• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Stellaris Dev Diary #92: FTL Rework and Galactic Terrain

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary is about Faster than Light travel in the Cherryh update, and it's likely to be a controversial one. When discussing, please remember to keep things civil, and I would kindly ask that you read the entire dev diary before rushing to post, as it's going to cover some of the questions and concerns we expect to see from the playerbase. Also, as posted last week, all of these changes are currently far away, and we cannot give more details on ETAs or the exact nature of the Cherryh update than we already have. Thank you!

FTL Rework
The single biggest design issue we have had to tackle in the Stellaris team since release is the asymmetrical FTL. While it's a cool and interesting idea on paper, the honest truth is that the feature just does not fit well into the game in practice, and blocks numerous improvements on a myriad of other features such as warfare and exploration, as well as solutions to fundamental design problems like the weakness of static defenses. After a lot of debate among the designers, we finally decided that if we were ever going to be able to tackle these issues and turn Stellaris into a game with truly engrossing and interesting warfare, we would have to bite the bullet and take a controversial decision: Consolidating FTL from the current three types down into a primarily hyperlane-based game, with more advanced forms of FTL unlocked through technology.

However, as I have said on the previous occasions when discussing this issue, one thing we would never consider doing is just slashing FTL types from the game without adding in something else to compensate their loss. That is what most of this dev diary is going to be about. However, before continuing with the details on the additions and changes we're making to FTL, I want to cover a couple of the questions I expect will arise from this:

Why are you removing FTL choices instead of building on them?
A lot of people have asked this question when we have brought up consolidating FTL types before, suggesting that problems such as static defenses can be solved by just adding more mechanics to handle each special case. I think the problem with this is best illustrated with defense stations and FTL inhibitors. One of the aims of the Starbase system is to give empires the ability to 'lock down' their borders, building fortresses that enemy fleets cannot simply skip past to strike at their core worlds, instead of having to create static defenses in every single valuable system.

With hyperlanes, this is a pretty simple affair: As hyperlanes create natural choke points, the only thing a hyperlane-stopping FTL inhibitor needs to do is to prevent enemy fleets from leaving the system once they enter it. The fleet can enter, it can retreat (via emergency FTL) and it can bring down the source of the FTL inhibitor (which might be a Starbase or even a planet) to be able to continue. This is quite easy to understand, both in terms of which system you need to defend to lock down your borders, and how it works when you are on the offensive.

Now let's add Warp to the mix. In this case, the single-system FTL inhibitor is useless because Warp fleets can just go over it, so we'll invent another mechanic: A warp interdiction bubble, stretching a certain distance around the system, that pull in any hostile Warp fleets traveling there to the system containing the FTL inhibitor, and force them to battle it or retreat. This is immediately a lot more messy: First of all, this bubble can't possibly affect Hyperlane fleets, because it could potentially pull them dozens of jumps away from their current location. This means that when fortifying your borders, you now need to not just make sure that every important chokepoint is covered, but also that your entire border is covered in warp interdiction bubbles.

But there's more: Add Wormholes as well, and you now have an FTL type where not only the 'bubble' type interdictor doesn't make intuitive sense (because Wormhole fleets make point-to-point jumps rather than traveling over the map) but if said interdictor works to pull Wormhole fleets out of position regardless of what makes intuitive sense, you end up with the same probem as with hyperlanes, where the fleet can get pulled out of range of its wormhole network and end up stranded even if it brings down the defenses. This means you pretty much have to invent a third type of interdiction type for Wormhole on top of what is already an overengineered and hard to understand system.

Finally, add the problem of displaying all these different types of inhibitors and interdictors on the map, in a way that the player can even remotely start to understand, and you end up with nothing short of a complete mess, where it's far better to just have static defenses protecting single valuable systems... and so we come full circle.

This is the fundamental problem that we have been grappling with when it comes to asymmetrical FTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game with real-time gameplay and wars potentially containing a dozen actors, all with their own form of FTL. The complexity collapses into what is for the player just a mess of fleets appearing and disappearing with no discernible logic to them.

Why Hyperlanes?
When discussing this, we essentially boiled down the consolidation into three possibilities: Hyperlanes only, Warp-only, and Warp+Hyperlanes. Wormhole is simply too different a FTL type to ever really work with the others, and not intuitive enough to work as the sole starting FTL for everyone playing the game. Keeping both Warp and Hyperlanes would be an improvement, but would still keep many of the issues we currently have in regards to user experience and fleet coordination. Warp-only was considered as an alternative, but ultimately Hyperlanes won out because of the possibilities it opens up for galactic geography, static defenses and enhancements to exploration.

Here are the some of the possibilities that consolidation of FTL into Hyperlanes creates for Stellaris:
  • Unified distance, sensor and border systems that make sense for everyone (for example, cost of claiming a system not being based on euclidean distance but rather the actual distance for ships to travel there)
  • Galactic 'geography', systems that are strategically and tactically important due to location and 'terrain' (more on this below) rather than just resources
  • More possibilities for galaxy generation and exploration (for example, entire regions of space accessible only through a wormhole or a single guarded hyperlane, containing special locations and events to discover)
  • Better performance through caching and unified code (Wormhole FTL in particular is a massive resource hog in the late game)
  • Warfare with a distinct sense of 'theatres', advancing/retreating fronts and border skirmishes (more on this in future dev diaries)
Are all new forms of FTL free patch content?
Yes. Naturally we're not going to charge for any form of content meant to replace the loss of old FTL types.

Hyperlane and Sublight Travel
As mentioned, in the Cherryh update. all empires will now start the game with Hyperlanes as their only mode of FTL. By default, hyperlane generation is going to be changed to create more 'islands' and 'choke points', to make for more interesting galactic geography. However, as we know some players do not enjoy the idea of constricted space, we are going to add a slider that controls the general frequency and connectivity of hyperlanes. Turning this up will create a more connected galaxy and make it harder to protect all your systems with static defenses, for players who prefer something closer to the current game's Warp-style movement.

Sublight travel is also being changed somewhat, in the sense that you need to actually travel to the entry point to a particular hyperlane (the arrow inside a system) to enter it, rather than being able to enter any hyperlane from any point outside's a system's gravity well. This means that fleets will move in a more predictable fashion, and interdictions will frequently happen inside systems instead of nearly always being at the edge of them, in particular allowing for fleets to 'guard' important hyperlane entry/exit points. To compensate for the need to move across systems, sublight travel has been sped up, especially with more advanced forms of thrusters.
2017_11_02_2.png


FTL Sensors
Along with the change to FTL, we are also changing the way sensors work. Instead of simply being a circle radiating an arbitrary distance from a ship, station or planet, each level of sensors can now see a certain distance in FTL connections. For example, a ship with level 1 sensors (Radar) will only give sensor coverage of the same system that it is currently in, while a ship with level 2 (Gravitic) sensors will give sensor coverage of that system and all systems connected to it through a Hyperlane or explored Wormhole (more on that below), a ship with level 3 sensors will be able to see systems connected to those systems, and so on. Sensor coverage can be 'blocked' by certain galactic features (more on that below), which will also block propagation into further connected systems. We are currently discussing the implementation of sensor blockers as a potential Starbase component.
2017_11_02_1.png


Wormholes
While Wormhole as a full-fledged FTL type is gone, Wormholes are not. Instead they have been changed into a natural formation that can be encountered while exploring the galaxy. Wormholes come in pairs, essentially functioning as very long hyperlanes that can potentially take a ship across the entire galaxy near-instantly. Natural Wormholes are unstable, and when first encountered, you will not be able to explore them. To explore a Wormhole, you need the Wormhole Stabilization technology, after which a science ship can be sent to stabilize and chart the Wormhole to find out what lies on the other side. If you're lucky, this may be unclaimed space full of valuable systems, but it could just as well be a Devouring Swarm eager to come over for dinner. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of wormhole pairs in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_4.png


Gateways
Gateways is an advanced form of FTL most closely resembling the Wormhole FTL in the live version of the game. While exploring the galaxy, you can find abandoned Gateways that were once part of a massive, galaxy-spanning network. These Gateways are disabled and unusable, but with the Gateway Reactivation mid-game technology and a hefty investment of minerals, they can be restored to working order. Like Wormholes, Gateways allow for near-instant travel to other Gateways, but the difference is that any activated Gateway can be used to travel to any other activated Gateway, and late-game technology allows for the construction of more Gateways to expand the network. Also unlike Wormholes, which cannot be 'closed', Gateways also have the advantage of allowing any empire controlling the system they're in to control who goes through said Gateway - hostile empires and empires to whom you have closed your borders will not be able to use 'your' Gateways to just appear inside of your systems.

When the first Gateway is re-activated, another random Gateway will also be re-activated along with it, so that there is never a situation where you just have a single active Gateway going nowhere. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of abandoned gateways in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_8.png


Jump Drives
Jump Drives and Psi Jump Drives have been changed, and is now an advanced form of FTL that mixes Hyperdrive with some functionality from the old Warp FTL. They allow for a ship to travel normally and very quickly along hyperlanes, but also come equipped with a tactical 'jump' functionality that allows a fleet to make a point-to-point jump ignoring the normal hyperlane limitations. This is done with a special fleet order where you select a target system for the jump (within a certain pre-defined range, with Psi Jump Drives having longer range than regular Jump Drives), after which the fleet charges up its jump drive and creates a temporary wormhole leading to the system. After the fleet makes its 'jump', the Jump Drive will need to recharge, with a significant cooldown before it can be used again, and also applies a debuff to the fleet that reduces its combat effectiveness while the cooldown is in effect. This allows for fleets with Jump Drives to ignore the usual FTL restrictions and skip straight past enemy fleets and stations, but at the cost of leaving themselves vulnerable and potentially stranded for a time afterwards. This design is highly experimental, and may change during the development of Cherryh, but we wanted Jump Drives to not just be 'Hyperdrive IV' but rather to unlock new tactical and strategic possibilities for warfare.

Galactic Terrain
With the switch to Hyperlanes and the creation of strategically important systems and chokepoints, we've also decided to implement something we had always thought was a really interesting idea, but which made little sense without such chokepoints: Galactic Terrain. Specifically, systems with environmental effects and hazards that have profound tactical and strategic effects on ships and empires. This is still something we are in the middle of testing and prototyping, but so far we have created the following forms of Galactic Terrain:
Nebulas block all sensor coverage originating from other systems, meaning that it's impossible for an empire to see what ships and stations are inside a system in a nebula without having a ship or station stationed there, allowing empires to hide their fleets and set up ambushes.
Pulsars interfere with deflector technology, nullifying all ship and station shields in a system with a Pulsar.
Neutron Stars interfere with navigation and ship systems, significantly slowing down sublight travel in a system with a Neutron Star.
Black Holes interfere with FTL, increasing the time it takes for a fleet to charge its emergency FTL and making it more difficult to ships to individually disengage from combat (more on this in a later dev diary).

The above is just a first iteration, and it's something we're likely to tweak and build on more for both the Cherryh update and other updates beyond it, so stay tuned for more information on this.
2017_11_02_3.png

2017_11_02_5.png


That's all for today! I will finish this dev diary by saying that we do not expect everyone to be happy with these changes, but we truly believe that they are necessary to give Stellaris truly great warfare, and that we think you will find the game better for it once you get a chance to try them. We will be doing a Design Corner feature on today's Extraterrestial Thursday stream, where me and Game Designer Daniel Moregård (grekulf) will be discussing the changes, fielding questions and showing off some gameplay in the internal development build. If you want a look at some of these changes in a live game environment, be sure to tune to the Paradox Interactive twitch channel at 4pm CET.

Next week, we're going to talk about war and peace, including the complete rework of the current wargoal system that was made possible by the changes to FTL and system control discussed in this and last week's dev diary. See you then!
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

LeanneKaos

First Lieutenant
24 Badges
May 11, 2016
255
9
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
My friend, for your information, Sins of a Solar Empire is a great game -- it is not an awesome game like Stellaris, but still, it is a great game.

Are you sure Stellaris is an awesome game?

Judging from the posts supporting this set of changes, an outsider could easily get the impression it's actually broken, totally miserable and bordering on unplayable in it's current state :p
 

KaleRaven

First Lieutenant
72 Badges
Nov 10, 2007
286
27
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
So this is interesting. I am a lapsed Stellaris player, so I might have a different perpective in all this.

I think this is a great idea. I can very easily see how having three very different methods made it extremely challenging to implement complex mechanics that are both functional and balanced for all three types. Having multiple FTL methods was an interesting concept, but it ultimately ended up making the game too 'flat': essentially a game of whackamole. I found the space combat aspect of the game lackluster, and it was a big part of the reason I gave up on the game.

I can understand the perspective of current players who are disappointed with the changes, but there is also a large population of former Stellaris players who were disappointed by the current status quo. I am hopeful that these changes will ultimately create more depth and make the game more dynamic.
 

ISitOnGnomes

They know what they did
87 Badges
Mar 30, 2015
530
381
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
Going to take a wait and see to approach to the changes. Potentially it could be fun, having to actually plan empire expansions and wars. For example trying to grab choke points early on to rope off areas I want. Or develop fleets that specialize in fighting at certain types of star systems, because you can't simply bypass it for an easier target.

From what I understand though, jump/psi drives are still in game? So the changes really only impact early/mid game. Or if those techs changed, what did they replace it with? Hard to see psionic losing psi drive without it getting replaced by something.

From the OP:

Jump Drives
Jump Drives and Psi Jump Drives have been changed, and is now an advanced form of FTL that mixes Hyperdrive with some functionality from the old Warp FTL. They allow for a ship to travel normally and very quickly along hyperlanes, but also come equipped with a tactical 'jump' functionality that allows a fleet to make a point-to-point jump ignoring the normal hyperlane limitations. This is done with a special fleet order where you select a target system for the jump (within a certain pre-defined range, with Psi Jump Drives having longer range than regular Jump Drives), after which the fleet charges up its jump drive and creates a temporary wormhole leading to the system. After the fleet makes its 'jump', the Jump Drive will need to recharge, with a significant cooldown before it can be used again, and also applies a debuff to the fleet that reduces its combat effectiveness while the cooldown is in effect. This allows for fleets with Jump Drives to ignore the usual FTL restrictions and skip straight past enemy fleets and stations, but at the cost of leaving themselves vulnerable and potentially stranded for a time afterwards. This design is highly experimental, and may change during the development of Cherryh, but we wanted Jump Drives to not just be 'Hyperdrive IV' but rather to unlock new tactical and strategic possibilities for warfare.
 

Kirinir

Sergeant
42 Badges
Sep 9, 2004
51
22
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
I'm not sure if it's possible, but I'd dearly love to have to survey a system to locate the hyperlanes. Currently I can start a hyperlane game and instantly beeline straight to a couple of choke points. So with not knowing which systems are chokepoints and which ones are dead ends I have the sense of exploration and not being able to "game" what really I think should be an unknown.

In addition I'd love to have different levels of hyperlanes that are only visible at higher tech levels. ex. 3 different levels of HL. The basic ones that any starting race can see and survey. Level 2 ones which are more difficult to locate or perhaps unstable until you get to HL2, same for HL3.

Imagine suddenly reaching HL2 and locating a nice juicy HL which goes 3 planets behind the front lines of your rival..... ooohh or the reverse and suddenly having an enemy fleet behind the lines.

The tweak that I think would be the most difficult would be different size HLs, some that allow vessels up to Destroyer, another up to Cruiser and the 3rd that allows Battleships through. That would make a strike fleet composed of different ships types a reality.
 

Dr. Chaos

Second Lieutenant
49 Badges
May 30, 2016
198
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
I'm not sure if it's possible, but I'd dearly love to have to survey a system to locate the hyperlanes. Currently I can start a hyperlane game and instantly beeline straight to a couple of choke points. So with not knowing which systems are chokepoints and which ones are dead ends I have the sense of exploration and not being able to "game" what really I think should be an unknown.

In addition I'd love to have different levels of hyperlanes that are only visible at higher tech levels. ex. 3 different levels of HL. The basic ones that any starting race can see and survey. Level 2 ones which are more difficult to locate or perhaps unstable until you get to HL2, same for HL3.

Imagine suddenly reaching HL2 and locating a nice juicy HL which goes 3 planets behind the front lines of your rival..... ooohh or the reverse and suddenly having an enemy fleet behind the lines.

The tweak that I think would be the most difficult would be different size HLs, some that allow vessels up to Destroyer, another up to Cruiser and the 3rd that allows Battleships through. That would make a strike fleet composed of different ships types a reality.

Wow, an actual good suggestion in this thread? Go away!

But I really like all of these, especially the unknown lines before exploration.
 

stilgarpl

Field Marshal
94 Badges
Dec 16, 2010
3.530
772
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Cities in Motion
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Ancient Space
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV
In addition I'd love to have different levels of hyperlanes that are only visible at higher tech levels. ex. 3 different levels of HL. The basic ones that any starting race can see and survey. Level 2 ones which are more difficult to locate or perhaps unstable until you get to HL2, same for HL3.
Like hyperlanes and Red Links from Ascendancy.

In that game, with regular hyper engines you could travel through hyperlanes, but when you entered red links, you ship was constantly pushed back. If I remember correctly, this made travel through red links very slow and I think it could even push you back from the point you came from. Your ship could be stuck in the red link for years before emerging on the other side.

In order to travel through red links you needed better (next level) of hyperengines. And the more engines the better.

Stellaris could add those red links in form of unstable hyperlanes. The travel through them would be random - near instant or could take years. Or maybe you could emerge in different part of the galaxy.

So, maybe that red link leads directly to the enemy capital, but are you willing to take that risk?
 

Kappenloch

Second Lieutenant
Nov 14, 2017
160
0
Stellaris could add those red links in form of unstable hyperlanes. The travel through them would be random - near instant or could take years. Or maybe you could emerge in different part of the galaxy.

Here's a crazy thought, we're playing a game set in space, why don't we treat space like space instead of like different gauges of railroad tracks?
 

stilgarpl

Field Marshal
94 Badges
Dec 16, 2010
3.530
772
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Cities in Motion
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Ancient Space
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV
why don't we treat space like space instead of like different gauges of railroad tracks?

And what space should be like? Try playing Kerbal Space Program for example. Even though the space is empty, you'll be flying from one object to another, stuck to your orbits, unable to fly "freely".

Take a look at the paths of Voyagers or Rosetta and their many gravity assists. "It's space, why can't I fly to the Mars directly, IT'S RIGHT THERE!"

There are routes in space that are possible and there are those that are not (even if your exhaust velocity is close to the speed of light, you might not have enough delta-v to reach interstellar targets).

For me, hyperlanes are not some magical tunnel through space (but they could be, if wormholes are real), but possible routes.


I know that ships in Stellaris seem to have infinite delta-v and fuel, but I think that's an abstraction. But, if you can move freely in real space, then what kind of space you are talking about?
 

Obak

Hiiii-aaa hiiii-aa!
62 Badges
Mar 22, 2012
142
20
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
And what space should be like? Try playing Kerbal Space Program for example. Even though the space is empty, you'll be flying from one object to another, stuck to your orbits, unable to fly "freely".

Take a look at the paths of Voyagers or Rosetta and their many gravity assists. "It's space, why can't I fly to the Mars directly, IT'S RIGHT THERE!"

There are routes in space that are possible and there are those that are not (even if your exhaust velocity is close to the speed of light, you might not have enough delta-v to reach interstellar targets).

For me, hyperlanes are not some magical tunnel through space (but they could be, if wormholes are real), but possible routes.


I know that ships in Stellaris seem to have infinite delta-v and fuel, but I think that's an abstraction. But, if you can move freely in real space, then what kind of space you are talking about?
Are you implying hyperlanes utilizes gravitationen slings?
 

Obak

Hiiii-aaa hiiii-aa!
62 Badges
Mar 22, 2012
142
20
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
I have no idea what hyperlanes are.
I was just saying that "it's space so I can move in every direction freely" is false.
Well, the examples used are based on interplanetary travle using vehicles without engines (except their initial trusters). Comparatively primitive chemical rockers like that of a thrown rock to that of a F1 phantom.
And even within the constrains of your example, the path of Voyager is by no mean the only path, its simply the mist eficcient.
So with vehicles capable of ftl travle sizef delta v in a mostly empty space with negligble gravitation for 99.999999999% of the trip, you could travle anyehere. I simply think that you are wrong.
 
Last edited:

stilgarpl

Field Marshal
94 Badges
Dec 16, 2010
3.530
772
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Cities in Motion
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Ancient Space
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV
vehicles without engines
Where did I say that the ships have no engines?

So with vehicles capable of ftl travle
FTL is magic. There is no point of discussing realism, when one kind of FTL is just as realistic as the other.

delta v in a mostly empty space with negligble gravitation for 99.999999999% of the trip.
There is no such thing as negligible gravitation. If your ship has reached such velocity that it escaped a solar system, do you think it could just stop in deep space and fly in other direction? I know that's how it's often portrayed in sci-fi movies, but totally unrealistic. Sure, with FTL magic drives it may be, but when we have magic drives, then what's wrong with hyperlanes again?

You can't simply change direction in space. That's why New Horizons couldn't stop to study Pluto.
 

Obak

Hiiii-aaa hiiii-aa!
62 Badges
Mar 22, 2012
142
20
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
Where did I say that the ships have no engines?


FTL is magic. There is no point of discussing realism, when one kind of FTL is just as realistic as the other.


There is no such thing as negligible gravitation. If your ship has reached such velocity that it escaped a solar system, do you think it could just stop in deep space and fly in other direction? I know that's how it's often portrayed in sci-fi movies, but totally unrealistic. Sure, with FTL magic drives it may be, but when we have magic drives, then what's wrong with hyperlanes again?

You can't simply change direction in space. That's why New Horizons couldn't stop to study Pluto.
1. Ftl is theoretically possible, both warp and wirmholes.
2. Yes you cab stop in space, you just have to generate thrust in the opposite direction of travle
 

Kappenloch

Second Lieutenant
Nov 14, 2017
160
0
And what space should be like? Try playing Kerbal Space Program for example. Even though the space is empty, you'll be flying from one object to another, stuck to your orbits, unable to fly "freely".

Take a look at the paths of Voyagers or Rosetta and their many gravity assists. "It's space, why can't I fly to the Mars directly, IT'S RIGHT THERE!"

You seriously don't know the answer to that? Its because our primitive rocket craft have an incredibly tiny Delta-V and are therefore forced to travel on hohmann transfer orbits. Its not a fixed railroad map that MUST be followed and never changes. Increase the ship's Delta-V and that all goes away, you just continually accelerate towards your destination, flip around at the midpoint and then decelerate until you arrive. In that situation you CAN fly directly to Mars.

The fact that we are currently forced to travel on (slow but very efficient) Hohmann transfer orbits is purely a technological limitation, not a unchanging fact about the very nature of space travel.

A space game should NOT feel like you're stuck on train-tracks with a fixed roadmap which never changes. We have a million and one land warfare games if we want to experience roads, mountains and choke points. Space strategy should offer a different experience or really, what's the point?
 

Cat_Fuzz

General
May 10, 2016
1.772
2.365
You seriously don't know the answer to that? Its because our primitive rocket craft have an incredibly tiny Delta-V and are therefore forced to travel on hohmann transfer orbits. Its not a fixed railroad map that MUST be followed and never changes. Increase the ship's Delta-V and that all goes away, you just continually accelerate towards your destination, flip around at the midpoint and then decelerate until you arrive. In that situation you CAN fly directly to Mars.

The fact that we are currently forced to travel on (slow but very efficient) Hohmann transfer orbits is purely a technological limitation, not a unchanging fact about the very nature of space travel.

A space game should NOT feel like you're stuck on train-tracks with a fixed roadmap which never changes. We have a million and one land warfare games if we want to experience roads, mountains and choke points. Space strategy should offer a different experience or really, what's the point?

With warp as it's currently implemented then, why can't I stop my fleet mid travel between stars? After all warp is in essence the ability to travel anywhere, right?
 

stilgarpl

Field Marshal
94 Badges
Dec 16, 2010
3.530
772
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Cities in Motion
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Ancient Space
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV
You seriously don't know the answer to that? Its because our primitive rocket craft have an incredibly tiny Delta-V and are therefore forced to travel on hohmann transfer orbits.
Mars was just an illustration. If you have an engine with maximum possible ISP and thrust, you can go to Mars in an hour.

Now try calculating how far you can go in deep space, in a reasonable amount of time (no one has a million years). You'll see that by thrusting directly at stars, you'll go out of fuel/propellant way before reaching anything.
 

Kappenloch

Second Lieutenant
Nov 14, 2017
160
0
With warp as it's currently implemented then, why can't I stop my fleet mid travel between stars? After all warp is in essence the ability to travel anywhere, right?

Because like many things in Stellaris, free movement is implemented quite badly. If you were playing Distant Worlds or SOTS, you'd be able to do exactly what you suggest.

Mars was just an illustration. If you have an engine with maximum possible ISP and thrust, you can go to Mars in an hour.

Now try calculating how far you can go in deep space, in a reasonable amount of time (no one has a million years). You'll see that by thrusting directly at stars, you'll go out of fuel/propellant way before reaching anything.

That isn't even slightly applicable because you wouldn't use Newtonian propulsion for interstellar travel you'd either use some type of FTL or nothing. My point is that out of all the near-infinite FTL concepts you could choose in a space game, why choose fixed, never-changing railroad-tracks-in-space? It feels nothing like space, it feels like a skin for a RISK game. If I want to play a land-based game I have hundreds to choose from. I choose a space game to be challenged by a different kind of strategy than that offered by all the games with roads, mountains and chokepoints.
 

Person012345

Field Marshal
92 Badges
Jan 27, 2010
2.594
914
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
I choose a space game to be challenged by a different kind of strategy than that offered by all the games with roads, mountains and chokepoints.
The problem with the current implementation is that there is little to no strategy. You blob, you try to catch their fleet. This is what the changes are intending to address.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.