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Stellaris Dev Diary #92: FTL Rework and Galactic Terrain

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary is about Faster than Light travel in the Cherryh update, and it's likely to be a controversial one. When discussing, please remember to keep things civil, and I would kindly ask that you read the entire dev diary before rushing to post, as it's going to cover some of the questions and concerns we expect to see from the playerbase. Also, as posted last week, all of these changes are currently far away, and we cannot give more details on ETAs or the exact nature of the Cherryh update than we already have. Thank you!

FTL Rework
The single biggest design issue we have had to tackle in the Stellaris team since release is the asymmetrical FTL. While it's a cool and interesting idea on paper, the honest truth is that the feature just does not fit well into the game in practice, and blocks numerous improvements on a myriad of other features such as warfare and exploration, as well as solutions to fundamental design problems like the weakness of static defenses. After a lot of debate among the designers, we finally decided that if we were ever going to be able to tackle these issues and turn Stellaris into a game with truly engrossing and interesting warfare, we would have to bite the bullet and take a controversial decision: Consolidating FTL from the current three types down into a primarily hyperlane-based game, with more advanced forms of FTL unlocked through technology.

However, as I have said on the previous occasions when discussing this issue, one thing we would never consider doing is just slashing FTL types from the game without adding in something else to compensate their loss. That is what most of this dev diary is going to be about. However, before continuing with the details on the additions and changes we're making to FTL, I want to cover a couple of the questions I expect will arise from this:

Why are you removing FTL choices instead of building on them?
A lot of people have asked this question when we have brought up consolidating FTL types before, suggesting that problems such as static defenses can be solved by just adding more mechanics to handle each special case. I think the problem with this is best illustrated with defense stations and FTL inhibitors. One of the aims of the Starbase system is to give empires the ability to 'lock down' their borders, building fortresses that enemy fleets cannot simply skip past to strike at their core worlds, instead of having to create static defenses in every single valuable system.

With hyperlanes, this is a pretty simple affair: As hyperlanes create natural choke points, the only thing a hyperlane-stopping FTL inhibitor needs to do is to prevent enemy fleets from leaving the system once they enter it. The fleet can enter, it can retreat (via emergency FTL) and it can bring down the source of the FTL inhibitor (which might be a Starbase or even a planet) to be able to continue. This is quite easy to understand, both in terms of which system you need to defend to lock down your borders, and how it works when you are on the offensive.

Now let's add Warp to the mix. In this case, the single-system FTL inhibitor is useless because Warp fleets can just go over it, so we'll invent another mechanic: A warp interdiction bubble, stretching a certain distance around the system, that pull in any hostile Warp fleets traveling there to the system containing the FTL inhibitor, and force them to battle it or retreat. This is immediately a lot more messy: First of all, this bubble can't possibly affect Hyperlane fleets, because it could potentially pull them dozens of jumps away from their current location. This means that when fortifying your borders, you now need to not just make sure that every important chokepoint is covered, but also that your entire border is covered in warp interdiction bubbles.

But there's more: Add Wormholes as well, and you now have an FTL type where not only the 'bubble' type interdictor doesn't make intuitive sense (because Wormhole fleets make point-to-point jumps rather than traveling over the map) but if said interdictor works to pull Wormhole fleets out of position regardless of what makes intuitive sense, you end up with the same probem as with hyperlanes, where the fleet can get pulled out of range of its wormhole network and end up stranded even if it brings down the defenses. This means you pretty much have to invent a third type of interdiction type for Wormhole on top of what is already an overengineered and hard to understand system.

Finally, add the problem of displaying all these different types of inhibitors and interdictors on the map, in a way that the player can even remotely start to understand, and you end up with nothing short of a complete mess, where it's far better to just have static defenses protecting single valuable systems... and so we come full circle.

This is the fundamental problem that we have been grappling with when it comes to asymmetrical FTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game with real-time gameplay and wars potentially containing a dozen actors, all with their own form of FTL. The complexity collapses into what is for the player just a mess of fleets appearing and disappearing with no discernible logic to them.

Why Hyperlanes?
When discussing this, we essentially boiled down the consolidation into three possibilities: Hyperlanes only, Warp-only, and Warp+Hyperlanes. Wormhole is simply too different a FTL type to ever really work with the others, and not intuitive enough to work as the sole starting FTL for everyone playing the game. Keeping both Warp and Hyperlanes would be an improvement, but would still keep many of the issues we currently have in regards to user experience and fleet coordination. Warp-only was considered as an alternative, but ultimately Hyperlanes won out because of the possibilities it opens up for galactic geography, static defenses and enhancements to exploration.

Here are the some of the possibilities that consolidation of FTL into Hyperlanes creates for Stellaris:
  • Unified distance, sensor and border systems that make sense for everyone (for example, cost of claiming a system not being based on euclidean distance but rather the actual distance for ships to travel there)
  • Galactic 'geography', systems that are strategically and tactically important due to location and 'terrain' (more on this below) rather than just resources
  • More possibilities for galaxy generation and exploration (for example, entire regions of space accessible only through a wormhole or a single guarded hyperlane, containing special locations and events to discover)
  • Better performance through caching and unified code (Wormhole FTL in particular is a massive resource hog in the late game)
  • Warfare with a distinct sense of 'theatres', advancing/retreating fronts and border skirmishes (more on this in future dev diaries)
Are all new forms of FTL free patch content?
Yes. Naturally we're not going to charge for any form of content meant to replace the loss of old FTL types.

Hyperlane and Sublight Travel
As mentioned, in the Cherryh update. all empires will now start the game with Hyperlanes as their only mode of FTL. By default, hyperlane generation is going to be changed to create more 'islands' and 'choke points', to make for more interesting galactic geography. However, as we know some players do not enjoy the idea of constricted space, we are going to add a slider that controls the general frequency and connectivity of hyperlanes. Turning this up will create a more connected galaxy and make it harder to protect all your systems with static defenses, for players who prefer something closer to the current game's Warp-style movement.

Sublight travel is also being changed somewhat, in the sense that you need to actually travel to the entry point to a particular hyperlane (the arrow inside a system) to enter it, rather than being able to enter any hyperlane from any point outside's a system's gravity well. This means that fleets will move in a more predictable fashion, and interdictions will frequently happen inside systems instead of nearly always being at the edge of them, in particular allowing for fleets to 'guard' important hyperlane entry/exit points. To compensate for the need to move across systems, sublight travel has been sped up, especially with more advanced forms of thrusters.
2017_11_02_2.png


FTL Sensors
Along with the change to FTL, we are also changing the way sensors work. Instead of simply being a circle radiating an arbitrary distance from a ship, station or planet, each level of sensors can now see a certain distance in FTL connections. For example, a ship with level 1 sensors (Radar) will only give sensor coverage of the same system that it is currently in, while a ship with level 2 (Gravitic) sensors will give sensor coverage of that system and all systems connected to it through a Hyperlane or explored Wormhole (more on that below), a ship with level 3 sensors will be able to see systems connected to those systems, and so on. Sensor coverage can be 'blocked' by certain galactic features (more on that below), which will also block propagation into further connected systems. We are currently discussing the implementation of sensor blockers as a potential Starbase component.
2017_11_02_1.png


Wormholes
While Wormhole as a full-fledged FTL type is gone, Wormholes are not. Instead they have been changed into a natural formation that can be encountered while exploring the galaxy. Wormholes come in pairs, essentially functioning as very long hyperlanes that can potentially take a ship across the entire galaxy near-instantly. Natural Wormholes are unstable, and when first encountered, you will not be able to explore them. To explore a Wormhole, you need the Wormhole Stabilization technology, after which a science ship can be sent to stabilize and chart the Wormhole to find out what lies on the other side. If you're lucky, this may be unclaimed space full of valuable systems, but it could just as well be a Devouring Swarm eager to come over for dinner. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of wormhole pairs in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_4.png


Gateways
Gateways is an advanced form of FTL most closely resembling the Wormhole FTL in the live version of the game. While exploring the galaxy, you can find abandoned Gateways that were once part of a massive, galaxy-spanning network. These Gateways are disabled and unusable, but with the Gateway Reactivation mid-game technology and a hefty investment of minerals, they can be restored to working order. Like Wormholes, Gateways allow for near-instant travel to other Gateways, but the difference is that any activated Gateway can be used to travel to any other activated Gateway, and late-game technology allows for the construction of more Gateways to expand the network. Also unlike Wormholes, which cannot be 'closed', Gateways also have the advantage of allowing any empire controlling the system they're in to control who goes through said Gateway - hostile empires and empires to whom you have closed your borders will not be able to use 'your' Gateways to just appear inside of your systems.

When the first Gateway is re-activated, another random Gateway will also be re-activated along with it, so that there is never a situation where you just have a single active Gateway going nowhere. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of abandoned gateways in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_8.png


Jump Drives
Jump Drives and Psi Jump Drives have been changed, and is now an advanced form of FTL that mixes Hyperdrive with some functionality from the old Warp FTL. They allow for a ship to travel normally and very quickly along hyperlanes, but also come equipped with a tactical 'jump' functionality that allows a fleet to make a point-to-point jump ignoring the normal hyperlane limitations. This is done with a special fleet order where you select a target system for the jump (within a certain pre-defined range, with Psi Jump Drives having longer range than regular Jump Drives), after which the fleet charges up its jump drive and creates a temporary wormhole leading to the system. After the fleet makes its 'jump', the Jump Drive will need to recharge, with a significant cooldown before it can be used again, and also applies a debuff to the fleet that reduces its combat effectiveness while the cooldown is in effect. This allows for fleets with Jump Drives to ignore the usual FTL restrictions and skip straight past enemy fleets and stations, but at the cost of leaving themselves vulnerable and potentially stranded for a time afterwards. This design is highly experimental, and may change during the development of Cherryh, but we wanted Jump Drives to not just be 'Hyperdrive IV' but rather to unlock new tactical and strategic possibilities for warfare.

Galactic Terrain
With the switch to Hyperlanes and the creation of strategically important systems and chokepoints, we've also decided to implement something we had always thought was a really interesting idea, but which made little sense without such chokepoints: Galactic Terrain. Specifically, systems with environmental effects and hazards that have profound tactical and strategic effects on ships and empires. This is still something we are in the middle of testing and prototyping, but so far we have created the following forms of Galactic Terrain:
Nebulas block all sensor coverage originating from other systems, meaning that it's impossible for an empire to see what ships and stations are inside a system in a nebula without having a ship or station stationed there, allowing empires to hide their fleets and set up ambushes.
Pulsars interfere with deflector technology, nullifying all ship and station shields in a system with a Pulsar.
Neutron Stars interfere with navigation and ship systems, significantly slowing down sublight travel in a system with a Neutron Star.
Black Holes interfere with FTL, increasing the time it takes for a fleet to charge its emergency FTL and making it more difficult to ships to individually disengage from combat (more on this in a later dev diary).

The above is just a first iteration, and it's something we're likely to tweak and build on more for both the Cherryh update and other updates beyond it, so stay tuned for more information on this.
2017_11_02_3.png

2017_11_02_5.png


That's all for today! I will finish this dev diary by saying that we do not expect everyone to be happy with these changes, but we truly believe that they are necessary to give Stellaris truly great warfare, and that we think you will find the game better for it once you get a chance to try them. We will be doing a Design Corner feature on today's Extraterrestial Thursday stream, where me and Game Designer Daniel Moregård (grekulf) will be discussing the changes, fielding questions and showing off some gameplay in the internal development build. If you want a look at some of these changes in a live game environment, be sure to tune to the Paradox Interactive twitch channel at 4pm CET.

Next week, we're going to talk about war and peace, including the complete rework of the current wargoal system that was made possible by the changes to FTL and system control discussed in this and last week's dev diary. See you then!
 
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pcavalcanti

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I was watching the Orcs vs. Dwarves Episode 6 and I couldn't help but notice that a lot of times Wiz and the guy who replaced him sound condescending. They know what's best for us and we are angry because they're taking away our toys... Many people here proposed solutions for the FTL problems they've described over and over with the same arguments. I wish they would respond to why some of those solutions aren't viable.
 

Army Pea

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I was watching the Orcs vs. Dwarves Episode 6 and I couldn't help but notice that a lot of times Wiz and the guy who replaced him sound condescending. They know what's best for us and we are angry because they're taking away our toys... Many people here proposed solutions for the FTL problems they've described over and over with the same arguments. I wish they would respond to why some of those solutions aren't viable.

They built a system that works for what they want to accomplish now and for the future.

Additionally they started working on this right after Utopia so any “suggestions” would have required yet another massive rework.

You get what you get and you don’t get upset. :)
 

SS Boss

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I really hope Paradox doesn't hear the never-ending cry here and never goes back to the 3-FTL system that failed miserably.

Goes ahead with diplomacy and trade rework and leave the crybabies alone, some of them stuck in 1.9 because warp is this good.
 

Army Pea

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Very helpful, that comment brought so much to the discussion. /s

Anyone knows if in EU I can ask for a refund since the paradox decided to cut core feature a year after release?

Nope.

Because you can always revert back to 1.9 if that makes you happy. :)

You just miss out on future content due to being stubborn.

Your choice pal
 

Ediros

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Nope.

Because you can always revert back to 1.9 if that makes you happy. :)

You just miss out on future content due to being stubborn.

Your choice pal

And I lose: bugfixes, mods (which most update to newest versions, all future content and improvements.

Give me a break, you hyperlane lover. If I wanted to play ground warfare or hyperlanes, I wouldn't have bought stellaris in the first place instead play sots.

I am frankly done with this discussion. Your arguments have been brought before and so as I paying customer I have got right to complain.

Wonder what they will remove next? - minerals? Pops? Colonization? Repetitive tech?

This whole development diary is disgusting since they proved they are willing to cut stuff instead of working around it.
 

Army Pea

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And I lose: bugfixes, mods (which most update to newest versions, all future content and improvements.

Give me a break, you hyperlane lover. If I wanted to play ground warfare or hyperlanes, I wouldn't have bought stellaris in the first place instead play sots.

I am frankly done with this discussion. Your arguments have been brought before and so as I paying customer I have got right to complain.

Wonder what they will remove next? - minerals? Pops? Colonization? Repetitive tech?

This whole development diary is disgusting since they proved they are willing to cut stuff instead of working around it.

We actually agree on 2 very important points that you brought up!

1. You have a right to complain.
2. Your complaint and the discussion is pointless.

We are moving forward friend , with or without you :)
 

Pointyearedgit

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Very helpful, that comment brought so much to the discussion. /s

Anyone knows if in EU I can ask for a refund since the paradox decided to cut core feature a year after release?

Check your EULA that you approved, it’s doubtful.

Consider seeing the changes for yourself. FTL was revamped so we can have a better war and border system and planetkillers. If you want to just be angry, that’s your right, but at least try or watch a game with max density hyperlanes with an open mind before you pass judgement.
 

SS Boss

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You know what, forget it. I am done with Stellaris once 2.0 drops. I am not even gonna try it, because I hate hyperlanes that much

If you love your FTL-type so much, over all the other things Stellaris can offer (especially after 2.0/Apocalypse), you should play some FTL-simulator (or develop one), not a strategy game.

I don't love or hate hyperlanes, is what a hyperlane-only game can offer for Stellaris that makes me feel better with (and approve) the change.
 

Ediros

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If you love your FTL-type so much, over all the other things Stellaris can offer (especially after 2.0/Apocalypse), you should play some FTL-simulator (or develop one), not a strategy game.

I don't love or hate hyperlanes, is what a hyperlane-only game can offer for Stellaris that makes me feel better with (and approve) the change.

You don't get it, Stellaris is already inferior to other space sims.

-It's warfare sucks even with morale and such. It is still doomsttak vs domstack
-Diplomacy is still barebones
-Pacifist playtthrough is dull, etc

I have already post my problems with Stellaris, ftl types is not one of them in my thread - love and hate relationship.

All those dev diaries focus on war, which I prefer to avoid, since it is dull. I won't even find anomalies and such since some other empire blocked their borders.

I care about, immersion, etc. I have never played multiplayer, nor do I intend to.

So basically this a deal breaker.

Also Paradox are greedy as hell. The apocalypse expansion is already inferior to ISB mod, so why should I buy it?

I will find different game, pity, since I enjoyed Stellaris despite it's flaws.
 
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TheDeadlyShoe

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I hate people like you. All of you act the same, you think ftl types are bad, you love hyperlanes and shit on everyone not happy with this decision.

How does removing ftl types help doomstacksd, when you restrict everyone to one ftl type that promotes doomstacking?! Stellaris 2.0 will be grinding down fleets at choke points with fortress in it, without a way around!

Seriously, this solves nothing, you guys are dumb, to say the least. There is no depth in choke points and CK2 is space.

You know what, forget it. I am done with Stellaris once 2.0 drops. I am not even gonna try it, because I hate hyperlanes that much
Freeform ftl promotes doomstacking because you can always go for the throat; i.e., the most important planet(s), the shipyards, etc. Because your most important targets are always vulnerable, the pressure is always to send as many ships as possible to either assault the valuable targets or defend them.
 

Ediros

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Freeform ftl promotes doomstacking because you can always go for the throat; i.e., the most important planet(s), the shipyards, etc. Because your most important targets are always vulnerable, the pressure is always to send as many ships as possible to either assault the valuable targets or defend them.

PAge 74:



"It makes it more strategic"

More strategic than playing cat-and-mouse with fleets, and having geurilla warfare be viable?

It changes the strategy, and in an extremely annoying way.

We already have the choice to set "hyperdrive only" when you start the game. So how is removing the ability to change whether we use that setting or not an improvement? All this does is remove some of my favorite aspects of warfare in this game.

1. No more fluid warfare. Just fortify the chokepoints.

One of my greatest moments of elation and joy in this game was beating an awakened empire that was vastly superior to me, more than twice my fleet power. How'd I do it? By going around his fleet and hitting his home systems, then when his fleet came back, I ran away, then rinse and repeat and try to run from his death-armada the whole time.

This was possible because the map is so open. Because you can jump anywhere and be mobile. Add choke-points, add heavy defenses that can take out an entire attacking armada, and this is no longer possible.

As it is, you have to be fluid - to see where their fleet is, worry about where it's going, where it's jumping to, intercepting them in time before they get somewhere, and playing cat-and-mouse with two very differently-powered fleets is actually really fun, and I love the interplay of the different FTL methods - wormhole stations are a vulnerable to attack, but provide a better FTL method. Hyperlanes are restricted to lanes but also a very good FTL. Warp have fast charge, can warp anywhere, but have a long cooldown, making them a bit slower and easier to intercept.

So, basically, as others have said, good freaking luck beating an empire that's more powerful than yourself when all their chokepoints have more fleet power than your entire navy.

2. Getting boxed in. I'll reply, here;

You can strategize about having limited resources in some systems. You can deal with a lot of stuff. But being trapped in a corner where the only way to get a 3rd planet is to defeat a 10k Old Guard fleet is not something you can strategize around, or fun.

I recall a game where I had these problems on one end. Then on the other, I had a fleet that was my only rally point. Producing ships, they were coming over to it in a steady line - and I was losing a lot of them to space ameabas and ancient mining drones because puny, early-game single corvettes and destroyers decided to happily jump in a system with thousands of fleet power of old mining drones and get wrecked. So ships will need to be a lotsmarter if they're doing this.

But after all this nastiness, I really decided I hate having to jump through every system, and I'd really just rather have my fluid warp and wormholes back.

I always play with wormholes because I like the increased depth of using wormhole stations andthe capabilities and limitations it offers for warfare.



If you like this idea so much, then I really don't see how it's all that different from just starting your game "hyperlanes only". You don't need to remove wormhole and warp to make gateways and such work in the game, though. Those look pretty neat. Doesn't matter if you're using Jump Drives - being able to get across the galaxy in a single jump would be extremely useful and interesting.

Also, just make fortresses stronger if you want defenses to be more viable. And if you want to help the defenders in defensive wars more, then give better bonuses for when you're fighting a defensive war - morale boosts on defensive armies and your ships, "wartime economy" so you could even imagine significant economic bonuses and ship build speed bonuses.



I just don't see any good reason for this. It just restricts lots of types of gameplay and completely removes some really unique and great aspects of the game. I absolutely love how fluid war is at the moment. I'm baffled that so many people hate this. This won't add more decisions and increase strategic depth - it's literally railroading you into less choices. Now instead of choosing where you'll enter his empire to try to avoid (or chase) his fleet, you'll be forced along a few preset paths. And if your counter-argument is "just use the slide to lower the chokepoints" - then you're basically arguing "make it more like warp" - so why not just use warp? And YOU can use the "hyperdrives only" option, like how it currently is? And let us keep the uniqueness and greater diversity of the game?



I paid money for this game. Not Sins of a Stellaris Empire. Not a game with terrain that you have to maneuver around - but one with some vagueterrain (spiral arms) and where warfare is way more fluid, dynamic, and interesting.



Well, that's great for you, but there's a whole lot of people saying they've had it happen, so... But grats on the good luck.
 

AlanC9

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How does removing ftl types help doomstacksd, when you restrict everyone to one ftl type that promotes doomstacking?

Does it? With warp I often can cover the entire border with an enemy with a single fleet, since all the systems are within one jump of a central position. With hyperlanes it depends on the configuration of the lanes.

On offense, it means that I get to pick from a bigger target list, as noted above. But since the enemy can jump to whatever target I pick, splitting my fleet up just invites defeat in detail, so I end up having to doomstack anyway unless I've caught them with their fleets way out of position or I've already got a 2-1 edge in local fleet power.
 

AlanC9

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One of my greatest moments of elation and joy in this game was beating an awakened empire that was vastly superior to me, more than twice my fleet power. How'd I do it? By going around his fleet and hitting his home systems, then when his fleet came back, I ran away, then rinse and repeat and try to run from his death-armada the whole time.

This was possible because the map is so open. Because you can jump anywhere and be mobile. Add choke-points, add heavy defenses that can take out an entire attacking armada, and this is no longer possible.

Also possible because the AI was too stupid to handle the situation. Try that against a human and you'd have been crushed.

That's pretty common in strategy games, actually. Nobody's ever made an AI that can really handle open movement.
 

rexx

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long ass rant post snip.

You were just writing about how you avoid war because it's dull, an then rant about how good war currently is.

An thats great for u. U have 1.9 to play. It's not going anywhere. U clearly love it so love it.

Alot of us. Many many more people than u, dislike it. Vastly. An we don't have the ability to roll the game back to where we do like it because doomstacking is a fundamental problem with the old 3 ftl design that the designers were unable to overcome.

How come u think it's ok to screw all of us, who paid for a living game with the expectation that itd change and grow when shit doesnt work, because u want bug fixes an content that u never paid for and are generally just really ungrateful about.

Your attitude is shit. U don't get to decide what the rest of us get an thank fuck for that.
 

pcavalcanti

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You were just writing about how you avoid war because it's dull, an then rant about how good war currently is.

An thats great for u. U have 1.9 to play. It's not going anywhere. U clearly love it so love it.

Alot of us. Many many more people than u, dislike it. Vastly. An we don't have the ability to roll the game back to where we do like it because doomstacking is a fundamental problem with the old 3 ftl design that the designers were unable to overcome.

How come u think it's ok to screw all of us, who paid for a living game with the expectation that itd change and grow when shit doesnt work, because u want bug fixes an content that u never paid for and are generally just really ungrateful about.

Your attitude is shit. U don't get to decide what the rest of us get an thank fuck for that.

He's just arguing like many other people that it could have been done without removing the 3 FTL. And he makes a great point - if you can have high hyperlane density that undermines the current proposal of chokepoint-based warfare why couldn't they keep warp? There could be different types of tech and/or defense stations that could be designed according to the FTL type of the enemy... I mean, look at the STNH mods and the sheer amount of stuff those guys added to the game, and they're not even paid to do that and it was more valuable than most DLC Paradox has sold.
 

Kappenloch

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Freeform ftl promotes doomstacking because you can always go for the throat; i.e., the most important planet(s), the shipyards, etc. Because your most important targets are always vulnerable, the pressure is always to send as many ships as possible to either assault the valuable targets or defend them.

That simply doesn't happen. In free-movement games like Distant Worlds, you will get annihilated if you have a single doomstack because it simply cant be everywhere at once. You are forced to split up into smaller defensive fleets to cover areas of your empire vulnerable to attack. People on the DW forums NEVER complain about doomstacking like they do here. Why? because although still a possibility, it simply isn't generally an issue for that game.

Doomstacks are possible for any game but Stellairs in particular suffers from it greatly because of its crazy, unpredictable, unstoppable instant teleporting fleets which are unique only to Stellaris and no other free movement game, a problem that has never been acknowledged, detected or addressed by the devs. All three movement types in this game are inherently broken and have always been broken, leading to massive doomstacks and horrible whack-a-mole gameplay worse than any other 4x ever released.

But on the other hand, with hyperlane only FTL, where ELSE but the choke points will you have to put your doomstack? There's no reason to place it anywhere else EXCEPT the choke points, because space-roads make the remainder of your empire completely invulnerable to attack. Defence is just a no-brainer. Not a good thing in a strategy game.
 

AlanC9

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How can a single doom stack occupy choke points? Can't it, by definition, only occupy one?
 

Woozywyvern

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Seriously folks, if you are that frustrated by the decision vote with your wallets - don't buy the expansion, uninstall the game and never look back. If enough people do this then Paradox will realise that have made an error in what they have done.

Endless bitching on the forums will accomplish nothing, as I doubt Paradox even look at these threads anymore. They have made their decision on what they feel is best for the game and their future vision of the game.

Personally, I support them in their decision. They believe they are making decisions to improve the game and I am willing to see what their vision looks like. If I don't enjoy it, I won't play it but it is their game to make these decisions with. If enough people don't agree with them and stop buying Stellaris expansions, then the game will die and I will be sad about that but it is only a game after all.
 

Butlerian

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He's just arguing like many other people that it could have been done without removing the 3 FTL. And he makes a great point - if you can have high hyperlane density that undermines the current proposal of chokepoint-based warfare why couldn't they keep warp?
Answer A: 2.0 isn't really supposed to be played at may hyperlane density. That's there as a sop to try and stop warpholers from crying so much (unsuccessful). So "you can have high hyperlane density" is only true in a technical sense. You can set the map script to max density - but your game will be stupid and unbalanced and it was not designed around this sort of galactic network.
Answer B: Playing on max hyperlane density is still different (and better!) than playing on warp because you can't just leap over an entire front line to the enemy's home system.
On min hyperlane density your only option is A -> B -> Z
On max hyperlane density your options are to go A -> B/C/D/E/F/G -> Z
On warpholes you just go A -> Z
So max hyperlane density still has the "You have to go through intervening systems where you may be ambushed on inclement terrain or locked down by an FTL inhibitor" thing, whereas warpholes doesn't.


There could be different types of tech and/or defense stations that could be designed according to the FTL type of the enemy... I mean, look at the STNH mods and the sheer amount of stuff those guys added to the game, and they're not even paid to do that and it was more valuable than most DLC Paradox has sold.
I know we're 269 pages in so it's a long way to look back, but Wiz literally says "I thought about doing this but it would be a horrible confusing mess" in the OP
 
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