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Stellaris Dev Diary #92: FTL Rework and Galactic Terrain

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary is about Faster than Light travel in the Cherryh update, and it's likely to be a controversial one. When discussing, please remember to keep things civil, and I would kindly ask that you read the entire dev diary before rushing to post, as it's going to cover some of the questions and concerns we expect to see from the playerbase. Also, as posted last week, all of these changes are currently far away, and we cannot give more details on ETAs or the exact nature of the Cherryh update than we already have. Thank you!

FTL Rework
The single biggest design issue we have had to tackle in the Stellaris team since release is the asymmetrical FTL. While it's a cool and interesting idea on paper, the honest truth is that the feature just does not fit well into the game in practice, and blocks numerous improvements on a myriad of other features such as warfare and exploration, as well as solutions to fundamental design problems like the weakness of static defenses. After a lot of debate among the designers, we finally decided that if we were ever going to be able to tackle these issues and turn Stellaris into a game with truly engrossing and interesting warfare, we would have to bite the bullet and take a controversial decision: Consolidating FTL from the current three types down into a primarily hyperlane-based game, with more advanced forms of FTL unlocked through technology.

However, as I have said on the previous occasions when discussing this issue, one thing we would never consider doing is just slashing FTL types from the game without adding in something else to compensate their loss. That is what most of this dev diary is going to be about. However, before continuing with the details on the additions and changes we're making to FTL, I want to cover a couple of the questions I expect will arise from this:

Why are you removing FTL choices instead of building on them?
A lot of people have asked this question when we have brought up consolidating FTL types before, suggesting that problems such as static defenses can be solved by just adding more mechanics to handle each special case. I think the problem with this is best illustrated with defense stations and FTL inhibitors. One of the aims of the Starbase system is to give empires the ability to 'lock down' their borders, building fortresses that enemy fleets cannot simply skip past to strike at their core worlds, instead of having to create static defenses in every single valuable system.

With hyperlanes, this is a pretty simple affair: As hyperlanes create natural choke points, the only thing a hyperlane-stopping FTL inhibitor needs to do is to prevent enemy fleets from leaving the system once they enter it. The fleet can enter, it can retreat (via emergency FTL) and it can bring down the source of the FTL inhibitor (which might be a Starbase or even a planet) to be able to continue. This is quite easy to understand, both in terms of which system you need to defend to lock down your borders, and how it works when you are on the offensive.

Now let's add Warp to the mix. In this case, the single-system FTL inhibitor is useless because Warp fleets can just go over it, so we'll invent another mechanic: A warp interdiction bubble, stretching a certain distance around the system, that pull in any hostile Warp fleets traveling there to the system containing the FTL inhibitor, and force them to battle it or retreat. This is immediately a lot more messy: First of all, this bubble can't possibly affect Hyperlane fleets, because it could potentially pull them dozens of jumps away from their current location. This means that when fortifying your borders, you now need to not just make sure that every important chokepoint is covered, but also that your entire border is covered in warp interdiction bubbles.

But there's more: Add Wormholes as well, and you now have an FTL type where not only the 'bubble' type interdictor doesn't make intuitive sense (because Wormhole fleets make point-to-point jumps rather than traveling over the map) but if said interdictor works to pull Wormhole fleets out of position regardless of what makes intuitive sense, you end up with the same probem as with hyperlanes, where the fleet can get pulled out of range of its wormhole network and end up stranded even if it brings down the defenses. This means you pretty much have to invent a third type of interdiction type for Wormhole on top of what is already an overengineered and hard to understand system.

Finally, add the problem of displaying all these different types of inhibitors and interdictors on the map, in a way that the player can even remotely start to understand, and you end up with nothing short of a complete mess, where it's far better to just have static defenses protecting single valuable systems... and so we come full circle.

This is the fundamental problem that we have been grappling with when it comes to asymmetrical FTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game with real-time gameplay and wars potentially containing a dozen actors, all with their own form of FTL. The complexity collapses into what is for the player just a mess of fleets appearing and disappearing with no discernible logic to them.

Why Hyperlanes?
When discussing this, we essentially boiled down the consolidation into three possibilities: Hyperlanes only, Warp-only, and Warp+Hyperlanes. Wormhole is simply too different a FTL type to ever really work with the others, and not intuitive enough to work as the sole starting FTL for everyone playing the game. Keeping both Warp and Hyperlanes would be an improvement, but would still keep many of the issues we currently have in regards to user experience and fleet coordination. Warp-only was considered as an alternative, but ultimately Hyperlanes won out because of the possibilities it opens up for galactic geography, static defenses and enhancements to exploration.

Here are the some of the possibilities that consolidation of FTL into Hyperlanes creates for Stellaris:
  • Unified distance, sensor and border systems that make sense for everyone (for example, cost of claiming a system not being based on euclidean distance but rather the actual distance for ships to travel there)
  • Galactic 'geography', systems that are strategically and tactically important due to location and 'terrain' (more on this below) rather than just resources
  • More possibilities for galaxy generation and exploration (for example, entire regions of space accessible only through a wormhole or a single guarded hyperlane, containing special locations and events to discover)
  • Better performance through caching and unified code (Wormhole FTL in particular is a massive resource hog in the late game)
  • Warfare with a distinct sense of 'theatres', advancing/retreating fronts and border skirmishes (more on this in future dev diaries)
Are all new forms of FTL free patch content?
Yes. Naturally we're not going to charge for any form of content meant to replace the loss of old FTL types.

Hyperlane and Sublight Travel
As mentioned, in the Cherryh update. all empires will now start the game with Hyperlanes as their only mode of FTL. By default, hyperlane generation is going to be changed to create more 'islands' and 'choke points', to make for more interesting galactic geography. However, as we know some players do not enjoy the idea of constricted space, we are going to add a slider that controls the general frequency and connectivity of hyperlanes. Turning this up will create a more connected galaxy and make it harder to protect all your systems with static defenses, for players who prefer something closer to the current game's Warp-style movement.

Sublight travel is also being changed somewhat, in the sense that you need to actually travel to the entry point to a particular hyperlane (the arrow inside a system) to enter it, rather than being able to enter any hyperlane from any point outside's a system's gravity well. This means that fleets will move in a more predictable fashion, and interdictions will frequently happen inside systems instead of nearly always being at the edge of them, in particular allowing for fleets to 'guard' important hyperlane entry/exit points. To compensate for the need to move across systems, sublight travel has been sped up, especially with more advanced forms of thrusters.
2017_11_02_2.png


FTL Sensors
Along with the change to FTL, we are also changing the way sensors work. Instead of simply being a circle radiating an arbitrary distance from a ship, station or planet, each level of sensors can now see a certain distance in FTL connections. For example, a ship with level 1 sensors (Radar) will only give sensor coverage of the same system that it is currently in, while a ship with level 2 (Gravitic) sensors will give sensor coverage of that system and all systems connected to it through a Hyperlane or explored Wormhole (more on that below), a ship with level 3 sensors will be able to see systems connected to those systems, and so on. Sensor coverage can be 'blocked' by certain galactic features (more on that below), which will also block propagation into further connected systems. We are currently discussing the implementation of sensor blockers as a potential Starbase component.
2017_11_02_1.png


Wormholes
While Wormhole as a full-fledged FTL type is gone, Wormholes are not. Instead they have been changed into a natural formation that can be encountered while exploring the galaxy. Wormholes come in pairs, essentially functioning as very long hyperlanes that can potentially take a ship across the entire galaxy near-instantly. Natural Wormholes are unstable, and when first encountered, you will not be able to explore them. To explore a Wormhole, you need the Wormhole Stabilization technology, after which a science ship can be sent to stabilize and chart the Wormhole to find out what lies on the other side. If you're lucky, this may be unclaimed space full of valuable systems, but it could just as well be a Devouring Swarm eager to come over for dinner. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of wormhole pairs in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_4.png


Gateways
Gateways is an advanced form of FTL most closely resembling the Wormhole FTL in the live version of the game. While exploring the galaxy, you can find abandoned Gateways that were once part of a massive, galaxy-spanning network. These Gateways are disabled and unusable, but with the Gateway Reactivation mid-game technology and a hefty investment of minerals, they can be restored to working order. Like Wormholes, Gateways allow for near-instant travel to other Gateways, but the difference is that any activated Gateway can be used to travel to any other activated Gateway, and late-game technology allows for the construction of more Gateways to expand the network. Also unlike Wormholes, which cannot be 'closed', Gateways also have the advantage of allowing any empire controlling the system they're in to control who goes through said Gateway - hostile empires and empires to whom you have closed your borders will not be able to use 'your' Gateways to just appear inside of your systems.

When the first Gateway is re-activated, another random Gateway will also be re-activated along with it, so that there is never a situation where you just have a single active Gateway going nowhere. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of abandoned gateways in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_8.png


Jump Drives
Jump Drives and Psi Jump Drives have been changed, and is now an advanced form of FTL that mixes Hyperdrive with some functionality from the old Warp FTL. They allow for a ship to travel normally and very quickly along hyperlanes, but also come equipped with a tactical 'jump' functionality that allows a fleet to make a point-to-point jump ignoring the normal hyperlane limitations. This is done with a special fleet order where you select a target system for the jump (within a certain pre-defined range, with Psi Jump Drives having longer range than regular Jump Drives), after which the fleet charges up its jump drive and creates a temporary wormhole leading to the system. After the fleet makes its 'jump', the Jump Drive will need to recharge, with a significant cooldown before it can be used again, and also applies a debuff to the fleet that reduces its combat effectiveness while the cooldown is in effect. This allows for fleets with Jump Drives to ignore the usual FTL restrictions and skip straight past enemy fleets and stations, but at the cost of leaving themselves vulnerable and potentially stranded for a time afterwards. This design is highly experimental, and may change during the development of Cherryh, but we wanted Jump Drives to not just be 'Hyperdrive IV' but rather to unlock new tactical and strategic possibilities for warfare.

Galactic Terrain
With the switch to Hyperlanes and the creation of strategically important systems and chokepoints, we've also decided to implement something we had always thought was a really interesting idea, but which made little sense without such chokepoints: Galactic Terrain. Specifically, systems with environmental effects and hazards that have profound tactical and strategic effects on ships and empires. This is still something we are in the middle of testing and prototyping, but so far we have created the following forms of Galactic Terrain:
Nebulas block all sensor coverage originating from other systems, meaning that it's impossible for an empire to see what ships and stations are inside a system in a nebula without having a ship or station stationed there, allowing empires to hide their fleets and set up ambushes.
Pulsars interfere with deflector technology, nullifying all ship and station shields in a system with a Pulsar.
Neutron Stars interfere with navigation and ship systems, significantly slowing down sublight travel in a system with a Neutron Star.
Black Holes interfere with FTL, increasing the time it takes for a fleet to charge its emergency FTL and making it more difficult to ships to individually disengage from combat (more on this in a later dev diary).

The above is just a first iteration, and it's something we're likely to tweak and build on more for both the Cherryh update and other updates beyond it, so stay tuned for more information on this.
2017_11_02_3.png

2017_11_02_5.png


That's all for today! I will finish this dev diary by saying that we do not expect everyone to be happy with these changes, but we truly believe that they are necessary to give Stellaris truly great warfare, and that we think you will find the game better for it once you get a chance to try them. We will be doing a Design Corner feature on today's Extraterrestial Thursday stream, where me and Game Designer Daniel Moregård (grekulf) will be discussing the changes, fielding questions and showing off some gameplay in the internal development build. If you want a look at some of these changes in a live game environment, be sure to tune to the Paradox Interactive twitch channel at 4pm CET.

Next week, we're going to talk about war and peace, including the complete rework of the current wargoal system that was made possible by the changes to FTL and system control discussed in this and last week's dev diary. See you then!
 
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pcavalcanti

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Eu4 and ck2 have had new dlc allow parts of other dlc. The Silk Road in jade dragon being the latest example. They have an idea what they want to do but they are definitely not all knowing

I didn't mean that AT ALL. Aspec called it as soon as Synthetic Dawn came out, so if a regular youtuber can foresee the problem how couldn't the developers?

Either that or they should have stuck with it... but anyways, it's their stuff, they can do whatever they want with it.
 

Peko?

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Another thing is - from what I remember Wiz wasn't the lead when Stellaris was developed - so he could blame the problem on some other people that messed it up before him, but he then later introduced the ascension paths and also the ascension perks for those who bought the Utopia DLC. Now he himself has acknowledged it was a bad idea and is making some features of that paid DLC free, because later he realized for Synthetic Dawn that people would be forced to buy Utopia to get 100% of what they paid for it(machine worlds) and maybe will pay for future DLC. In a way this is very positive in the sense that they showed they don't want to scam their customers but this lack of forward thinking is scary and it's what is making people lose some faith in the developers and in the changes.
Indeed, people making mistakes, then acknowledging that they made them and acting towards rectifying them. Horrifying.
 

Kappenloch

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Another thing is - from what I remember Wiz wasn't the lead when Stellaris was developed - so he could blame the problem on some other people that messed it up before him

Or from another perspective the original lead Dev had a clear vision of Stellaris as brilliant, flexible sci-fi story-telling game with less emphasis on warfare and Wis is currently in the process of screwing up that entire vision by mangling a fully-mature game into a Frankenstein's monster of a crappy, done-to-death land-warfare game with a space skin slapped on.

Maybe we can get that original lead dev back on board? I think I want to play his vision a lot more than whatever this game is morphing into.
 

Person012345

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And this is what annoys me about the cheerleaders: they have blind faith that mistakes won't be made, while they're cheering on changes deemed necessary by mistakes made previously...

I assume the devs aren't idiots as well. But if they were perfect, there wouldn't be adjustments to make in the first place... so I can't assume they're perfect either; and anything less than perfect can make mistakes. There's a lot on their plate, which makes a lot of room to miss things that are more obvious to those who aren't juggling quite as much. Perhaps our pontificating *is* condescendingly pointing out things they're already aware of and taking measures to address, but perhaps it's bringing their attention to things they did miss while they still have time to catch them.

Thankfully they seem to take things in better stride (at least publically) when we stray into the potentially condescending realm than some of their cheerleaders do...
I'm not even a cheerleader, I've criticised certain things across all their games and I've suggested improvements. What I haven't done is whine and cry about a change before I've had any chance to test it and know what I am on about. When they first talked about these, at the time potential, FTL reworks, my first reaction was negative. I didn't like the idea and to an extent I still don't. But I see where they're coming from and I'm excited to test the changes, because yes, I do have confidence that they aren't doing this change so they can make the game worse. I do have enough faith that if they had tried to do this and it initially seemed like it would do nothing to help anything, they wouldn't have pressed forward. Whilst the initial game was good but with some things that were in dire needof improvement, every update has made the state of the game better, aside from bugs, as far as I can remember. There may have been mis-steps or mistakes, but I don't remember any update making the game worse than the update before it.

I'm not saying there are no legitimate criticisms of this change and I understand people who are just inherently vehemently opposed to the removal of the multi-choice FTL system. My problem is with the doomsayers who are trying to make out like they know that this will have no positive effect on gameplay, that it will ruin everything and do nothing good, when they clearly have no way of knowing this.
 

pcavalcanti

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Indeed, people making mistakes, then acknowledging that they made them and acting towards rectifying them. Horrifying.
You may twist my words if you want. This isn't what I meant. Paradox games require a lot of money and time investment for developers and players, you might want to plan a little better...
 

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I'm not even a cheerleader, I've criticised certain things across all their games and I've suggested improvements. What I haven't done is whine and cry about a change before I've had any chance to test it and know what I am on about. When they first talked about these, at the time potential, FTL reworks, my first reaction was negative. I didn't like the idea and to an extent I still don't. But I see where they're coming from and I'm excited to test the changes, because yes, I do have confidence that they aren't doing this change so they can make the game worse. I do have enough faith that if they had tried to do this and it initially seemed like it would do nothing to help anything, they wouldn't have pressed forward. Whilst the initial game was good but with some things that were in dire needof improvement, every update has made the state of the game better, aside from bugs, as far as I can remember. There may have been mis-steps or mistakes, but I don't remember any update making the game worse than the update before it.

I'm not saying there are no legitimate criticisms of this change and I understand people who are just inherently vehemently opposed to the removal of the multi-choice FTL system. My problem is with the doomsayers who are trying to make out like they know that this will have no positive effect on gameplay, that it will ruin everything and do nothing good, when they clearly have no way of knowing this.
If your problem is with people holding opinions and bleiefs contrary to your own, maybe you should take a step back.
 

Druesling

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What I haven't done is whine and cry about a change before I've had any chance to test it and know what I am on about.

Even if most of the people "crying and whining" here didn't test the actual hyperlane mechanics the devs are implementing right now, we could test the actual hyperlane mechanics that are in the game now. And even if we couldn't test that, we had more than 20 years time to test other hyperlane spacegames. I know that I don't like hyperlanes, testing a different kind of hyperlanes wont change that. They are all the same: gimmicky, restrictive and board gamey in a way I don't want in my space game.
I understand their reasoning, but it's flawed. If your tennis rackets are crap, you don't change the sport to soccer and call it a day, but try to improve the racket.

My problem is with the doomsayers who are trying to make out like they know that this will have no positive effect on gameplay, that it will ruin everything and do nothing good, when they clearly have no way of knowing this.

My problem is more with people that belitte the criticism as "crying and whining" or telling people that they "just need a good proper hyperlaning, and you'll see you'll like it".
The arguments for this reduction in chosable FTLs in this thread is either "Didn't you read the dev diary?" (We did. That's why we're concerned.) or "Try it first you'll like it because it has not only hyperlanes but also longer hyperlanes and a slider for more hyperlanes" (It's still hyperlanes.) or "It's not that much people that don't like the changes" (Even if it may so, the individual people posting that they don't like them don't like them.)
Oh, and not to forget the "This thread is pointless!" every five pages. If you think the topic is pointless, why do you waste your time on it?

What I don't read here that much is hyperlane people explaining why forcing everyone to hyperlane, while they could set their game to all hyperlane already before, is such a intuitive great idea.
 

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I started playing this game recently, and I don't know much about this genre, but giving all the fuzz I decided to give my humble opinion.

I choose this game, not being really a fan of the X4 games (I find them somewhat tedious and not very entertaining) because I like space fiction.
This game offers everything you could need to be the true emperor of a space civilization. So many races, planets, options... I could say I am mostly a roleplayer.

I feel the proposed changes could affect the 'feeling' of a vast unlimited space race for conquest: Where there are not many rules, and things are unexpected and unbalanced.

The concepts the devs are proposing are absolutely contradictory.
Space geography.
Galaxy terrain.

This is a space game.
And every aspect of the game should be resolved having this concept as the most important thing. Thinking and developing for a space game.
 
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Furiia

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Its been over two weeks and I still don't understand why they are destroying this game like that :(
Sorry if I'm asking the same thing as someone else but this tread has over 5000 messages....

Will it be possible to recreate the methods of travel with warp and wormholes with mods or are they going to completely cut off any possibility of modding that?
Until such mod will be created I'm going to lock the game to 1.8 version. :(

P.S.: on Steam page they have "Deep & Varied Exploration." as one of Main Features they should change this because it looks like false advertising, now.
 

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Hello devs,

I really hope you took your time to read and think what your customers have to say.
I think you already know what I wrote below but I am going to spend some of my limited time on earth to write it just to be sure.

This time it is going to be about starbases and outposts (based on your dev diary and several of my ideas – you can find them here, and I really suggest anyone to read it first to better understand what is below: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?posts/23526942/)

In my opinion starbases should be build around Points of interest, as many before me stated (e.g. system with several habitable planets, some special system with a lot or resources/unique property/rare resources and maybe even in systems that are chokepoints.)
I will use in this idea all concepts I previously tried to bring into your attention:
  • hyperlanes can be extended to make warp and old wormholes work almost like as in 1.8
  • supply lines can be used to bring warfare to its heights and domstacks to its knees
All is possible, some minor quirks have to be worked out. But in the end all of us will get a BETTER game, with 3FTLs, better warfare and I hope better AI.

First let’s talk about starbases and supplies.
Empire controls its space by building outposts and sometimes even starbases. I propose that each starbase work like supply provider producing daily some amount of supplies which are delivered to fleets in range. Fleet would accumulate supplies to some value and consume supplies with some speed (daily).
This way when a fleet is bigger, or there are several fleets in nearby space supplies are consumed faster than they are provided (bye bye doomstacks...) . With hyperlanes, delivering supplies is easy. Lets say that starbase can deliver supplies with range of 3 hyperlanes. So if a fleet is in range of 3 jumps it gets supplies. (a fleet can get supplies form many starbases in range, if several fleets are in range of the same starbase the supply amount is divided to them proportionally. Supplies can be delivered only when fleet is in star system, so when moving through hyperlane it uses its own stored supplies. When fleet has no supplies left it start to receive penalties, but the counter is still on. With each level of lack of supplies penalties are more severe. When a fleet finally reaches the supply lines it is not zeroed automatically – fleet has to wait and get those supplies and each penalty is taken off step by step.
The further the supply have to reach it amount is decreased by 0,2 (it could be tied to galaxy map size) from base amount, so when at 3 range it is only 0.4 left . Then comes our outposts which when on the road of our supply line makes that supply is not lost. So if supply is delivered through controlled space it is not lost during travel. Another rule would be that supply line cannot go through enemy controlled space (so it will have to search for path around)

This leads us to an idea of fast conquering outposts that are easier to capture than starbases. This way one empire can try to destroy supply lines of enemy and make enemy fleet suffer from supply deficit.
Starbases have levels so let’s use it in our new mechanic – each level extends the range of supply line, there can exist special starbase modules which do that even further, or decrease the amount lost in neutral territory. You can build starbases inside your territory for protection or on borders to have some supplies delivered when at offensive war.
Let’s use starbase levels even more but this time to automatically regain control of outposts in closest proximity during war (lets say 1-3 jumps away based on ftl type and starbase level). Enemy can capture our outpost. It is under his control but it is not his permanently – war is still on. So this captured outpost after some time is rebuild and it starts to provide supply line boost to the enemy fleet (if some supply line can reach that star). After outpost is captured a counter starts to run. Counter is based on power of the nearby original owner Starbase minus enemy fleet presence in that system. If it is negative number(after enemy fleet leaves the system) it starts to decrease a counter from fixed amount to zero – it takes some time. When it reaches zero the outpost is again under the control of original player (end of war makes this counter stop) .
This way supply lines are automatically rebuild and aggressor has to spend more effort to control captured area, and what is most important deal with this starbase which constantly regains captured outposts cutting access to his supplies. This way starbase wherever it is, becomes a Point of interest! Enemy can't just go around it and go deeper into enemy bcs of supply ilines. It doesn’t have to be in hyperlane chokepoint, it has to be somewhere where a player can defend and give some aid to his fleet/outposts (like castle and controlled surrounding land). And if it happens that the starbase is build on chokepoint it is even better POI. So chokepoints are not that important in a light of supply lines.

Now supply lines in a light of 3 different FTLs that are based on different hyperlane maps.
  • Hyperlane – it was presented above
  • Warp – depending on the level of warp, player have access to warp1 hyperlanes, warp2 hyp, or warp3 hyp (it should be based on warp engines).Whenever this player research new warp engine new warp-hyperlanes can be accessed by his ships (after refit). So supply lines would work on those warp-hyperlane network the same as pure hyperlanes. I would add some modifier though bcs warp-hyperlane has more connections that with each new drive are longer so I would limit supply lines range of starbases for warp empire by 1 and give bigger attrition when supply line goes through neutral space.
  • Old Wormholes – this worm-hyperlane network is build around wormhole stations connecting all stars within range to wormhole station. New better wormhole stations increase the range so this worm2-hyperlanes are added. Supply lines for wormhole stations should work as base hyperlane. Supply is provided to all stars within range of wormhole station. And supply lost on neutral space is 50% or maybe even 75%.

How to incorporate “space terrain” into supply lines – supplies can be totally lost in that area, or supply line cannot go through that star, fleet supply amount is used up quicker. Starbase produce more supplies etc.

AI – how it will work when faced with 3 FTL ? I assume the same like with hyperlane only FTL. All you have to teach AI is to know what FTL its enemy has and what level it has. Then plan according to that knowledge. In addition use advantages of its own FTL (know that you are faster, he can reach you only through 2 stars but you can reach his 5 stars etc. I also propose to use some of other suggestions I had concerning AI : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?posts/23497905/

Ok, this is all, no more ideas from me. I really hope you know this and plan for this. And if not I wish you consider it for a while. You still have time to make this game great.
 
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Princess Stabbity

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All is possible, some minor quirks have to be worked out. But in the end all of us will get a BETTER game, with 3FTLs, better warfare and I hope better AI.
I think that's actually a contradiction. AI tends to perform better in games with predictable rules. 3 FTLs make movement and warfare anything but predictable. And stacking even more mechanics on top of them just to justify their existence adds even more pitfalls for the AI to blindly derp into.
 

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So, I've just been playing a bit of Endless Space 2 in the free weekend. And guess what? Hyperlanes. Every space 4x has them. Stellaris was the only one with real spacy feeling FTLs; warp and wormholes. Just axe hyperlanes and spend your time on making the other two FTLs more fun.
 

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I think that's actually a contradiction. AI tends to perform better in games with predictable rules. 3 FTLs make movement and warfare anything but predictable. And stacking even more mechanics on top of them just to justify their existence adds even more pitfalls for the AI to blindly derp into.
We would only recieve a more predictable AI, per this line of thought a perfect AI would be one attainable to a scaled diwn gsme that in the end would ressemble Go, a game where the AI now is good enough to beat any human. But a good game is not attained by scaling diwn and snipping off until only the bare bones remain, for what is next to go then? Ethics? Buildings? Ship classes?
We should not ask for a dumbed diwn game to give a stupid AI a level playingfield, we should ask fir better AI!
 

Tsu Chi

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I think that's actually a contradiction. AI tends to perform better in games with predictable rules. 3 FTLs make movement and warfare anything but predictable. And stacking even more mechanics on top of them just to justify their existence adds even more pitfalls for the AI to blindly derp into.

The Idea presented in my post make a little harder for developers to predict enemy goals but a lot easier than currently. In addition all AI have to take into account is enemy ftl and his hyperlane map.
But most important thing is not guessing where enemy will be but knowing where he should be to achieve something. And POIs are those places. It is not that much important if enemy reaches this poi by hyperlane warp or wormhole. More important is that he has to be there to achieve sth. Please read part on starbases and their influence on outposts during war. It should give you an idea what real chokepoints should be.
 

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While wormholes were interesting and warp was nice and simple, I found myself gravitating towards hyperlanes (and eventually hyperlane-only games) very soon after launch.

The game just gets a whole new tactical layer when people cant just go everywhere, and systems get extra strategical value on top of what they contain in planets/resources. I've fought many a war simply for hyperlane access.
Also this will remove the massive headache that was wormhole AIs setting up colonies *everywhere* - and forcing you to play a mind-numbing whack-a-mole whenever you went to war with them.

So other than being slightly sad about loosing the novelty of asymetrical FTL, I welcome these changes.
 

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While wormholes were interesting and warp was nice and simple, I found myself gravitating towards hyperlanes (and eventually hyperlane-only games) very soon after launch.

The game just gets a whole new tactical layer when people cant just go everywhere, and systems get extra strategical value on top of what they contain in planets/resources. I've fought many a war simply for hyperlane access.
Also this will remove the massive headache that was wormhole AIs setting up colonies *everywhere* - and forcing you to play a mind-numbing whack-a-mole whenever you went to war with them.

So other than being slightly sad about loosing the novelty of asymetrical FTL, I welcome these changes.
By no means do I want to deny you your style of play, this was one of the selling points of Stellaris, that you could choose your own style of play. But a hyper lane only game is not what we paid for, nor a game that many want and even less will support. I on the contrary think that hyperlanes only removes layers of strategy that we enjoy, the sense of real space strategy with unlimited boundaries, a simmulatory close to that of what real space warfare might look and feel like.
Now by all means, if you like the hyper lane style of game all the best to you, but paradox should not let this come on n the expense of all of us that don’t want this kind of game and went into it expecting three types of ftl.
 

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By no means do I want to deny you your style of play, this was one of the selling points of Stellaris, that you could choose your own style of play. But a hyper lane only game is not what we paid for, nor a game that many want and even less will support. I on the contrary think that hyperlanes only removes layers of strategy that we enjoy, the sense of real space strategy with unlimited boundaries, a simmulatory close to that of what real space warfare might look and feel like.
Now by all means, if you like the hyper lane style of game all the best to you, but paradox should not let this come on n the expense of all of us that don’t want this kind of game and went into it expecting three types of ftl.
Heh, I take it that almost 3 weeks after the initial post only those bitter about the changes still hang out here. But I would be careful about using terms like "what *we* paid for" and "not a game that many want and even less will support" when it takes only a quick glance at the OP (supported by ~1000 vs 300, or in other words, 70% of players) to see that you are wrong :p

The realism argument also doesn't hold any water. From what we know so far, the only "realistic" FTL is no FTL at all.
 

Obak

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  • Europa Universalis III Complete
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Heh, I take it that almost 3 weeks after the initial post only those bitter about the changes still hang out here. But I would be careful about using terms like "what *we* paid for" and "not a game that many want and even less will support" when it takes only a quick glance at the OP (supported by ~1000 vs 300, or in other words, 70% of players) to see that you are wrong :p

The realism argument also doesn't hold any water. From what we know so far, the only "realistic" FTL is no FTL at all.
1: A loss of 30% support would affect any franchise, it is not a negligible number.
What if your boss axed 30% if your salary? This is not a representative democracy where 51% of the votes is all you need, piss off those 30% enough and they will vote with their wallets.

2: no, ftl is theoretically possible, as iterated before, both as warp and wormholes, however hyperlanes hold no basis in reality.

3: are you just here to gloat then?
 
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