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Stellaris Dev Diary #92: FTL Rework and Galactic Terrain

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary is about Faster than Light travel in the Cherryh update, and it's likely to be a controversial one. When discussing, please remember to keep things civil, and I would kindly ask that you read the entire dev diary before rushing to post, as it's going to cover some of the questions and concerns we expect to see from the playerbase. Also, as posted last week, all of these changes are currently far away, and we cannot give more details on ETAs or the exact nature of the Cherryh update than we already have. Thank you!

FTL Rework
The single biggest design issue we have had to tackle in the Stellaris team since release is the asymmetrical FTL. While it's a cool and interesting idea on paper, the honest truth is that the feature just does not fit well into the game in practice, and blocks numerous improvements on a myriad of other features such as warfare and exploration, as well as solutions to fundamental design problems like the weakness of static defenses. After a lot of debate among the designers, we finally decided that if we were ever going to be able to tackle these issues and turn Stellaris into a game with truly engrossing and interesting warfare, we would have to bite the bullet and take a controversial decision: Consolidating FTL from the current three types down into a primarily hyperlane-based game, with more advanced forms of FTL unlocked through technology.

However, as I have said on the previous occasions when discussing this issue, one thing we would never consider doing is just slashing FTL types from the game without adding in something else to compensate their loss. That is what most of this dev diary is going to be about. However, before continuing with the details on the additions and changes we're making to FTL, I want to cover a couple of the questions I expect will arise from this:

Why are you removing FTL choices instead of building on them?
A lot of people have asked this question when we have brought up consolidating FTL types before, suggesting that problems such as static defenses can be solved by just adding more mechanics to handle each special case. I think the problem with this is best illustrated with defense stations and FTL inhibitors. One of the aims of the Starbase system is to give empires the ability to 'lock down' their borders, building fortresses that enemy fleets cannot simply skip past to strike at their core worlds, instead of having to create static defenses in every single valuable system.

With hyperlanes, this is a pretty simple affair: As hyperlanes create natural choke points, the only thing a hyperlane-stopping FTL inhibitor needs to do is to prevent enemy fleets from leaving the system once they enter it. The fleet can enter, it can retreat (via emergency FTL) and it can bring down the source of the FTL inhibitor (which might be a Starbase or even a planet) to be able to continue. This is quite easy to understand, both in terms of which system you need to defend to lock down your borders, and how it works when you are on the offensive.

Now let's add Warp to the mix. In this case, the single-system FTL inhibitor is useless because Warp fleets can just go over it, so we'll invent another mechanic: A warp interdiction bubble, stretching a certain distance around the system, that pull in any hostile Warp fleets traveling there to the system containing the FTL inhibitor, and force them to battle it or retreat. This is immediately a lot more messy: First of all, this bubble can't possibly affect Hyperlane fleets, because it could potentially pull them dozens of jumps away from their current location. This means that when fortifying your borders, you now need to not just make sure that every important chokepoint is covered, but also that your entire border is covered in warp interdiction bubbles.

But there's more: Add Wormholes as well, and you now have an FTL type where not only the 'bubble' type interdictor doesn't make intuitive sense (because Wormhole fleets make point-to-point jumps rather than traveling over the map) but if said interdictor works to pull Wormhole fleets out of position regardless of what makes intuitive sense, you end up with the same probem as with hyperlanes, where the fleet can get pulled out of range of its wormhole network and end up stranded even if it brings down the defenses. This means you pretty much have to invent a third type of interdiction type for Wormhole on top of what is already an overengineered and hard to understand system.

Finally, add the problem of displaying all these different types of inhibitors and interdictors on the map, in a way that the player can even remotely start to understand, and you end up with nothing short of a complete mess, where it's far better to just have static defenses protecting single valuable systems... and so we come full circle.

This is the fundamental problem that we have been grappling with when it comes to asymmetrical FTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game with real-time gameplay and wars potentially containing a dozen actors, all with their own form of FTL. The complexity collapses into what is for the player just a mess of fleets appearing and disappearing with no discernible logic to them.

Why Hyperlanes?
When discussing this, we essentially boiled down the consolidation into three possibilities: Hyperlanes only, Warp-only, and Warp+Hyperlanes. Wormhole is simply too different a FTL type to ever really work with the others, and not intuitive enough to work as the sole starting FTL for everyone playing the game. Keeping both Warp and Hyperlanes would be an improvement, but would still keep many of the issues we currently have in regards to user experience and fleet coordination. Warp-only was considered as an alternative, but ultimately Hyperlanes won out because of the possibilities it opens up for galactic geography, static defenses and enhancements to exploration.

Here are the some of the possibilities that consolidation of FTL into Hyperlanes creates for Stellaris:
  • Unified distance, sensor and border systems that make sense for everyone (for example, cost of claiming a system not being based on euclidean distance but rather the actual distance for ships to travel there)
  • Galactic 'geography', systems that are strategically and tactically important due to location and 'terrain' (more on this below) rather than just resources
  • More possibilities for galaxy generation and exploration (for example, entire regions of space accessible only through a wormhole or a single guarded hyperlane, containing special locations and events to discover)
  • Better performance through caching and unified code (Wormhole FTL in particular is a massive resource hog in the late game)
  • Warfare with a distinct sense of 'theatres', advancing/retreating fronts and border skirmishes (more on this in future dev diaries)
Are all new forms of FTL free patch content?
Yes. Naturally we're not going to charge for any form of content meant to replace the loss of old FTL types.

Hyperlane and Sublight Travel
As mentioned, in the Cherryh update. all empires will now start the game with Hyperlanes as their only mode of FTL. By default, hyperlane generation is going to be changed to create more 'islands' and 'choke points', to make for more interesting galactic geography. However, as we know some players do not enjoy the idea of constricted space, we are going to add a slider that controls the general frequency and connectivity of hyperlanes. Turning this up will create a more connected galaxy and make it harder to protect all your systems with static defenses, for players who prefer something closer to the current game's Warp-style movement.

Sublight travel is also being changed somewhat, in the sense that you need to actually travel to the entry point to a particular hyperlane (the arrow inside a system) to enter it, rather than being able to enter any hyperlane from any point outside's a system's gravity well. This means that fleets will move in a more predictable fashion, and interdictions will frequently happen inside systems instead of nearly always being at the edge of them, in particular allowing for fleets to 'guard' important hyperlane entry/exit points. To compensate for the need to move across systems, sublight travel has been sped up, especially with more advanced forms of thrusters.
2017_11_02_2.png


FTL Sensors
Along with the change to FTL, we are also changing the way sensors work. Instead of simply being a circle radiating an arbitrary distance from a ship, station or planet, each level of sensors can now see a certain distance in FTL connections. For example, a ship with level 1 sensors (Radar) will only give sensor coverage of the same system that it is currently in, while a ship with level 2 (Gravitic) sensors will give sensor coverage of that system and all systems connected to it through a Hyperlane or explored Wormhole (more on that below), a ship with level 3 sensors will be able to see systems connected to those systems, and so on. Sensor coverage can be 'blocked' by certain galactic features (more on that below), which will also block propagation into further connected systems. We are currently discussing the implementation of sensor blockers as a potential Starbase component.
2017_11_02_1.png


Wormholes
While Wormhole as a full-fledged FTL type is gone, Wormholes are not. Instead they have been changed into a natural formation that can be encountered while exploring the galaxy. Wormholes come in pairs, essentially functioning as very long hyperlanes that can potentially take a ship across the entire galaxy near-instantly. Natural Wormholes are unstable, and when first encountered, you will not be able to explore them. To explore a Wormhole, you need the Wormhole Stabilization technology, after which a science ship can be sent to stabilize and chart the Wormhole to find out what lies on the other side. If you're lucky, this may be unclaimed space full of valuable systems, but it could just as well be a Devouring Swarm eager to come over for dinner. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of wormhole pairs in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_4.png


Gateways
Gateways is an advanced form of FTL most closely resembling the Wormhole FTL in the live version of the game. While exploring the galaxy, you can find abandoned Gateways that were once part of a massive, galaxy-spanning network. These Gateways are disabled and unusable, but with the Gateway Reactivation mid-game technology and a hefty investment of minerals, they can be restored to working order. Like Wormholes, Gateways allow for near-instant travel to other Gateways, but the difference is that any activated Gateway can be used to travel to any other activated Gateway, and late-game technology allows for the construction of more Gateways to expand the network. Also unlike Wormholes, which cannot be 'closed', Gateways also have the advantage of allowing any empire controlling the system they're in to control who goes through said Gateway - hostile empires and empires to whom you have closed your borders will not be able to use 'your' Gateways to just appear inside of your systems.

When the first Gateway is re-activated, another random Gateway will also be re-activated along with it, so that there is never a situation where you just have a single active Gateway going nowhere. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of abandoned gateways in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_8.png


Jump Drives
Jump Drives and Psi Jump Drives have been changed, and is now an advanced form of FTL that mixes Hyperdrive with some functionality from the old Warp FTL. They allow for a ship to travel normally and very quickly along hyperlanes, but also come equipped with a tactical 'jump' functionality that allows a fleet to make a point-to-point jump ignoring the normal hyperlane limitations. This is done with a special fleet order where you select a target system for the jump (within a certain pre-defined range, with Psi Jump Drives having longer range than regular Jump Drives), after which the fleet charges up its jump drive and creates a temporary wormhole leading to the system. After the fleet makes its 'jump', the Jump Drive will need to recharge, with a significant cooldown before it can be used again, and also applies a debuff to the fleet that reduces its combat effectiveness while the cooldown is in effect. This allows for fleets with Jump Drives to ignore the usual FTL restrictions and skip straight past enemy fleets and stations, but at the cost of leaving themselves vulnerable and potentially stranded for a time afterwards. This design is highly experimental, and may change during the development of Cherryh, but we wanted Jump Drives to not just be 'Hyperdrive IV' but rather to unlock new tactical and strategic possibilities for warfare.

Galactic Terrain
With the switch to Hyperlanes and the creation of strategically important systems and chokepoints, we've also decided to implement something we had always thought was a really interesting idea, but which made little sense without such chokepoints: Galactic Terrain. Specifically, systems with environmental effects and hazards that have profound tactical and strategic effects on ships and empires. This is still something we are in the middle of testing and prototyping, but so far we have created the following forms of Galactic Terrain:
Nebulas block all sensor coverage originating from other systems, meaning that it's impossible for an empire to see what ships and stations are inside a system in a nebula without having a ship or station stationed there, allowing empires to hide their fleets and set up ambushes.
Pulsars interfere with deflector technology, nullifying all ship and station shields in a system with a Pulsar.
Neutron Stars interfere with navigation and ship systems, significantly slowing down sublight travel in a system with a Neutron Star.
Black Holes interfere with FTL, increasing the time it takes for a fleet to charge its emergency FTL and making it more difficult to ships to individually disengage from combat (more on this in a later dev diary).

The above is just a first iteration, and it's something we're likely to tweak and build on more for both the Cherryh update and other updates beyond it, so stay tuned for more information on this.
2017_11_02_3.png

2017_11_02_5.png


That's all for today! I will finish this dev diary by saying that we do not expect everyone to be happy with these changes, but we truly believe that they are necessary to give Stellaris truly great warfare, and that we think you will find the game better for it once you get a chance to try them. We will be doing a Design Corner feature on today's Extraterrestial Thursday stream, where me and Game Designer Daniel Moregård (grekulf) will be discussing the changes, fielding questions and showing off some gameplay in the internal development build. If you want a look at some of these changes in a live game environment, be sure to tune to the Paradox Interactive twitch channel at 4pm CET.

Next week, we're going to talk about war and peace, including the complete rework of the current wargoal system that was made possible by the changes to FTL and system control discussed in this and last week's dev diary. See you then!
 
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Obak

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Complaints regarding balancing of three FTL systems make no sense because all you have to do is just turn off the FTL types you feel are poorly balanced. But frankly since ship customization is also being limited I hope they go all the way and scrap missiles and kinetic weapons just to see the hoops people jump through to further justify removal of features to "make da combats better"

And of course regarding FTLs if you wanted to balance them then just treat Warp as "Jump Drive Jr."- the babby form of the reality-tearing FTL. And since Jump Drive Sr. can attract the attention of a billion jillion aliens from other dimensions then why not make it so that Warp drives have a chance of having your little ship warping through space have a chance of being destroyed by those extradimensional invaders- the further you jump, the bigger a chance of it happening.

And as for Wormholes and the whole "you can bypass all the defenses and jump really far so it's bad!" (see my comment regarding fortresses and hyperspace below, I literally don't see how removing wormholes should change anything unless we're literally going to do land combat in space where you're forced to attack a fortress instead of using your ability to move faster than light to just bypass systems with fortresses) why not make it so there's also an energy cost for moving your fleet on top of the maintenance cost- if you jump a doomstack halfway across the galaxy using wormholes then charge 1000 energy to warp the entire thing. And since you're fitting a thousand ships through a teeny tiny gate while not also ramp up the time it takes to get there depending on how far you're going (this is already in game but I'm talking like really ramping the time it takes up hard). Or hell you could just make Wormhole gate tiers into actual differing gates, with tier 3 gates the longest range and highest cost and required to actually wormhole long distances while tier 1 would be cheap and for short distances.

There's a billion easy ways you can limit these things but instead of getting creative the idea is instead to just throw everything out and give out a space mod for EU4.



Except that fortresses themselves are a problem if they impede your hyperlanes since in space you should be able to bypass any fortress using hyperspace anyway.



Except the chokepoints for small empires would work both ways- you can't "seize lots of frontier worlds" easily if there's only one route from your little empire into the neighboring big empire. Effectively this means your ability to attack as a small empire will be slowed and allow the big empire to defend easily. Likewise a big empire can just send their big fleet to attack you at your chokepoint and even if you beat them they've got another fleet to hit you with because they're a big empire (this is assuming that doomstacks will be done away with by forcing you to have a limit on the number of ships you can have in a single fleet).



At this point it's not even so much the FTL changes that annoy me, the fact that apparently the whole "dese features are paid content, dose are free content" divide has been completely breached and they're making it clear to us buying these games at release for specific features is pointless because they can just decide later on to completely change course and remove entire chunks of the game with "don't worry guys this'll be better you'll like it trust us" as their justification.
Truer words have seldom been spoken,
 

ISitOnGnomes

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Except the chokepoints for small empires would work both ways- you can't "seize lots of frontier worlds" easily if there's only one route from your little empire into the neighboring big empire. Effectively this means your ability to attack as a small empire will be slowed and allow the big empire to defend easily. Likewise a big empire can just send their big fleet to attack you at your chokepoint and even if you beat them they've got another fleet to hit you with because they're a big empire (this is assuming that doomstacks will be done away with by forcing you to have a limit on the number of ships you can have in a single fleet).

If the big empire cant build enough fortresses to defend every entrance, while the small one can, then the small one just needs to wait until the big empire is busy fighting another war to move through the undefended space. If the small one also gets a couple friends they could do some serious damage before the big empire can reniforce. Worst case they retreat back behind their defenses to hold out against their enemy. Best case the big empire cedes the hard to defend systems rather than fight in a two front war.

This would only be correct if you neglect diplomacy. Keep friendly with various empires around you and you can essentially block all access to your empire using your allies choke points/ fortresses/ fleets. Your enemies will be forced to fight their way through an entire empire before they reach you rendering their smaller size useless.

Conversely, you could use your allies space to launch raids with impunity as a larger empire... You are always going to have more ships as a larger empire so you just attack from multiple sides and continually wear down the enemy defences.

*edit* you might think this will be more like whack-a-mole instead of whack-a-stack lol.

It isnt always possible to make everyone your friend. Especially more so depending on what/how you are playing. Im sure that having lots of friends will be super helpful, as it has always been.
 
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LeanneKaos

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This isn't entirely true, and the way I was imagining things (Sorry, it's the best I can do until I can see some gameplay.) There would hopefully not be enough starbases to cover all of your choke point needs while also giving you enough shipyards. As you get big you wont be able to defend all directions properly, and you would need to cover any gaps with your fleet. Small empires wouldn't have this problem, and would be better able to strike at a large foe during a moment of weakness to sieze some fromtier worlds.

Obviously all speculative extrapolation before we see it in action, but:

Going off the lanemaps the current algorithm is giving, I can often cordon off a decent chunk of galaxy (ie. based on relative size of the area to the galaxy, slightly more than my 'fair share') with 3 well placed stations. Granted they're changing the lanemap generation, but based on the direction they've said they're aiming for I feel confident in speculating it won't affect this side of things too much. Based on the screenshot we've already seen, current build starts off with a capacity of... 3. This may also change before release (hence 'speculative extrapolation,' but as it stands it means that (after counting my initial starbase) I'll typically either need to find just one boost or be able to eat the costs of going over until I do in order to pull this off. (Could also downgrade my starter station to an outpost to free up capacity, but that seems less than ideal.)

Of course, 'subject to change' applies, but as things stand based on what we have seen it looks within the realm of doable on the 'cover all your chokepoints' front. Which leaves shipyards... but if I've got my borders locked out like that I won't be needing fleet to cover gaps; and consequently won't need as many shipyards (and anchorage) to support them. And as I backfill, I'll pick up more capacity to use for whatever.

So I'm imagining it'll really come down more to economy and the feasibility of forward-settling (to grab the ideal locations) versus 'organic expansion' than station cap. With maybe a little nudge from the RNG gods on mapgen.
 

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Obviously all speculative extrapolation before we see it in action, but:

Going off the lanemaps the current algorithm is giving, I can often cordon off a decent chunk of galaxy (ie. based on relative size of the area to the galaxy, slightly more than my 'fair share') with 3 well placed stations. Granted they're changing the lanemap generation, but based on the direction they've said they're aiming for I feel confident in speculating it won't affect this side of things too much. Based on the screenshot we've already seen, current build starts off with a capacity of... 3. This may also change before release (hence 'speculative extrapolation,' but as it stands it means that (after counting my initial starbase) I'll typically either need to find just one boost or be able to eat the costs of going over until I do in order to pull this off. (Could also downgrade my starter station to an outpost to free up capacity, but that seems less than ideal.)

Of course, 'subject to change' applies, but as things stand based on what we have seen it looks within the realm of doable on the 'cover all your chokepoints' front. Which leaves shipyards... but if I've got my borders locked out like that I won't be needing fleet to cover gaps; and consequently won't need as many shipyards (and anchorage) to support them. And as I backfill, I'll pick up more capacity to use for whatever.

So I'm imagining it'll really come down more to economy and the feasibility of forward-settling (to grab the ideal locations) versus 'organic expansion' than station cap. With maybe a little nudge from the RNG gods on mapgen.

Im sure that eventually, possibly after a few wars, the map will get sorted out into who owns what chokepoints. Just in time for jump drives to throw the entire balance out of whack.
 

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Source? The game, perhaps? Granted, I didn't go digging into the code to find the exact values, it was an estimate based off what I commonly see across a number of games, much like what can see in this screenshot I have on Steam. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1202931410 If you really want to know the distribution odds, maybe someone who loves figuring this stuff out can find it in the code and give more concrete values and odds of what the average non-scripted systems have.
Oh, I see, so you just based it on the current version of the game? Because obviously, if it doesn't work, they'd just keep everything the same. Becuse you're so much smarter than the devs that you can divine exactly how this will impact gameplay without even playing it, whilst they sit there drooling on their keyboards with the new build open not knowing what's going on.

This is why it's BS. You're just doomsaying without having even played the game and just assuming that if something doesn't work, the devs are incapable of adjusting it.

You really fail to grasp why the ability to go around a static defense does not make them useless, and why forcing interaction with them in choke points results in even larger doomstacks. So let me ask you a few questions. Are dams and levies worthless because water can go around them? What happens when a dam or levy holding back water breaks? (remember not all dams or levies over the course of history have had release mechanisms) And what does the water do when it is held back, and can there be any unintended consequences due to it?

There is a reason why both Sun Tzu, and Bruce Lee, have quotes about emulating water. The more obvious link is that Water finds the path of least resistance, and applied to military it means avoid where your enemy is strong. Now go a step further, what does water do when it is blocked? It pools, and deepens until it either overpowers the blockage or finds a way through or around it. Depending on which happens, the results can be catastrophic. The blockage would be synonymous with a chokepoint or fortified location. So, now what do you think your opponents army is doing while trying to find the solution to your choke point? Think McFly, Think. This is where the minor systems en-masse ties in by the way.
What the hell are you talking about. You realise you just ranted about water and armies? This has no relevance to the actual game. Right now, it is possible to simply fortify EVERY system in an area and prevent people going around. But this is also why they haven't been able to make defenses worth a damn. People would just turtle up and be untouchable, system after system of heavy defenses, each one capable of, if not defeating, inflicting significant losses on a fleet. Now defenses will be a more strategic tradeoff, hopefully. If you did this without changing FTL, people would just go around them, at least until your fleet has been dealt with and your undefended systems have all been captured. To make defenses worth a damn, you have to limit their buildability, to limit their buildability you have to limit (note: not remove, most empires won't be surrounded by a few convenient chokepoints, especially larger ones) the ability to simply ignore them.

On the resource front, I highly doubt they are going to make large adjustments to the economy via scale of resources in system especially since they are already removing the ability to have empty systems.

On the Anti-blobbing, you go to far and you end up making Starfort+Fleet unbeatable, which leads to a stalemate when no one can make any progress due to it. Anti-blobbing isn't going to stop the flood, its just going to delay it if you want the game to keep progressing.
You don't know this. This is my problem with you and all the other doomsayers, you don't know this. I assume the devs aren't idiots and will make adjustments as needed to make sure the gameplay gets better, not worse. The changes are all at a very early stage right now, and you have no idea what will change over the course of development.

Again, it's one thing to talk about liking multiple ftl types, that's legitimate, it'sa preference thing, but it'snot really legitimate at this stage to talk about how you know it'll destroy gameplay.

If the big empire cant build enough fortresses to defend every entrance, while the small one can, then the small one just needs to wait until the big empire is busy fighting another war to move through the undefended space. If the small one also gets a couple friends they could do some serious damage before the big empire can reniforce. Worst case they retreat back behind their defenses to hold out against their enemy. Best case the big empire cedes the hard to defend systems rather than fight in a two front war.
Or, if you have a belligerant little turd on your border with only one way in or out that you can't take down for some reason, build a fortress on that one way in or out.
 
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anomanderus

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If the big empire cant build enough fortresses to defend every entrance, while the small one can, then the small one just needs to wait until the big empire is busy fighting another war to move through the undefended space. If the small one also gets a couple friends they could do some serious damage before the big empire can reniforce. Worst case they retreat back behind their defenses to hold out against their enemy. Best case the big empire cedes the hard to defend systems rather than fight in a two front war.

And since those were non-essential systems then once the big empire finishes their war with the other big empire they reorganize their forces and beat down the slightly less small empire which now has more systems to defend, rendering the small empire's efforts pointless.
Oh, I see, so you just based it on the current version of the game? Because obviously, if it doesn't work, they'd just keep everything the same. Becuse you're so much smarter than the devs that you can divine exactly how this will impact gameplay without even playing it, whilst they sit there drooling on their keyboards with the new build open not knowing what's going on.

This is why it's BS. You're just doomsaying without having even played the game and just assuming that if something doesn't work, the devs are incapable of adjusting it.


What the hell are you talking about. You realise you just ranted about water and armies? This has no relevance to the actual game. Right now, it is possible to simply fortify EVERY system in an area and prevent people going around. But this is also why they haven't been able to make defenses worth a damn. People would just turtle up and be untouchable, system after system of heavy defenses, each one capable of, if not defeating, inflicting significant losses on a fleet. Now defenses will be a more strategic tradeoff, hopefully. If you did this without changing FTL, people would just go around them, at least until your fleet has been dealt with and your undefended systems have all been captured. To make defenses worth a damn, you have to limit their buildability, to limit their buildability you have to limit (note: not remove, most empires won't be surrounded by a few convenient chokepoints, especially larger ones) the ability to simply ignore them.


You don't know this. This is my problem with you and all the other doomsayers, you don't know this. I assume the devs aren't idiots and will make adjustments as needed to make sure the gameplay gets better, not worse. The changes are all at a very early stage right now, and you have no idea what will change over the course of development.

Again, it's one thing to talk about liking multiple ftl types, that's legitimate, it'sa preference thing, but it'snot really legitimate at this stage to talk about how you know it'll destroy gameplay.

None of that is how space warfare works. You can have strategy in space without making the entire game into a reskinned EU4.

Or, if you have a belligerant little turd on your border with only one way in or out that you can't take down for some reason, build a fortress on that one way in or out.

Again you don't seem to get it. There are no "borders" in space because space is empty. Your thinking is entirely assuming that planets are just cities on a continent, that isn't how space is supposed to work. Why do people want to play EU4 reskinned to have stars in the background?

And this ignores you could have just turned everything but hyperlanes off in the options. Why do you people pretend this is so difficult?
 

Boygor

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It isnt always possible to make everyone your friend. Especially more so depending on what/how you are playing. Im sure that having lots of friends will be super helpful, as it has always been.

But you don't need to make everyone your friend... Just the empires with access to your choke points....

It's obvious hyperlane strategy 101. Force enemies into utilising a single fortified bottleneck. To be honest it is the only hyperlane strategy....
 

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... Again you don't seem to get it. There are no "borders" in space because space is empty. Your thinking is entirely assuming that planets are just cities on a continent, that isn't how space is supposed to work ...

There's a kernel of truth to this - and I feel it's starting to influence the development of Stellaris. What I'm referring to is the human frame of reference. Clearly, the only design reference anyone on the Stellaris team has is as humans. But this human way of thinking isn't how "space" and "aliens" work. Again, I'll wait until the new update comes out to make a final judgment but I feel like Stellaris is going too ... human. It may not be EU4 reskinned yet but there seem to be some definite similarities between Stellaris and other Paradox games coming in the next patch.

Let me try to explain: Consider that Casus Belli and claims to planets (land) are definite human ideas. They may not be uniquely human, but they do speak to the human idea of manifest destiny, land possession, and/or a use-it-or-lose-it mentality. Why would we assume every other species or culture in the universe would think the same way we do? Maybe there are species in the galaxy for whom ownership is not a principal to be recognized. If these species need - or can use - a resource, they just take it. Food, minerals, other species to work as slaves or whatever. Taking time to "claim" something is not even part of their logic or thought process. Ownership is not acknowledged.

The same goes for space travel and borders. There should be, in Stellaris, migratory or transient cultures - and not just as events. The concept of space is, almost by definition, non-dimensional. We draw a line on a star chart and say, "This space is mine." My point is the alien isn't going to say, "Says who?" but rather the alien doesn't even understand that interpretation of space enough to respond in any way.

At the end of the day, this is a game and we need mechanics. The mechanics that have been described by @Wiz do feel familiar - as if the decision was made to reuse mechanics that have been used before in other Paradox and 4x games. Maybe that's a necessity for a game like Stellaris, but it would be nice to see solutions to some of these issues that are truly creative and haven't been implemented in EU4, CKII, or games like Sins of a Solar Empire.
 

Hawklaser

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This isn't entirely true, and the way I was imagining things (Sorry, it's the best I can do until I can see some gameplay.) There would hopefully not be enough starbases to cover all of your choke point needs while also giving you enough shipyards. As you get big you wont be able to defend all directions properly, and you would need to cover any gaps with your fleet. Small empires wouldn't have this problem, and would be better able to strike at a large foe during a moment of weakness to sieze some fromtier worlds.

I also don't expect that every choke point will be able to be fortified, but between non-agression pacts, FEs, and the new starforts you can have a lot covered with only a handful of forts and supplement with fleet as needed. Also if getting big enough to not be able to cover all sides, your also likely one of the super powers that only another super power or AE/crisis is considered a threat.

Oh, I see, so you just based it on the current version of the game? Because obviously, if it doesn't work, they'd just keep everything the same. Becuse you're so much smarter than the devs that you can divine exactly how this will impact gameplay without even playing it, whilst they sit there drooling on their keyboards with the new build open not knowing what's going on.

This is why it's BS. You're just doomsaying without having even played the game and just assuming that if something doesn't work, the devs are incapable of adjusting it.


What the hell are you talking about. You realise you just ranted about water and armies? This has no relevance to the actual game. Right now, it is possible to simply fortify EVERY system in an area and prevent people going around. But this is also why they haven't been able to make defenses worth a damn. People would just turtle up and be untouchable, system after system of heavy defenses, each one capable of, if not defeating, inflicting significant losses on a fleet. Now defenses will be a more strategic tradeoff, hopefully. If you did this without changing FTL, people would just go around them, at least until your fleet has been dealt with and your undefended systems have all been captured. To make defenses worth a damn, you have to limit their buildability, to limit their buildability you have to limit (note: not remove, most empires won't be surrounded by a few convenient chokepoints, especially larger ones) the ability to simply ignore them.


You don't know this. This is my problem with you and all the other doomsayers, you don't know this. I assume the devs aren't idiots and will make adjustments as needed to make sure the gameplay gets better, not worse. The changes are all at a very early stage right now, and you have no idea what will change over the course of development.

Again, it's one thing to talk about liking multiple ftl types, that's legitimate, it'sa preference thing, but it'snot really legitimate at this stage to talk about how you know it'll destroy gameplay.

Sorry that dont break this up, kind of a pain on mobile. The current game version is a very reliable thing to base things not currently revealed to be undergoing drastic changes on. Yes numbers might change, but not likely to be on a scale that it would unbalance a number of other things.

On the having to play it first to infer potential results, that is a laugh. You can be the one to accept on blind faith that a new proto-type vehicle can defy gravity and drive it off the Grand Canyon. I wouldn't take that on blind faith, and have to be convinced that it actually can do what its claimed to first. Your right that I don't know what all might be changing in the patch, but I do know that what has been revealed so far is unconvincing.

On the rant about water and armies, was total aware was doing, as was intentionally using it to try and better your strategic thinking. Though I do have to make a note to myself to not assume in a discussion on strategy that people know who Sun Tzu is, as you must not of recognized the name. Maybe you will recognize what he is most well known for, "The Art of War". In "The Art of War" he advocates that good commanders emulate Water, and I'll take his word on that over yours, as well as how relevant it may be. Its a really enlightening read if you haven't read it, and highly recommend it to anyone.
 

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Again, it's one thing to talk about liking multiple ftl types, that's legitimate, it'sa preference thing, but it'snot really legitimate at this stage to talk about how you know it'll destroy gameplay.

You ever play another 4x with hyperlanes? Enjoy them? I didn't. MOO3, Master of Orion CTS, Endless Space... The reason I don't enjoy them is hyperlanes. Boring, dull, lifeless, soul-crushing hyperlanes.
I
Hyperlanes are a 4X disease and Stellaris is infected... The prognosis is: gameplay destruction. It's not premature, it's already dead.
 

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Oh, I see, so you just based it on the current version of the game? Because obviously, if it doesn't work, they'd just keep everything the same. Becuse you're so much smarter than the devs that you can divine exactly how this will impact gameplay without even playing it, whilst they sit there drooling on their keyboards with the new build open not knowing what's going on.

This is why it's BS. You're just doomsaying without having even played the game and just assuming that if something doesn't work, the devs are incapable of adjusting it.


What the hell are you talking about. You realise you just ranted about water and armies? This has no relevance to the actual game. Right now, it is possible to simply fortify EVERY system in an area and prevent people going around. But this is also why they haven't been able to make defenses worth a damn. People would just turtle up and be untouchable, system after system of heavy defenses, each one capable of, if not defeating, inflicting significant losses on a fleet. Now defenses will be a more strategic tradeoff, hopefully. If you did this without changing FTL, people would just go around them, at least until your fleet has been dealt with and your undefended systems have all been captured. To make defenses worth a damn, you have to limit their buildability, to limit their buildability you have to limit (note: not remove, most empires won't be surrounded by a few convenient chokepoints, especially larger ones) the ability to simply ignore them.


You don't know this. This is my problem with you and all the other doomsayers, you don't know this. I assume the devs aren't idiots and will make adjustments as needed to make sure the gameplay gets better, not worse. The changes are all at a very early stage right now, and you have no idea what will change over the course of development.

Again, it's one thing to talk about liking multiple ftl types, that's legitimate, it'sa preference thing, but it'snot really legitimate at this stage to talk about how you know it'll destroy gameplay.


Or, if you have a belligerant little turd on your border with only one way in or out that you can't take down for some reason, build a fortress on that one way in or out.
Consider an example then, say your boss, friend or municipal leader would reveal a set of changes of policy, that you “, and many other through 25 years of accumulated empirical knowledge would know be flawed. Would you then stand by like a chump and hold your criticism until after the changes where implemented, and no doubt then be told “sorry, the changes are done, can’t go back now”, or would you do the sane thing and argue your case?
The time to fight this is now, not after the damage have been done.
 

anomanderus

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Or, if you have a belligerant little turd on your border with only one way in or out that you can't take down for some reason, build a fortress on that one way in or out.
You ever play another 4x with hyperlanes? Enjoy them? I didn't. MOO3, Master of Orion CTS, Endless Space... The reason I don't enjoy them is hyperlanes. Boring, dull, lifeless, soul-crushing hyperlanes.
I
Hyperlanes are a 4X disease and Stellaris is infected... The prognosis is: gameplay destruction. It's not premature, it's already dead.

Hyperlanes in Stellaris generally are worse than those other games too. And the proposed changes to fortresses seem to imply you'll be unable to simply use hyperlanes to bypass fortresses- that once you enter a system with a fortress you'll be engaged in siegelike combat as though it was one of those forts in EU4. Which means that hyperlanes won't even be actual hyperlanes but instead more like routes between provinces.
 

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Hyperlanes in Stellaris generally are worse than those other games too. And the proposed changes to fortresses seem to imply you'll be unable to simply use hyperlanes to bypass fortresses- that once you enter a system with a fortress you'll be engaged in siegelike combat as though it was one of those forts in EU4. Which means that hyperlanes won't even be actual hyperlanes but instead more like routes between provinces.
At least in EU4 you would have the option of naval redeployment of troops
 

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But you don't need to make everyone your friend... Just the empires with access to your choke points....

It's obvious hyperlane strategy 101. Force enemies into utilising a single fortified bottleneck. To be honest it is the only hyperlane strategy....

With the new starbase, I really hope we'll be able to do that. I played a couple of hyperlane only games and I realized that my play style was really different. As a wormhole user, I didn't care much about fortification. If I could reach his homeworld, I would do it first as the wargoal is better. When you need to cross several systems, you look at invasion in a different angle.
 

ISitOnGnomes

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I also don't expect that every choke point will be able to be fortified, but between non-agression pacts, FEs, and the new starforts you can have a lot covered with only a handful of forts and supplement with fleet as needed. Also if getting big enough to not be able to cover all sides, your also likely one of the super powers that only another super power or AE/crisis is considered a threat.

The thing is, no one will start as a giant blob. Everyone will be competeing against each other and taking advantage of opportunities as they occur. Eventually some stalemates will occur and mostly set borders will form. Just in time for Jumpdrives, AEs, and crises to throw everything back into chaos.
 

Boygor

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The thing is, no one will start as a giant blob. Everyone will be competeing against each other and taking advantage of opportunities as they occur. Eventually some stalemates will occur and mostly set borders will form. Just in time for Jumpdrives, AEs, and crises to throw everything back into chaos.

So there is no point to hyperlanes except passing folk off?
 

LeanneKaos

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I assume the devs aren't idiots and will make adjustments as needed to make sure the gameplay gets better, not worse.

And this is what annoys me about the cheerleaders: they have blind faith that mistakes won't be made, while they're cheering on changes deemed necessary by mistakes made previously...

I assume the devs aren't idiots as well. But if they were perfect, there wouldn't be adjustments to make in the first place... so I can't assume they're perfect either; and anything less than perfect can make mistakes. There's a lot on their plate, which makes a lot of room to miss things that are more obvious to those who aren't juggling quite as much. Perhaps our pontificating *is* condescendingly pointing out things they're already aware of and taking measures to address, but perhaps it's bringing their attention to things they did miss while they still have time to catch them.

Thankfully they seem to take things in better stride (at least publically) when we stray into the potentially condescending realm than some of their cheerleaders do...

Let me try to explain: Consider that Casus Belli and claims to planets (land) are definite human ideas. They may not be uniquely human, but they do speak to the human idea of manifest destiny, land possession, and/or a use-it-or-lose-it mentality. Why would we assume every other species or culture in the universe would think the same way we do? Maybe there are species in the galaxy for whom ownership is not a principal to be recognized. If these species need - or can use - a resource, they just take it. Food, minerals, other species to work as slaves or whatever. Taking time to "claim" something is not even part of their logic or thought process. Ownership is not acknowledged.

There's actually some accounting for this kind of thing: Devouring Swarms, Determined Exterminators and Fanatical Purifiers ignoring the claim system, which can be interpreted as indicating at least a different notion of ownership. Trouble is there's always some extra baggage to go with it. I tend to imagine the Swarms at least are much as you describe; getting mechanics level representation of that kind of mindset outside the hivemind ethos might require a bit of bending implicit flavortext on the FPs and DEs though.

The thing is, no one will start as a giant blob. Everyone will be competeing against each other and taking advantage of opportunities as they occur. Eventually some stalemates will occur and mostly set borders will form. Just in time for Jumpdrives, AEs, and crises to throw everything back into chaos.

I'm just not as optimistic about the timeframe involved as you seem to be. (Or the future viability of jumpdrives either, tbh.)
 

pcavalcanti

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And this is what annoys me about the cheerleaders: they have blind faith that mistakes won't be made, while they're cheering on changes deemed necessary by mistakes made previously...

I assume the devs aren't idiots as well. But if they were perfect, there wouldn't be adjustments to make in the first place... so I can't assume they're perfect either; and anything less than perfect can make mistakes. There's a lot on their plate, which makes a lot of room to miss things that are more obvious to those who aren't juggling quite as much. Perhaps our pontificating *is* condescendingly pointing out things they're already aware of and taking measures to address, but perhaps it's bringing their attention to things they did miss while they still have time to catch them.

Another thing is - from what I remember Wiz wasn't the lead when Stellaris was developed - so he could blame the problem on some other people that messed it up before him, but he then later introduced the ascension paths and also the ascension perks for those who bought the Utopia DLC. Now he himself has acknowledged it was a bad idea and is making some features of that paid DLC free, because later he realized for Synthetic Dawn that people would be forced to buy Utopia to get 100% of what they paid for it(machine worlds) and maybe will pay for future DLC. In a way this is very positive in the sense that they showed they don't want to scam their customers but this lack of forward thinking is scary and it's what is making people lose some faith in the developers and in the changes.

The changes might turn out good but we know they will come with problems of their own - because that's just natural when you're reconstructing an entire core feature of the game - and then we'll have to wait for patches, DLCs that will fix whatever is going to be broken this time... etc. This all sounds really frustrating, they will have to knock this one out of the park big time...
 

henzington

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Eu4 and ck2 have had new dlc allow parts of other dlc. The Silk Road in jade dragon being the latest example. They have an idea what they want to do but they are definitely not all knowing
 
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