• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Stellaris Dev Diary #92: FTL Rework and Galactic Terrain

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary is about Faster than Light travel in the Cherryh update, and it's likely to be a controversial one. When discussing, please remember to keep things civil, and I would kindly ask that you read the entire dev diary before rushing to post, as it's going to cover some of the questions and concerns we expect to see from the playerbase. Also, as posted last week, all of these changes are currently far away, and we cannot give more details on ETAs or the exact nature of the Cherryh update than we already have. Thank you!

FTL Rework
The single biggest design issue we have had to tackle in the Stellaris team since release is the asymmetrical FTL. While it's a cool and interesting idea on paper, the honest truth is that the feature just does not fit well into the game in practice, and blocks numerous improvements on a myriad of other features such as warfare and exploration, as well as solutions to fundamental design problems like the weakness of static defenses. After a lot of debate among the designers, we finally decided that if we were ever going to be able to tackle these issues and turn Stellaris into a game with truly engrossing and interesting warfare, we would have to bite the bullet and take a controversial decision: Consolidating FTL from the current three types down into a primarily hyperlane-based game, with more advanced forms of FTL unlocked through technology.

However, as I have said on the previous occasions when discussing this issue, one thing we would never consider doing is just slashing FTL types from the game without adding in something else to compensate their loss. That is what most of this dev diary is going to be about. However, before continuing with the details on the additions and changes we're making to FTL, I want to cover a couple of the questions I expect will arise from this:

Why are you removing FTL choices instead of building on them?
A lot of people have asked this question when we have brought up consolidating FTL types before, suggesting that problems such as static defenses can be solved by just adding more mechanics to handle each special case. I think the problem with this is best illustrated with defense stations and FTL inhibitors. One of the aims of the Starbase system is to give empires the ability to 'lock down' their borders, building fortresses that enemy fleets cannot simply skip past to strike at their core worlds, instead of having to create static defenses in every single valuable system.

With hyperlanes, this is a pretty simple affair: As hyperlanes create natural choke points, the only thing a hyperlane-stopping FTL inhibitor needs to do is to prevent enemy fleets from leaving the system once they enter it. The fleet can enter, it can retreat (via emergency FTL) and it can bring down the source of the FTL inhibitor (which might be a Starbase or even a planet) to be able to continue. This is quite easy to understand, both in terms of which system you need to defend to lock down your borders, and how it works when you are on the offensive.

Now let's add Warp to the mix. In this case, the single-system FTL inhibitor is useless because Warp fleets can just go over it, so we'll invent another mechanic: A warp interdiction bubble, stretching a certain distance around the system, that pull in any hostile Warp fleets traveling there to the system containing the FTL inhibitor, and force them to battle it or retreat. This is immediately a lot more messy: First of all, this bubble can't possibly affect Hyperlane fleets, because it could potentially pull them dozens of jumps away from their current location. This means that when fortifying your borders, you now need to not just make sure that every important chokepoint is covered, but also that your entire border is covered in warp interdiction bubbles.

But there's more: Add Wormholes as well, and you now have an FTL type where not only the 'bubble' type interdictor doesn't make intuitive sense (because Wormhole fleets make point-to-point jumps rather than traveling over the map) but if said interdictor works to pull Wormhole fleets out of position regardless of what makes intuitive sense, you end up with the same probem as with hyperlanes, where the fleet can get pulled out of range of its wormhole network and end up stranded even if it brings down the defenses. This means you pretty much have to invent a third type of interdiction type for Wormhole on top of what is already an overengineered and hard to understand system.

Finally, add the problem of displaying all these different types of inhibitors and interdictors on the map, in a way that the player can even remotely start to understand, and you end up with nothing short of a complete mess, where it's far better to just have static defenses protecting single valuable systems... and so we come full circle.

This is the fundamental problem that we have been grappling with when it comes to asymmetrical FTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game with real-time gameplay and wars potentially containing a dozen actors, all with their own form of FTL. The complexity collapses into what is for the player just a mess of fleets appearing and disappearing with no discernible logic to them.

Why Hyperlanes?
When discussing this, we essentially boiled down the consolidation into three possibilities: Hyperlanes only, Warp-only, and Warp+Hyperlanes. Wormhole is simply too different a FTL type to ever really work with the others, and not intuitive enough to work as the sole starting FTL for everyone playing the game. Keeping both Warp and Hyperlanes would be an improvement, but would still keep many of the issues we currently have in regards to user experience and fleet coordination. Warp-only was considered as an alternative, but ultimately Hyperlanes won out because of the possibilities it opens up for galactic geography, static defenses and enhancements to exploration.

Here are the some of the possibilities that consolidation of FTL into Hyperlanes creates for Stellaris:
  • Unified distance, sensor and border systems that make sense for everyone (for example, cost of claiming a system not being based on euclidean distance but rather the actual distance for ships to travel there)
  • Galactic 'geography', systems that are strategically and tactically important due to location and 'terrain' (more on this below) rather than just resources
  • More possibilities for galaxy generation and exploration (for example, entire regions of space accessible only through a wormhole or a single guarded hyperlane, containing special locations and events to discover)
  • Better performance through caching and unified code (Wormhole FTL in particular is a massive resource hog in the late game)
  • Warfare with a distinct sense of 'theatres', advancing/retreating fronts and border skirmishes (more on this in future dev diaries)
Are all new forms of FTL free patch content?
Yes. Naturally we're not going to charge for any form of content meant to replace the loss of old FTL types.

Hyperlane and Sublight Travel
As mentioned, in the Cherryh update. all empires will now start the game with Hyperlanes as their only mode of FTL. By default, hyperlane generation is going to be changed to create more 'islands' and 'choke points', to make for more interesting galactic geography. However, as we know some players do not enjoy the idea of constricted space, we are going to add a slider that controls the general frequency and connectivity of hyperlanes. Turning this up will create a more connected galaxy and make it harder to protect all your systems with static defenses, for players who prefer something closer to the current game's Warp-style movement.

Sublight travel is also being changed somewhat, in the sense that you need to actually travel to the entry point to a particular hyperlane (the arrow inside a system) to enter it, rather than being able to enter any hyperlane from any point outside's a system's gravity well. This means that fleets will move in a more predictable fashion, and interdictions will frequently happen inside systems instead of nearly always being at the edge of them, in particular allowing for fleets to 'guard' important hyperlane entry/exit points. To compensate for the need to move across systems, sublight travel has been sped up, especially with more advanced forms of thrusters.
2017_11_02_2.png


FTL Sensors
Along with the change to FTL, we are also changing the way sensors work. Instead of simply being a circle radiating an arbitrary distance from a ship, station or planet, each level of sensors can now see a certain distance in FTL connections. For example, a ship with level 1 sensors (Radar) will only give sensor coverage of the same system that it is currently in, while a ship with level 2 (Gravitic) sensors will give sensor coverage of that system and all systems connected to it through a Hyperlane or explored Wormhole (more on that below), a ship with level 3 sensors will be able to see systems connected to those systems, and so on. Sensor coverage can be 'blocked' by certain galactic features (more on that below), which will also block propagation into further connected systems. We are currently discussing the implementation of sensor blockers as a potential Starbase component.
2017_11_02_1.png


Wormholes
While Wormhole as a full-fledged FTL type is gone, Wormholes are not. Instead they have been changed into a natural formation that can be encountered while exploring the galaxy. Wormholes come in pairs, essentially functioning as very long hyperlanes that can potentially take a ship across the entire galaxy near-instantly. Natural Wormholes are unstable, and when first encountered, you will not be able to explore them. To explore a Wormhole, you need the Wormhole Stabilization technology, after which a science ship can be sent to stabilize and chart the Wormhole to find out what lies on the other side. If you're lucky, this may be unclaimed space full of valuable systems, but it could just as well be a Devouring Swarm eager to come over for dinner. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of wormhole pairs in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_4.png


Gateways
Gateways is an advanced form of FTL most closely resembling the Wormhole FTL in the live version of the game. While exploring the galaxy, you can find abandoned Gateways that were once part of a massive, galaxy-spanning network. These Gateways are disabled and unusable, but with the Gateway Reactivation mid-game technology and a hefty investment of minerals, they can be restored to working order. Like Wormholes, Gateways allow for near-instant travel to other Gateways, but the difference is that any activated Gateway can be used to travel to any other activated Gateway, and late-game technology allows for the construction of more Gateways to expand the network. Also unlike Wormholes, which cannot be 'closed', Gateways also have the advantage of allowing any empire controlling the system they're in to control who goes through said Gateway - hostile empires and empires to whom you have closed your borders will not be able to use 'your' Gateways to just appear inside of your systems.

When the first Gateway is re-activated, another random Gateway will also be re-activated along with it, so that there is never a situation where you just have a single active Gateway going nowhere. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of abandoned gateways in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_8.png


Jump Drives
Jump Drives and Psi Jump Drives have been changed, and is now an advanced form of FTL that mixes Hyperdrive with some functionality from the old Warp FTL. They allow for a ship to travel normally and very quickly along hyperlanes, but also come equipped with a tactical 'jump' functionality that allows a fleet to make a point-to-point jump ignoring the normal hyperlane limitations. This is done with a special fleet order where you select a target system for the jump (within a certain pre-defined range, with Psi Jump Drives having longer range than regular Jump Drives), after which the fleet charges up its jump drive and creates a temporary wormhole leading to the system. After the fleet makes its 'jump', the Jump Drive will need to recharge, with a significant cooldown before it can be used again, and also applies a debuff to the fleet that reduces its combat effectiveness while the cooldown is in effect. This allows for fleets with Jump Drives to ignore the usual FTL restrictions and skip straight past enemy fleets and stations, but at the cost of leaving themselves vulnerable and potentially stranded for a time afterwards. This design is highly experimental, and may change during the development of Cherryh, but we wanted Jump Drives to not just be 'Hyperdrive IV' but rather to unlock new tactical and strategic possibilities for warfare.

Galactic Terrain
With the switch to Hyperlanes and the creation of strategically important systems and chokepoints, we've also decided to implement something we had always thought was a really interesting idea, but which made little sense without such chokepoints: Galactic Terrain. Specifically, systems with environmental effects and hazards that have profound tactical and strategic effects on ships and empires. This is still something we are in the middle of testing and prototyping, but so far we have created the following forms of Galactic Terrain:
Nebulas block all sensor coverage originating from other systems, meaning that it's impossible for an empire to see what ships and stations are inside a system in a nebula without having a ship or station stationed there, allowing empires to hide their fleets and set up ambushes.
Pulsars interfere with deflector technology, nullifying all ship and station shields in a system with a Pulsar.
Neutron Stars interfere with navigation and ship systems, significantly slowing down sublight travel in a system with a Neutron Star.
Black Holes interfere with FTL, increasing the time it takes for a fleet to charge its emergency FTL and making it more difficult to ships to individually disengage from combat (more on this in a later dev diary).

The above is just a first iteration, and it's something we're likely to tweak and build on more for both the Cherryh update and other updates beyond it, so stay tuned for more information on this.
2017_11_02_3.png

2017_11_02_5.png


That's all for today! I will finish this dev diary by saying that we do not expect everyone to be happy with these changes, but we truly believe that they are necessary to give Stellaris truly great warfare, and that we think you will find the game better for it once you get a chance to try them. We will be doing a Design Corner feature on today's Extraterrestial Thursday stream, where me and Game Designer Daniel Moregård (grekulf) will be discussing the changes, fielding questions and showing off some gameplay in the internal development build. If you want a look at some of these changes in a live game environment, be sure to tune to the Paradox Interactive twitch channel at 4pm CET.

Next week, we're going to talk about war and peace, including the complete rework of the current wargoal system that was made possible by the changes to FTL and system control discussed in this and last week's dev diary. See you then!
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Fallofthepurple

Colonel
49 Badges
May 30, 2013
955
8.369
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV
Based on the lack of reactors under utilities does this mark a change in how power generation works? Or has this screen always looked like this?

Good catch. The icon for the "Enigmatic Power Core" is used on the top left under core components. Granted if this isnt a placeholder, it looks like the devs might be getting rid of reactor spam or at least the option to do so for civilian ships, where it doesnt grant any benefits.
 

DarkFenX

Second Lieutenant
15 Badges
May 21, 2016
129
34
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
As now our fleets have to travel within solar system quite often, will pathfinding algorithm take into consideration not only quantity and length of FTL' hops', but also amount of time it takes to travel within a system (which in turn depends on fleet speed, system size, entrance/departure points)?
 

long_fella

Major
83 Badges
Sep 19, 2009
641
751
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
I think this makes an awful lot of sense from the perspective of introducing terrain to the galactic map, and that in turn will introduce more strategy in warfare, which is a major bugbear for a lot of us. So all in all I think it's very positive.

One thing I am less certain about is the new sensor "FTL connection distance" constraint. That seems a little arbitrary to me, but I guess the thinking is that this allows more of the geography to impact the map. That though leads on to a conclusion that "geographic features" are linked to systems, and not part of the "background map", which feels odd - a star might be in a nebula for instance. It's not as if a star is flagged with an "in a nebula" tag....... Would I be right in thinking this?

I guess we can all contrive some sort of "oh I'm shooting sensor probes through an FTL connection" type fictional prop in our heads but I think sensor ranges radiating from a point feels much more natural to me.
 

Thetazytron

Recruit
70 Badges
Jun 1, 2015
9
19
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
While I can't say I like the change to hyperlane only, I also have to admit to have never given them a chance, I think i'll play a few hyperlane only games in 1.8 before making my final judgement, everything else has my full support though! unrelated suggestion, can we rename starports? I want to be able to rename starports so have a Gagarin station, Armstrong station etc.
 

tanny

Major
Dec 9, 2016
578
188
Yet another minority player here, so I'm not very happy about being forced to use hyperlanes. That said, if the galaxy can be set up into clique-like clusters of systems with a few hyperlanes connecting them together, I might be okay with this change.

After all, it certainly can make generated galaxies more interesting with regions that can't be accessed until mid/late game. That said, new sensors might not be the best idea...

What I'm really against is all crisis factions (and, presumable, mobile leviathans) having the same restriction to hyperlanes. It makes sense for Contingency and, maybe, (jump-drive version) the extradimensionals, but scourge... They crossed the goddamn Dark Space. Or dragon, which is said to be a creature against the laws of universe. Or wraiths, which are hardlight beings. Let them keep warp! (that said, warp will need to be more restrictive)

Prethoryn just found the way. But they're too exhausted to do that again. It might be a hidden giant hyperlane or wormhole. Or the emergency FTL mechanic. either way they're too exhausted to even go back.
 

Tim_Ward

General
26 Badges
Sep 7, 2015
2.392
6.508
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
@Wiz I fear this will ruin the immersion and diversity of the game. It's like hey look culturally we are all.

That's a bit silly. I don't think the laws of physics, even made up sci-fi physics, are dependant on culture.
 

Lurina

Corporal
40 Badges
Jan 16, 2013
28
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Lead and Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
At the risk of coming across as a grognard, as someone who has played wormhole only games since 1.2, hearing that my favorite FTL method and style of gameplay is going to be completely excised from the game is a bit crap. It was obvious to anyone following where the wind was blowing, but I'd at least assumed it would be in game in some fashion down the tech tree and so moddable. But not even that is happening.

This is terrible. I feel like it's basically been announced that the games expansion cycle is over. Wormhole was something completely unique for these kinds of games, and far more scientific then hyperlanes or even warp. In my book, this brings Stellaris much more towards being a generic 4X space game, for which I already have tons of alternatives.

Unless there's a way to get them back in, I think I'm done.
 

Arnovitz

Captain
37 Badges
May 23, 2016
318
250
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II
Since you must now travel to the arrow in a system to jump, is the FTL cooldown for hyperdrives gone? I hope so, it was always so annoying watching a mass of fleets jump on top of each other in a "battle."
 

NapoleonComple

Never permit evil to prosper
10 Badges
Nov 26, 2011
2.012
17.377
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
I'm also not sure how warp with warp snares complicates things really. Hyperlane is reliable but predictable, warp with possible snares allows for unpredictable paths but with the risk of getting pulled into an unwanted and disadvantageous fight. It would create a very welcome arms race too; I've done a great job fortifying my hyperlane points, but have I set up a good snare point to prevent people from just jumping straight past that? Conversely, what good is my warp snare if the enemy just waltzes steadily through the hyperlanes? I'm not good with wormholes and don't really understand how they work, but Hyperlane and Warp doesn't sound too complicated.

At least you still get warp in the end game.
 

Fishman786

Maharaja
90 Badges
Aug 17, 2009
3.747
2.256
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Island Bound
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I hope I’m wrong, but I feel this will severely curtail tech and strategy diversity for players.
Often removing options means greater strategic diversity. With warp drive and wormholes there is one optimal strategy: move as quickly as possible to the core worlds and occupy them, and one defensive strategy: chase the enemy fleet and defeat it in a massive pitched battle, then jump around the galaxy hunting the remnants. Without wormholes and warp drives you have to deal with the chokepoints and geographical obstacles that hyperlanes provide, which means you can organise a defensive strategy around creating narrow fronts of engagement rather than just holding the core with a massive fleet. Alternatively you could use a wider front to force the enemy to split up along several routes and then defeat them piecemeal using local superiority. Removing the other FTL types also allows more options for FTL inhibition as the dev diary says, making fortification strategies viable as well. Getting rid of the starting FTL 'choice' (not really a strategic choice because it happens outside the game) opens up more real choices.

Tech-wise, in the old system you were locked into one FTL type for the entire game, with an extra one available for the end game. With the new system you can use research and engineering to develop two whole new travel methods, and the end game bonus is even better and more unique.
 

Tim_Ward

General
26 Badges
Sep 7, 2015
2.392
6.508
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
What works as an element of narrative convenience might not work so well in a systematised game.

Very possibly true, but you don't have to copy the concept exactly.
 

kanukki

First Lieutenant
87 Badges
Feb 9, 2007
206
126
www.northspace.com
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
This is the best and most sensible decisions for the future development of the game, and to solve a number of issues that never worked quite right because of having to accommodate multiple FTL types. And it has been clear to all - at least since the development discussion a while ago that this would be the direction. Applause and well done team. :)
 

Iron Spirit

Second Lieutenant
15 Badges
May 28, 2016
147
63
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II
So if I understand it correctly, instead of having to deal with just the enemy doomstack I'm gonna have to deal with an enemy starbase + doomstack. In other words, I'm gonna need a bigger doomstack. Or am I missing something?
 

Rationalsanity

Field Marshal
85 Badges
Mar 18, 2013
2.600
2.826
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • March of the Eagles
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
This should be tolerable....if Galaxy generation is improved. It will kill the game for me if I'm resetting all the time because the lanes stick you behind something impossible to get past.

Here's hoping that the update changes warfare and economics so that coming back from a lost war or unfavorable start is possible without exploits. But I have my doubts.
 

frisket99

Sergeant
56 Badges
May 5, 2015
56
34
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
It might be disappointing, but stellaris wasn't really developed just as a Star Trek simulator. And forcing fleets that are in two separate systems to engage would be much more unrealistic and illogical, they're light years away from each other. Hyperlane chokepoints can easily be explained in lore terms, but I don't think you could justify having fleets fighting each other just because they were roughly nearby.

Besides, how would you define 'within two systems of each other' without hyperlanes? Warp drive distance calculations can get complicated if different empires have different levels of warp tech.

I disagree; the game has always had a strong focus on roleplaying existing space-themed franchises, be it Star Trek, Star Wars, Aliens, Warhammer, etc. This change sacrifices that roleplay-ability for improving combat engagements.

My point is that there are other ways combat engagements could be improved that don't sacrifice people's ability to roleplay as they've been doing since the game launched.
 

Morwys

Lord of Flies
42 Badges
Jul 8, 2010
1.241
752
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Rome Gold
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
Well, that's unfortunate.
I think you might find that the restrictiveness of Hyperlanes feels different when other empires are also bound by those restrictions, and like I said, there will be a slider to increase the number of hyperlanes in the galaxy if you like a more free style of movement.
Yeah, but Stellaris is the only - AFAIK - space grand strategy game without such restrictiveness. SOTS, Endless Space, all of them have exclusively hyperlane-style FTL and Stellaris is a breath of fresh , and unique, air in that respect. With this change, you're removing unique strategical components and depth and stranding the game's strategy in the very sameness that most space strategy games have been for decades. Leaving only a single FTL method is understandable and desirable, but warp is a far more interesting choice than hyperlanes and the 'bubble' system of defense actually sounded much more intersting than a faux geography system, mimicking real world warfare: the interesting part right now is exactly that we don't have 'fronts' and stuff like that, because space warfare shouldn't have - static defenses, from my perspective, are the problem, not the other way around. They don't make sense in a free movement plane like Stellaris, and would be even worse if we had the third plane as well. Static fortifications are a thing of the past in modern warfare and we want to restrict the game to fit them in? A far, far better solution would be to focus on revamping their supportive role to planets and stations - warp inhibitors, shield disablers, planetary shields, repair stations, etc. I see no problem with placing defenses everywhere to prevent enemy fleets from entering your space. You should have to place warp inhibitors all around the perimeter of your empire, coupled with other debuffing/buffing station and keep roaming fleets. The space should be more like the ocean, not like land: there's no static fortresses in naval combat - only awesome mobile ones.
In any case, we'll wait and see, as always. But from my perspective, choosing the most restrictive FTL method is a mistake, one that removes what set Stellaris apart from the rest of the space grand strategy lot and, IMHO, that's a real shame.
 

Eldrake

Second Lieutenant
32 Badges
May 17, 2017
174
1
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
It's sad that Warp and Wormhole is going away, but I fully understand why and respect the dev team's decision. I am sure I will get used to Hyperlane. I can always crank hyperlane frequency up if needed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.