Assuming it's all 3D models or at least based on them (3D model that is then rendered for a 2D icon elsewhere), you'd have "full" portraits that show a nuclear family (man, woman and child most commonly, I'd imagine) typical for the pop in question. These full portraits would be for cases like the detailed pop screen and other places where the visualized pop has enough space to properly showcase the (stereo)typical average family unit of the pop.

Then you'd have smaller icons that only have one person represent the entire pop. This would be what we have now, the (stereo)typical average man of the pop in question. Or average woman, if Paradox gets that working while still keeping clarity. I'd imagine it would be rather like Vicky 2's pop icons, just rendered from a 3D model in a way to showcase the profession clearly.

But overall, I agree that having multiple people represent a pop would help visualizing the pop enormously. Particularly if it's a family unit, to showcase how they dress up and hold themselves.
 
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