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Stellaris Dev Diary #94 - Ascension Perks & Surveying in Cherryh

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris dev diary. Today's topic was supposed to be ship balance and doomstacks, but because certain things weren't ready to show off yet, we're instead going to be doing a smaller dev diary talking about some changes coming to Ascension Perks and Surveying. We'll get back to the doomstack topic in a couple weeks.

Ascension Perks
Ascension Perks were added in Utopia as the paid component to the Tradition system to create a set of interesting choices for the player to take as they went through the Tradition tree, choosing between simple but powerful bonuses and more elaborate 'unlocks' such as the ascension paths and Megastructures. However, since then we have noticed that this is a system we keep wanting to build on (for example by adding unique Ascension Perks for Machine Empires as we did in Synthetic Dawn), and found the requirement to depend all of this on Utopia too limiting. For this reason, in the Cherryh update, we are going to make the basic Ascension Perks such as Mastery of Nature, Defender of the Galaxy and so on free for everyone. Biological/Psionic/Synthetic Ascension Paths and Megastructure Ascension Perks (including Habitats) will still require Utopia and Machine Empire Ascension Perks will naturally still require Synthetic Dawn (but not Utopia). The core system itself however, will become part of the base game, so everyone will be able to get at least the basic set of Ascension Perks even if they don't own a single piece of DLC.

Surveying & Communications Trading
The way surveying, anomaly generation and star chart trading works has never really worked very well. For one, it's very unclear to players that for example, you cannot discover anomalies in other empires' space, or that star chart trading can actually be a bad idea since it can in some cases stop you from finding anomalies in those systems. For this reason, we've decided to make some changes to the way surveying works. In Cherryh, any system inside the borders of an empire you have communications with will automatically be considered surveyed, without any need to send a science ship into it and waste a bunch of time scanning planets that have no chance of yielding anomalies aynway. There are some exceptions to this, such as Fallen Empires, whose space will need to be surveyed manually and can in fact yield anomalies.

As part of this we have decided to remove Star Chart trading as well as the ability to buy Star Charts from Curators, and instead replace this with the option to trade Communications with another empire - acquiring Communications from an empire in a trade deal will automatically put you in comms with any empires they have comms with that you do not. This should mean that there are no longer any 'traps' in surveying, while also requiring the need to explore every little nook of the galaxy even when that nook is held by your ally since a hundred years back.
2017_11_16_1.png


Terra Incognita Changes
Finally, I just wanted to mentioned that we have done some changes to Terra Incognita to make it more clear and make it work properly with bypasses (Wormholes and Gateways). Instead of Terra Incognita being based on which physical pixels on the map your ships have 'seen', it is now based on which systems are considered visited. Visited either means that you have been to the system with a ship, or that the system is inside the borders of an empire that you have communications with. As such, Terra Incognita no longer needs to be manually lifted on empires you have met in order to not make them appear grey and washed out on the map, also making it easier to see important galactic features such as nebulas.
2017_11_16_2.png


That's all for today! I know it was a short one, but don't worry, we still have a long way to go and plenty of major things to talk about for Cherryh. However, next week we're actually going to be talking about something that's§ unrelated to Cherryh, but exciting nonetheless. I'm not allowed to spoil what just yet, but stay tuned!
 

razaron

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Interesting, I didn't know owned systems don't give anomalies.

From what I understand of the changes:
Pros:
- No more star charts
- Streamlined comms data acquisition
- no more conquering mystery systems

Cons:
- no more conquering mystery systems (then surveying)
- Isolationists forced to give survey data
- Planetary Survey Corps nerf

The PSC nerf is just a balance issue, so only the first 2 cons actually matter. I personally think the pros outway the cons, especially since Wiz mentioned adding espionage in the future. Espionage would defintely fix the second con and posibly the first con, as well.
Also, star charts are stupid newb traps.


I just had a thought. Do AI surveys generate anomalies? If so then the chance of a system having anomalies would keep increasing until someone owns it. Statistically making unowned space more powerful over time, which is quite cool.

The devs could implement late game goody islands by simply increasing the average level of anomalies over time, effectively making those hard to reach areas dynamically turn into goody islands. Dynamic generating would work much better than manually generating at the start because it would cover edge cases, like systems locked behind a fallen empire and the far side of the galaxy if all the empires spawn on one side, sort of like the new world.
Obviously this could be cheesed by delaying surveyal of your surroundings, but if you don't survey a system you can't build an outpost there and if you don't survey your surrounding systems you won't know the best direction to expand in. So delaying surveys on purpose for 100 years would be stupid.
 

Dutch Vader

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half? nice joke. they said they are giving only the basics for free. not half.
and most of the basic perks(assuming on what's been mentioned) are not worth taking anyway.


Fine they are giving away 10.54% of a feuture for free. I dont care how good or bad any of those perks are. Its about me having paid money for something and then having it given away free later. I believe they compansate for people who paid for it. Its a principle thing not a gameplay or game quality thing.
 

arc2611

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I mean, the whole reason they're doing this is because they're planning to add new Ascension Perks in the future. Chances are some of those Ascension Perks will be Utopia/other DLC exclusive, so you'll get your "compensation" if and when that happens, and whatever new perks they add will probably be more interesting and flavourful than the ones which are being made free.
 

Heretic Saint

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I think I see where some people are getting confused about the Communication issue. Granted, this is basing new info on how things currently work, so I may be wrong, but, here’s how unsee it working:

When the special project for a new species is completed and you begin diplomacy (currently shows borders/territory, allows for basic trading, etc), that will stay the same. You can end the process there, and all you will know about the other is where your respective empires begin and end.

If you do the optional diplomacy to share Communications (note the capital ‘C’), you can see what resources lie in each other’s systems, as if you had sent science ships in to scan (but not any stations/outposts). Similarly, any other empires either of you agree to share Communications with will at some point receive the same intel.

So, if you don’t want other filthy xeno empires to know what goodies you are sitting on, the answer is simple. Never establish Communications.
The confusion may be due to choice of words, but read the first post again and notice how they mention "communications" with a small c, and "Communications" capitalized. The small communications is diplomatic contact. If you are able to talk to another empire, you are in comms. This means you are automatically sharing all your maps. The Communications Treaty is about the proliferation of the very same information beyond just these two parties -- when you are in Communications, you gain all the information the other empire has gained by communications. Likewise, the only thing you're trading away is information on other empires you have been in contact with.

You have no control over your own empire's information not being given away, however. Apparently, this is working as intended:

"This should mean that there are no longer any 'traps' in surveying, while also requiring the need to explore every little nook of the galaxy even when that nook is held by your ally since a hundred years back."

Personally, I hope they will merge this with the Closed Borders Empire Policy. When your borders are closed by default, you should also not share any information with the empires you are in comms with.
 
Last edited:

Slynx

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Fine they are giving away 10.54% of a feuture for free. I dont care how good or bad any of those perks are. Its about me having paid money for something and then having it given away free later. I believe they compansate for people who paid for it. Its a principle thing not a gameplay or game quality thing.
so you'd rather make ascension perks exclusive to utopia owners and will never receive and additional perks through other dlc than accept that some minor features of utopia dlc will be accessible to everyone but the system will be improved and expanded in future, right?
that's a very strange logic
 

Ixal

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Personally I am not a fan of that.
Instead of creating workarounds for surveying I would have liked if anomalies would have been divorced from the surveying state of a planet and instead were a hidden trait of a planet/object seeded at startup and a survey has a chance to discover the anomaly based on tradition, ethos, scientist and tech.
Different anomalies could also have different detection ratings. That way rescanning planets with higher tech would be needed and anomalies would not vanish from the galaxy as fast.
 

Zergor

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Im fine with them giving the mechanics for free. It makes a lot of sense from a design perspective as you otherwise get into situations like the machine world perk that requiring 2 dlc. Thats not the problem I have with it. It is however unfair to make something that people paid for free and then do nothing for those people.

So your reasonning is : Some people got free stuff so I want some free stuff too.
Good thing it does not work that way or paradox could not have sales or bundle without having to give a massive amount of gifts to everyone.

Better see it that way : You paid at a point where the only way to have those options was by paying. So you had at least the exclusivity (with other ones that bought it) for some time, that count.
 

Dutch Vader

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Okay, but why is it unfair? If I bought 200 copies of Utopia and just started handing them out would it be unfair that 200 people got it and not 201? People are acting like they're taking something from you but they aren't.

How is that even a comparable situation? If you bought 200 copies then they are your 200 copies and you should be able to with it as you see fit.

Once again im not pissed about them giving 4 perks away for free. Its the lack of compansation to those people who did pay for it that is unfair.

If you want to complain that your DLC is suddenly worth less or it's not fair that Paradox is giving these features out fine, but don't pretend that you're not being selfish because that's what it looks like when you say "Bob can play with my toys, but I want a new transformer because he is"

So I dont even see how this insult can apply with what a said above. Once again its not the giving out for free. Its the lack of compansation for those who did pay.
 

mysticdueler

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The confusion may be due to choice of words, but read the first post again and notice how they mention "communications" with a small c, and "Communications" capitalized. The small communications is diplomatic contact. If you are able to talk to another empire, you are in comms. This means you are automatically sharing all your maps. The Communications Treaty is about the proliferation of the very same information beyond just these two parties -- when you are in Communications, you gain all the information the other empire has gained by communications.

You have no control over your information not being given away, however. Apparently, this is working as intended:

"This should mean that there are no longer any 'traps' in surveying, while also requiring the need to explore every little nook of the galaxy even when that nook is held by your ally since a hundred years back."

Personally, I hope they will merge this with the Closed Borders Empire Policy. When your borders are closed by default, you should also not share any information with the empires you are in comms with.

I actually just did that, and I believe you are right. I would hope it could work the way I mis-described it, though
 

Ur-Quan Lord 13

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No, it does not. What it does is make it so you don't have to survey systems where you can't get anomalies anyway.
Well... There is still a difference.

Right now (as far as I've seen) being within another empire's borders is the ONLY thing that prevents anomaly discovery. Not whether it's been surveyed before, or how many times. I've heard that the same planet can't give an anomaly twice, so maybe that's true, but all the other planets that didn't get anomalies when surveyed by other empires, can still get them, as long as they're in your territory or neutral...

Before the last update, when I'd end up destroying large swathes of mining and research stations when I waged war, if my victim had previously closed borders to me (or I was careful not to survey his systems)... I would now have a large swathe of "unsurveyed" worlds that are no longer another empire's territory. And I'd improve them, by resurveying them. Really, they could get better and better every time they switched hands! This happens a lot less now, since I don't set my ships to blow up mining/research stations, and you can't resurvey worlds you're already gathering known resources from. But if I switched stances, it would still work.

Now, that's gone, and I'm fine with that... But meanwhile... Will neutral space still have a chance to give up anomalies to every empire that surveys it?

(To be fair, I have no way to be certain that AIs even get anomalies, but I assume they must as it would be a big disadvantage. But, I can't specifically recall, for example, finding a shadow play or grimacing world in neutral territory, unless I'm the one who created it... So I dunno.)
 

Molikroth

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How is that even a comparable situation? If you bought 200 copies then they are your 200 copies and you should be able to with it as you see fit.

Once again im not pissed about them giving 4 perks away for free. Its the lack of compansation to those people who did pay for it that is unfair.



So I dont even see how this insult can apply with what a said above. Once again its not the giving out for free. Its the lack of compansation for those who did pay.

I'm sorry you feel it's an insult. I'm not trying to insult you. Anyone can be selfish sometimes, that said the compensation you get it continued updates to the game and more perks which is exactly what you're asking for. The only thing you aren't getting is those being locked behind Utopia. That said, you seem to get the reasons why, so I guess just stick to your principals. It just seems to me those principals are a little selfish in this case.
 

Keltosh

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... Are people REALLY getting upset because a SMALL part of what they bought will be made available to everyone, ONE YEAR or so after?

So make me understand, you didn't play this at all in the intervening year? You did not enjoy it for one year, while other players could not? Really, what the hell?


Complaining for the sake of complaining...
 

G-Flex

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I saw mention of Ascension Perks here, and I'm a bit disappointed that some important issues aren't being addressed with regard to Traditions/Unity.

Specifically, I'd really like to know if there are plans to address:
  1. Unity (and Unity production/buildings/bonuses) being completely useless in the late game, after Traditions have been filled, making a bunch of buildings, civics, etc. instantaneously useless.
  2. Every empire eventually taking every Tradition, regardless of whether they suit the empire or not, simply to get all the perks/finisher bonuses. Tradition swapping (e.g. for Machine Empires and isolationists) helps, but not enough.
 

kreissig

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next week we're actually going to be talking about something that's§ unrelated to Cherryh, but exciting nonetheless.

Stellaris II confirmed. :D
 

ElectricEel

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I'm not sure what to think about the ascension perk changes. The basic version of it being made available for everyone is obviously a positive in the sense that it can be further built on and it's great for those that don't have it, but for those that did buy that DLC, to me it seems like a pretty big downside with nothing to really make up for it.

I fully agree with you. And I have a question to the ones "respectfully disagreeing" with you ory earlier similar complaint. Why? Why is it bad to ask for compensation? Ascension perk were the main selling point of that dlc. Px should discount that or sell that with bundle but not make investments adhocly void.

As someone who has bought Utopia, I back the developers' decision on this 100%. The tendency to introduce a completely unrelated new mechanic in each DLC to try to justify the price tag instead of building onto previously introduced systems is the biggest problem with the development model used for Europa Univeralis 4. Designing an interrelated set of mechanics between all DLCs when each individual player may own any given combination of them, without ever carrying any of the DLC mechanics being built upon over to the main game on account of some DLC buyers complaining that their money was "wasted", would be a development nightmare and a recipe for player confusion, and in this case the developers decided to unlock one of the features being built upon from a previous DLC for all players to simplify the dependencies.

Remember that the purpose of the DLC is to fund the many years of post-release development that make the Paradox development model unique. Your money does not disappear to the ether, it funds the addition of the numerous features and fixes that Paradox provides to all players, including you, in a free patch. It's better to not obsess over whether someone else ended up eventually getting some feature of a DLC you bought "for free" - it will all ultimately result in a better game for everyone.

EDIT: Grammar.
 
Last edited:

Adamsrealm

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Fine they are giving away 10.54% of a feuture for free. I dont care how good or bad any of those perks are. Its about me having paid money for something and then having it given away free later. I believe they compansate for people who paid for it. Its a principle thing not a gameplay or game quality thing.

And you are one of the reasons why game devs pull all sorts of sleazy rubbish like EA. Just becaus it’s free does not mean they are allow to shovel cr*p onto our plates.
 

Adamsrealm

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... Are people REALLY getting upset because a SMALL part of what they bought will be made available to everyone, ONE YEAR or so after?

So make me understand, you didn't play this at all in the intervening year? You did not enjoy it for one year, while other players could not? Really, what the hell?


Complaining for the sake of complaining...

Everyone has different opinions. Now please just be quite on the matter.