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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

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Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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I wonder about one slider which is related to Culture. If I max out that slider does it mean that my culture will spread faster to newly acquiered territories? If it does then how missionaries play into this? For example if I play as Ottomans, conquer Greek culture territories, instead of religious conversion could I have a case where Greeks or Romans addopted Turkish culture while staying Orthodox?

This is more me asking myself not a real question although I wouldn't mind if devs came and gave a hint.
 
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Does money spent on stability ‘go’ anywhere? Or does it disappear into the ether?

And will we have pop-level unrest values? If so, isn’t an state-wide stability figure almost redundant?
 
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You keep mentioning gold. What happened to ducats?

same stuff, i just call it gold, as thats what its been called in the code since first alpha of eu1.
 
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You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though
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sounds pretty good ngl. now add meaningful embargoes too to top it of and we are gucci
 
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With the map being so detailed in project caesar, Is there a chance that couto misto could make an appearance? It's been my dream to play as the tiny state in a paradox game ever since I found out about it's existence,
 
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I know sliders are loved by some people, but for taxes I'd expect those to increase or decrease not so granular, but for example we would have a decret to increase taxes, and this would have an immediate decrease of estate loyalty AND reducing equilibrium, so that its easier to increase taxes slowly rather than quickly

With the current system, for example we can have, tax 10% percent, loyalty is 90, equilibrium is 60
Does it mean I can up tax to 90%, reducing the equilibrium to 20, get the extra money while loyalty slowly goes down,and once it reaches 60 I lower the tax like nothing happened but i got more money? Wouldn't that be some microing taxes exploit?
 
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Is there any point to no put armies and navies maintenance to zero while at peace?
Other than being ready for day 1 of war?

There are some drawbacks to it :)
 
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Hmmmm, you'll probably go into this next week, but what happens to taxes on pops that are not part of any estates? Is there a separate system for those?
 
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same stuff, i just call it gold, as thats what its been called in the code since first alpha of eu1.
In the future economy TT, you speak of plunder and sacking economy, i mean for YEARS the plunder was a good economy integration (exemple for england during 100 years wars)
 
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I have a suggestion to make, the reduction in estate satisfaction caused by hiw much you tax them should be scaled, at least somewhat, to the maximum amount their privledges allow you to take. That is to say, if your privledges allow you to tax nobility at 15%, if you are in fact raising taxes to the full 15%, it should cause more dissatisfation than if they were taxed at 15% when the cap is 50%. Though perhaps the difference shouldn't be 100% corrected. This is to represent how people become accustomed to the privledges they have, and a society that is used to heavy taxation will be more tolerant of tax hikes than one that isn't. Though perhaps that could be represented with other mechanics.

Also, is there are a particular reason selling food is distinguished from trade income? I assume that what the former represents is duties on internal trade of foodstuffs, so it's broadly comparable to other kinds of trade income; it is domestic but I assume some normal trade income will be as well.
 
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inflation is increased by minting coins. What reduces it?

not minting has a small reduction, but there are other ways
 
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Hey Johan.

Are there any systems in place that prevent 'having infinite money'? In EU4 money is really tight. Then manufactories happen and after investing a few decades, suddenly money is no issue anymore. Have you thought about lategame economy? Any system in place that encourages you to spend your money? While I'm not the biggest fan of Victoria 3, I did like how they heavily incentivized to spend your money.

The most obvious money sink is probably allowing money to spent on automatic/internal development.
 
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The Dhimmi estate is an abstraction we don't need in the game, especially now when Project Caesar has population. Is there any possibility of estates being divided amongst religious/cultural lines? I think this would be a more fun way of representing the Dhimmi estate, which would also allow for other countries (not just the Muslims) to manage and interact with their minorities.
 
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