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Stellaris Dev Diary #94 - Ascension Perks & Surveying in Cherryh

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris dev diary. Today's topic was supposed to be ship balance and doomstacks, but because certain things weren't ready to show off yet, we're instead going to be doing a smaller dev diary talking about some changes coming to Ascension Perks and Surveying. We'll get back to the doomstack topic in a couple weeks.

Ascension Perks
Ascension Perks were added in Utopia as the paid component to the Tradition system to create a set of interesting choices for the player to take as they went through the Tradition tree, choosing between simple but powerful bonuses and more elaborate 'unlocks' such as the ascension paths and Megastructures. However, since then we have noticed that this is a system we keep wanting to build on (for example by adding unique Ascension Perks for Machine Empires as we did in Synthetic Dawn), and found the requirement to depend all of this on Utopia too limiting. For this reason, in the Cherryh update, we are going to make the basic Ascension Perks such as Mastery of Nature, Defender of the Galaxy and so on free for everyone. Biological/Psionic/Synthetic Ascension Paths and Megastructure Ascension Perks (including Habitats) will still require Utopia and Machine Empire Ascension Perks will naturally still require Synthetic Dawn (but not Utopia). The core system itself however, will become part of the base game, so everyone will be able to get at least the basic set of Ascension Perks even if they don't own a single piece of DLC.

Surveying & Communications Trading
The way surveying, anomaly generation and star chart trading works has never really worked very well. For one, it's very unclear to players that for example, you cannot discover anomalies in other empires' space, or that star chart trading can actually be a bad idea since it can in some cases stop you from finding anomalies in those systems. For this reason, we've decided to make some changes to the way surveying works. In Cherryh, any system inside the borders of an empire you have communications with will automatically be considered surveyed, without any need to send a science ship into it and waste a bunch of time scanning planets that have no chance of yielding anomalies aynway. There are some exceptions to this, such as Fallen Empires, whose space will need to be surveyed manually and can in fact yield anomalies.

As part of this we have decided to remove Star Chart trading as well as the ability to buy Star Charts from Curators, and instead replace this with the option to trade Communications with another empire - acquiring Communications from an empire in a trade deal will automatically put you in comms with any empires they have comms with that you do not. This should mean that there are no longer any 'traps' in surveying, while also requiring the need to explore every little nook of the galaxy even when that nook is held by your ally since a hundred years back.
2017_11_16_1.png


Terra Incognita Changes
Finally, I just wanted to mentioned that we have done some changes to Terra Incognita to make it more clear and make it work properly with bypasses (Wormholes and Gateways). Instead of Terra Incognita being based on which physical pixels on the map your ships have 'seen', it is now based on which systems are considered visited. Visited either means that you have been to the system with a ship, or that the system is inside the borders of an empire that you have communications with. As such, Terra Incognita no longer needs to be manually lifted on empires you have met in order to not make them appear grey and washed out on the map, also making it easier to see important galactic features such as nebulas.
2017_11_16_2.png


That's all for today! I know it was a short one, but don't worry, we still have a long way to go and plenty of major things to talk about for Cherryh. However, next week we're actually going to be talking about something that's§ unrelated to Cherryh, but exciting nonetheless. I'm not allowed to spoil what just yet, but stay tuned!
 

Madzai

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Yes, and that is not how the devs have intended it to work. So now it is being fixed.
Well, all this going to gimp Exploring as a concept a lot (not to mention bonuses you get from it in current version). With default game settings, even on max-sized map you'll run out of the things to survey pretty fast. With addition of "space terrain" with some part of galaxy being cut off in early game, possible exploration is lowered even further. And the exploartion an surveying was one of the major selling points of Stellaris (together with different FTL, btw). Now it's gimped in a major way. Even if i understand why they making this changes, what we will get in return? Most of other planned things are rework of currents mechanics. And not something new.
 

Republic of Mercury

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Interesting diary. I'm glad we're not going to end up with a situation like Estates in Eu4. And I still plan on buying Utopia anyway.

That is not what I was thinking about. It is clear that I can't survey other empires planets. That means I can't get the percursor artifacts the normal way.
So my question is if I found half of the percursor artifacts of one percursor civ and my neighbour found the other half will I get what my neigbour found (and they what I found) the moment we make contact or is the chain broken?

Precursor artifacts don't work that way; it doesn't matter what your neighbour does or doesn't find. They might find 6 Yuht artifacts on one half of the galaxy, and you could find those some ones in the other half.
 

ISitOnGnomes

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Precursor artifacts don't work that way; it doesn't matter what your neighbour does or doesn't find. They might find 6 Yuht artifacts on one half of the galaxy, and you could find those some ones in the other half.

On top of that you aren't even limited to 6 yourself. I've actually found 9 artifacts before I could get a high enough level scientist to research the 6 i needed.
 

Shadeseraph

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With addition of "space terrain" with some part of galaxy being cut off in early game, possible exploration is lowered even further.

Correction: possible "early game" exploration is lowered even further. You are basically delaying the exploration to later on, which is actually a neat idea because that way the exploration becomes something still important in the mid (and maybe even late) game as well. It can create neat effects like eventually being able to discover "america".

This is one part that IMO is missing right now - most 4X games based on land maps have things like the need to develop seafaring technologies to be able to explore beyond your original continent. Civilization, for example, requires you to develop technologies for shallow and then deep water - finding a large undiscovered island or continent ripe for colonization is always a great feeling. In stellaris, right now, the only barriers for exploration are basically your neightbours.

Also, it allows for a better scaling for exploration rewards. Open space anomalies could be scaled to early empires, while anomalies in hard to reach places could be more powerful, like finding the sanctuary or the cradle of an old civilization...
 

Molikroth

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You have not yet address the compensation part. Now that main selling point of Utopia is gone, what do we get in exchange?

I don't think you're going to see any "compensation" for the again, very minor part of the DLC that has been made free. By all means if you disagree with not receiving such compensation, vote with your wallet and don't buy any upcoming DLCs, that's your right. However, I think that you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
 

Zergash

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There is no advantage to not trading comms in regards to surveying. You can't generate anomalies in other empires' space even if you haven't met them (because, again, this could result in deposits in your space wildly changing without you being able to control it).

Well that's what you get for opening your borders!
Damn those meddling kids!

On a more serious note, I don't see this as a problem, as more often then not, you GAIN more research / minerals as you loose them... however it should be a "final" amount of anomalies within a system that can be discovered, so if that is depleted, the system is "researched"...

And you could think about it "refreshing" after a loooong time again. This could easily explain how a fallen empire who has not bothered to scan their system for hundreds of years can still hold some anomalies to others...

However it would be great to get a small information / survey report what they found, or you could intercept some descions as they affect YOUR systems. So just the "finding" of an anomaly would be fine for me, and you could say via rules/edicts, "my allies are allowed to conduct anomaly research within my borders" or "no one is allowed to research anything within my borders" for more xenophobe pops...
 

Deggial

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The issue I see with this is that they would have to remove the ability to click on a far away star and let your ship automatically path there, because the alternatives would be to either reveal the hyperlane route used (making the whole exercise pointless), or otherwise add a lot of UI confusion if you hide the pathing ("wait, just where was this ship going, again?")

You'd only be able to order your ships to move to adjacent systems, which would make exploration a gigantic hassle. No more chaining up survey orders, etc. And the AI would be completely unaffected by all this.

A bit too late in my response (the thread moves fast and is filled with unfortunate mundane, not game related posts), sorry.

Regarding the first part of your response: Couldn't the pathfinding just take only known lanes into account and if a player wants to travel to a system without known "pathway" simply fail with an according error message? Seems straight foward and comprehensible for the player.

Regarding system-by-system exploration: You are right! At least in the beginning, when looking into adjacent systems due to the lack of better sensors isn't possible, this would be necessary. But at this point, there is not so much to do anyway. Later, with better scanners, lanes could be exposed further away and planning exploration routes would be streamlined a bit. For me, this game mechanic seems more interesting, finding usefull routes very rewarding and fun. But I do understand your concerns and have to admit that tastes are different. That's why I proposed a menue option "reveal all hyper-lanes from start" in the mentioned suggetion.
 

George The Eco

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It would be fairly cool if you could mark certain systems as "classified" that would stop allies seeing them and also make them harder to see via enemy actions in general. This could give you a combat modifier as your enemy will be less prepared as well as hiding your true strength. Though the more planets you classify the more damage it does to relationships.(Although the enemy would not be able to see these planets anyway if all your allies can see it it will be easier to get through espionage.) You can then choose how classified a planet is. would give a solid reason for an espionage game as well as adding another element to the diplomacy game.
 

AresOfThrace

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Hey you guys ranting about these utopia features being made free... would you also freak out if paradox announced that from today on Utopia will be 50% off forever?

Just sayin'. I'm rather worried about the people that still have to buy it.
 

Nippleworthy

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Hey you guys ranting about these utopia features being made free... would you also freak out if paradox announced that from today on Utopia will be 50% off forever?

Just sayin'. I'm rather worried about the people that still have to buy it.

You have not yet address the compensation part. Now that main selling point of Utopia is gone, what do we get in exchange?

Mathers is quite right, therefore, I suggest that @Wiz (on his own cost) be forced, to send a free sticker to everyone affected.

A sticker with a pickled cucumber, it says: "Dill with it!"
 

Nikolai II

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There is no advantage to not trading comms in regards to surveying. You can't generate anomalies in other empires' space even if you haven't met them (because, again, this could result in deposits in your space wildly changing without you being able to control it).

Once I take their systems, can I survey them then? (Especially interesting if my anomaly generation chance is through the roof when compared to theirs)
 

Slynx

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You have not yet address the compensation part. Now that main selling point of Utopia is gone, what do we get in exchange?
main selling point? don't make me laugh.
main selling point of utopia is Megastructures. Ascension Paths and Hiveminds. and also huge changes in the game that came with 1.6.
it's not some tiny basic perks.

and I guess i'll repeat what I've said few pages ago:
also you may not know this...but you can always revert your game version to 1.0 (or any previous) if you really like to experience features that you liked\bought\etc. I guess if you revert your game to 1.6 you will be able to play the games where ascension perks were available only to those who bought Utopia
so by this logic no compensation will even needed
 
Last edited:

mightnight

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acquiring Communications from an empire in a trade deal will automatically put you in comms with any empires they have comms with that you do not.
ok so what is the point of having the first contact hostility option anymore? I think you guys should rework that policy
 

Risa

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Once I take their systems, can I survey them then? (Especially interesting if my anomaly generation chance is through the roof when compared to theirs)
You can't (re-)survey an already surveyed system. I think that's obvious.