• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Stellaris Dev Diary #92: FTL Rework and Galactic Terrain

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary is about Faster than Light travel in the Cherryh update, and it's likely to be a controversial one. When discussing, please remember to keep things civil, and I would kindly ask that you read the entire dev diary before rushing to post, as it's going to cover some of the questions and concerns we expect to see from the playerbase. Also, as posted last week, all of these changes are currently far away, and we cannot give more details on ETAs or the exact nature of the Cherryh update than we already have. Thank you!

FTL Rework
The single biggest design issue we have had to tackle in the Stellaris team since release is the asymmetrical FTL. While it's a cool and interesting idea on paper, the honest truth is that the feature just does not fit well into the game in practice, and blocks numerous improvements on a myriad of other features such as warfare and exploration, as well as solutions to fundamental design problems like the weakness of static defenses. After a lot of debate among the designers, we finally decided that if we were ever going to be able to tackle these issues and turn Stellaris into a game with truly engrossing and interesting warfare, we would have to bite the bullet and take a controversial decision: Consolidating FTL from the current three types down into a primarily hyperlane-based game, with more advanced forms of FTL unlocked through technology.

However, as I have said on the previous occasions when discussing this issue, one thing we would never consider doing is just slashing FTL types from the game without adding in something else to compensate their loss. That is what most of this dev diary is going to be about. However, before continuing with the details on the additions and changes we're making to FTL, I want to cover a couple of the questions I expect will arise from this:

Why are you removing FTL choices instead of building on them?
A lot of people have asked this question when we have brought up consolidating FTL types before, suggesting that problems such as static defenses can be solved by just adding more mechanics to handle each special case. I think the problem with this is best illustrated with defense stations and FTL inhibitors. One of the aims of the Starbase system is to give empires the ability to 'lock down' their borders, building fortresses that enemy fleets cannot simply skip past to strike at their core worlds, instead of having to create static defenses in every single valuable system.

With hyperlanes, this is a pretty simple affair: As hyperlanes create natural choke points, the only thing a hyperlane-stopping FTL inhibitor needs to do is to prevent enemy fleets from leaving the system once they enter it. The fleet can enter, it can retreat (via emergency FTL) and it can bring down the source of the FTL inhibitor (which might be a Starbase or even a planet) to be able to continue. This is quite easy to understand, both in terms of which system you need to defend to lock down your borders, and how it works when you are on the offensive.

Now let's add Warp to the mix. In this case, the single-system FTL inhibitor is useless because Warp fleets can just go over it, so we'll invent another mechanic: A warp interdiction bubble, stretching a certain distance around the system, that pull in any hostile Warp fleets traveling there to the system containing the FTL inhibitor, and force them to battle it or retreat. This is immediately a lot more messy: First of all, this bubble can't possibly affect Hyperlane fleets, because it could potentially pull them dozens of jumps away from their current location. This means that when fortifying your borders, you now need to not just make sure that every important chokepoint is covered, but also that your entire border is covered in warp interdiction bubbles.

But there's more: Add Wormholes as well, and you now have an FTL type where not only the 'bubble' type interdictor doesn't make intuitive sense (because Wormhole fleets make point-to-point jumps rather than traveling over the map) but if said interdictor works to pull Wormhole fleets out of position regardless of what makes intuitive sense, you end up with the same probem as with hyperlanes, where the fleet can get pulled out of range of its wormhole network and end up stranded even if it brings down the defenses. This means you pretty much have to invent a third type of interdiction type for Wormhole on top of what is already an overengineered and hard to understand system.

Finally, add the problem of displaying all these different types of inhibitors and interdictors on the map, in a way that the player can even remotely start to understand, and you end up with nothing short of a complete mess, where it's far better to just have static defenses protecting single valuable systems... and so we come full circle.

This is the fundamental problem that we have been grappling with when it comes to asymmetrical FTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game with real-time gameplay and wars potentially containing a dozen actors, all with their own form of FTL. The complexity collapses into what is for the player just a mess of fleets appearing and disappearing with no discernible logic to them.

Why Hyperlanes?
When discussing this, we essentially boiled down the consolidation into three possibilities: Hyperlanes only, Warp-only, and Warp+Hyperlanes. Wormhole is simply too different a FTL type to ever really work with the others, and not intuitive enough to work as the sole starting FTL for everyone playing the game. Keeping both Warp and Hyperlanes would be an improvement, but would still keep many of the issues we currently have in regards to user experience and fleet coordination. Warp-only was considered as an alternative, but ultimately Hyperlanes won out because of the possibilities it opens up for galactic geography, static defenses and enhancements to exploration.

Here are the some of the possibilities that consolidation of FTL into Hyperlanes creates for Stellaris:
  • Unified distance, sensor and border systems that make sense for everyone (for example, cost of claiming a system not being based on euclidean distance but rather the actual distance for ships to travel there)
  • Galactic 'geography', systems that are strategically and tactically important due to location and 'terrain' (more on this below) rather than just resources
  • More possibilities for galaxy generation and exploration (for example, entire regions of space accessible only through a wormhole or a single guarded hyperlane, containing special locations and events to discover)
  • Better performance through caching and unified code (Wormhole FTL in particular is a massive resource hog in the late game)
  • Warfare with a distinct sense of 'theatres', advancing/retreating fronts and border skirmishes (more on this in future dev diaries)
Are all new forms of FTL free patch content?
Yes. Naturally we're not going to charge for any form of content meant to replace the loss of old FTL types.

Hyperlane and Sublight Travel
As mentioned, in the Cherryh update. all empires will now start the game with Hyperlanes as their only mode of FTL. By default, hyperlane generation is going to be changed to create more 'islands' and 'choke points', to make for more interesting galactic geography. However, as we know some players do not enjoy the idea of constricted space, we are going to add a slider that controls the general frequency and connectivity of hyperlanes. Turning this up will create a more connected galaxy and make it harder to protect all your systems with static defenses, for players who prefer something closer to the current game's Warp-style movement.

Sublight travel is also being changed somewhat, in the sense that you need to actually travel to the entry point to a particular hyperlane (the arrow inside a system) to enter it, rather than being able to enter any hyperlane from any point outside's a system's gravity well. This means that fleets will move in a more predictable fashion, and interdictions will frequently happen inside systems instead of nearly always being at the edge of them, in particular allowing for fleets to 'guard' important hyperlane entry/exit points. To compensate for the need to move across systems, sublight travel has been sped up, especially with more advanced forms of thrusters.
2017_11_02_2.png


FTL Sensors
Along with the change to FTL, we are also changing the way sensors work. Instead of simply being a circle radiating an arbitrary distance from a ship, station or planet, each level of sensors can now see a certain distance in FTL connections. For example, a ship with level 1 sensors (Radar) will only give sensor coverage of the same system that it is currently in, while a ship with level 2 (Gravitic) sensors will give sensor coverage of that system and all systems connected to it through a Hyperlane or explored Wormhole (more on that below), a ship with level 3 sensors will be able to see systems connected to those systems, and so on. Sensor coverage can be 'blocked' by certain galactic features (more on that below), which will also block propagation into further connected systems. We are currently discussing the implementation of sensor blockers as a potential Starbase component.
2017_11_02_1.png


Wormholes
While Wormhole as a full-fledged FTL type is gone, Wormholes are not. Instead they have been changed into a natural formation that can be encountered while exploring the galaxy. Wormholes come in pairs, essentially functioning as very long hyperlanes that can potentially take a ship across the entire galaxy near-instantly. Natural Wormholes are unstable, and when first encountered, you will not be able to explore them. To explore a Wormhole, you need the Wormhole Stabilization technology, after which a science ship can be sent to stabilize and chart the Wormhole to find out what lies on the other side. If you're lucky, this may be unclaimed space full of valuable systems, but it could just as well be a Devouring Swarm eager to come over for dinner. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of wormhole pairs in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_4.png


Gateways
Gateways is an advanced form of FTL most closely resembling the Wormhole FTL in the live version of the game. While exploring the galaxy, you can find abandoned Gateways that were once part of a massive, galaxy-spanning network. These Gateways are disabled and unusable, but with the Gateway Reactivation mid-game technology and a hefty investment of minerals, they can be restored to working order. Like Wormholes, Gateways allow for near-instant travel to other Gateways, but the difference is that any activated Gateway can be used to travel to any other activated Gateway, and late-game technology allows for the construction of more Gateways to expand the network. Also unlike Wormholes, which cannot be 'closed', Gateways also have the advantage of allowing any empire controlling the system they're in to control who goes through said Gateway - hostile empires and empires to whom you have closed your borders will not be able to use 'your' Gateways to just appear inside of your systems.

When the first Gateway is re-activated, another random Gateway will also be re-activated along with it, so that there is never a situation where you just have a single active Gateway going nowhere. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of abandoned gateways in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_8.png


Jump Drives
Jump Drives and Psi Jump Drives have been changed, and is now an advanced form of FTL that mixes Hyperdrive with some functionality from the old Warp FTL. They allow for a ship to travel normally and very quickly along hyperlanes, but also come equipped with a tactical 'jump' functionality that allows a fleet to make a point-to-point jump ignoring the normal hyperlane limitations. This is done with a special fleet order where you select a target system for the jump (within a certain pre-defined range, with Psi Jump Drives having longer range than regular Jump Drives), after which the fleet charges up its jump drive and creates a temporary wormhole leading to the system. After the fleet makes its 'jump', the Jump Drive will need to recharge, with a significant cooldown before it can be used again, and also applies a debuff to the fleet that reduces its combat effectiveness while the cooldown is in effect. This allows for fleets with Jump Drives to ignore the usual FTL restrictions and skip straight past enemy fleets and stations, but at the cost of leaving themselves vulnerable and potentially stranded for a time afterwards. This design is highly experimental, and may change during the development of Cherryh, but we wanted Jump Drives to not just be 'Hyperdrive IV' but rather to unlock new tactical and strategic possibilities for warfare.

Galactic Terrain
With the switch to Hyperlanes and the creation of strategically important systems and chokepoints, we've also decided to implement something we had always thought was a really interesting idea, but which made little sense without such chokepoints: Galactic Terrain. Specifically, systems with environmental effects and hazards that have profound tactical and strategic effects on ships and empires. This is still something we are in the middle of testing and prototyping, but so far we have created the following forms of Galactic Terrain:
Nebulas block all sensor coverage originating from other systems, meaning that it's impossible for an empire to see what ships and stations are inside a system in a nebula without having a ship or station stationed there, allowing empires to hide their fleets and set up ambushes.
Pulsars interfere with deflector technology, nullifying all ship and station shields in a system with a Pulsar.
Neutron Stars interfere with navigation and ship systems, significantly slowing down sublight travel in a system with a Neutron Star.
Black Holes interfere with FTL, increasing the time it takes for a fleet to charge its emergency FTL and making it more difficult to ships to individually disengage from combat (more on this in a later dev diary).

The above is just a first iteration, and it's something we're likely to tweak and build on more for both the Cherryh update and other updates beyond it, so stay tuned for more information on this.
2017_11_02_3.png

2017_11_02_5.png


That's all for today! I will finish this dev diary by saying that we do not expect everyone to be happy with these changes, but we truly believe that they are necessary to give Stellaris truly great warfare, and that we think you will find the game better for it once you get a chance to try them. We will be doing a Design Corner feature on today's Extraterrestial Thursday stream, where me and Game Designer Daniel Moregård (grekulf) will be discussing the changes, fielding questions and showing off some gameplay in the internal development build. If you want a look at some of these changes in a live game environment, be sure to tune to the Paradox Interactive twitch channel at 4pm CET.

Next week, we're going to talk about war and peace, including the complete rework of the current wargoal system that was made possible by the changes to FTL and system control discussed in this and last week's dev diary. See you then!
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Stormcow

Squid Lord
41 Badges
Aug 11, 2015
373
441
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
To the white knights...

If you bought a car that advertised air bags, ac, and a stereo then a year later they recalled the AC but told you fixing the AC requires removing the airbags and stereo how would you react?

question, would the car have cost me £50? because if the the car had cost me £50 and i had got nearly 2 years use from it with AC, Air Bags and a stereo then i would probably not be too bothered about the reduction in service.

although on the flip side, i did have a car where the AC broke and i could not afford to fix it. windows down in the summer, ice scrapper in the winter. im not really sure you picked the best analogy
 

FerrusR

Corporal
57 Badges
May 11, 2016
38
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
Because there is no sign, evidence or any reason to believe they exist? Warp and wormholes are predicted theoretically. These predictions have many problems like the requirement of exotic matter or negative energy, but it's a lot better than hyperlanes anyway.
That's like saying that wyverns are less realistic than dragons tbh. Warp and wormholes are both fantasy right now, not because of exotic matter but because FTL itself is fantasy.
 

Sherry Fox

First Lieutenant
18 Badges
Nov 4, 2017
298
216
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Magicka
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Magicka 2
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
How? Right now, Stellaris is basically a game with no borders.
Cute. Think. First and most obvious way is to start wrecking shit inside the enemy empire. That makes them attack you. Second is a defencive way. I play wormholes so ill explain it from a wormhole perspective. You build a defence station inside the center core world of yours. The one with FTL inhibitor. If you are early enough in the game for a starbase to count you build it near a starbase. Otherwise you build it near your wormhole station in that system. Then you build more defence stations in all the important systems inside this WH bubble. You have to build them at the place where the exit of your wormhole would appear in each of those systems if you travel there. Voila. You station your fleet near that wormhole station and you are now protecting all the sytems inside the bubble at the same time. You will have a harder time dealing with multiple fleets but thats advanced stuff:D
Edit: All those defence stations have to have an FTL inhibitor
 

FerrusR

Corporal
57 Badges
May 11, 2016
38
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
Rare natural wormholes are not difficult to imagine. Whats hard to swallow is the following stack of increasingly improbable contrived requirements....

1/ Every single star in the galaxy has at least one starlane, usually more.
2/ These starlanes only connect to nearby stars, never distant ones.
3/ Of the nearby stars, only some are connected, not all. This forms the forced "land-terrain-in-space" and choke points.

But honestly that's all besides the point, I bought Stellaris to play a space game, not land-strategy with a space skin. If I want land strategy I'll play RISK.
Nope, not every single, that's pretty good explanation why huge galaxy has only 1000 stars - because hyperlanes are rare!
 

The_Red_Star

Major
75 Badges
Aug 11, 2014
602
715
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Battle for Bosporus
That's not entirely true though. 40K lore is filled with stable or at least "safer" routes and in addition there are rifts, warp-gates and the webway. Strategic regions of space and places of the military campaigns often revolve around key points around these. Then of course there's the space-weather (or rather Warp-storms) that makes things really interesting.
Most civilian traffic and even the safer military ones are often described as using calculated jumps along known stable routes instead of navigator led "piloted jumps".
Tau and Nids can be disregarded until they make planetfall (from a narrative perspective).
Generally speaking, this doesn't really hold true.

The warp is prone to very quick and thorough fluctuations that make a consistently safe path in the warp an impossibility. It's why navigators are so needed; because the warp changes so often that without someone who can gaze into the warp to see its currents it is more or less impossible to navigate the warp.

Keep in mind that a single Chaos Sorcerer can kick up a warp storm with a ritual and that greater daemons and the Gods themselves can easily bend the currents of the warp to suit their desires.

The warp is the realm of Chaos and instability, where everything is a mercurial dream made of nonsense and built on uncontrollable emotions.

Writers who make stable warp currents are literally missing the point of the warp thematically. It's the realm of Chaos; stability and consistency is anathema to it. This is a realm where the very ground you're standing on can decide that your standing on it angers it, and it turns into blood and then chops you in half with an axe made of swear words so that it can play a game of poker with your intestines which are now snakes with chihuahua heads. It's a place of nonsensical gibberish; a neverending nightmare with virtually no rules. And when you delve into the parts of the warp that don't touch much on humanity, you get into some really weird things far stranger than the Daemons of Chaos and all semblance of comprehensible reality fade away.

Even the webway is a place of bizarre inconsistencies where "reality" is at best malleable and at worst a polite suggestion. For example, a recent novel revealed that in the deep webway are essentially abstract beings composed out of pure math that slay those who get in their way by rendering them down into their most basic, fundamental constituencies. The pretzel like folding of spacetime in the parts of the webway the Eldar dare to inhabit are just the surface of how strange the realm gets when you go off the beaten path.
 
Last edited:

Lucian667

First Lieutenant
May 17, 2016
250
64
Nope, not every single, that's pretty good explanation why huge galaxy has only 1000 stars - because hyperlanes are rare!

Lol what are you talking about? If you're playing a hyperlane-only game in Stellaris and a star doesn't have at least one hyperlane connecting it then you cant get to that star. Ever. All stars in the entire Stellaris galaxy have at least one hyperlane. THEY MUST!
 

Akka le Vil

Major
12 Badges
Nov 9, 2004
754
1.315
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
That's just your opinion. Neither hyperlanes nor warp makes any sense from a scientific standpoint as they are both physically impossible according to known physics.
Actually, warp is theorically possible (just maybe not physically). It's called an Alcubierre engine (which is, basically, Mass Effect). The problem is "can we actually obtain a negative mass field ?".
 

The_Red_Star

Major
75 Badges
Aug 11, 2014
602
715
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Battle for Bosporus
Actually, warp is theorically possible (just maybe not physically). It's called an Alcubierre engine (which is, basically, Mass Effect). The problem is "can we actually obtain a negative mass field ?".
Mass Effect Andromeda made it clear that an Alcubierre warp drive is different from the negative mass corridors that most mass effect ships use for FTL.
 

TheAtreides84

General
137 Badges
Jan 13, 2010
1.729
1.497
  • Island Bound
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
Cute. Think. First and most obvious way is to start wrecking shit inside the enemy empire. That makes them attack you. Second is a defencive way. I play wormholes so ill explain it from a wormhole perspective. You build a defence station inside the center core world of yours. The one with FTL inhibitor. If you are early enough in the game for a starbase to count you build it near a starbase. Otherwise you build it near your wormhole station in that system. Then you build more defence stations in all the important systems inside this WH bubble. You have to build them at the place where the exit of your wormhole would appear in each of those systems if you travel there. Voila. You station your fleet near that wormhole station and you are now protecting all the sytems inside the bubble at the same time. You will have a harder time dealing with multiple fleets but thats advanced stuff:D
Edit: All those defence stations have to have an FTL inhibitor

And you have to repeat this extremely convoluted strategy for every bunch of planets. Then stations get destroyed and you've to rebuild them. So you have micro-hell to avoid mole-hell. Folks, you can't ask people to deal with this kind of annoyance. They'll just play something else. And professional devs know this very well.
 

Lucian667

First Lieutenant
May 17, 2016
250
64
Nope, not every single, that's pretty good explanation why huge galaxy has only 1000 stars - because hyperlanes are rare!

Ah I finally get what you're talking about, sorry its late at night and my brain is sleepy. Yes, I guess that's a good bit of fluff to aid in the desperately required suspension of disbelief. I can delete my dislike from your post now. :)
 

Paradoxity

Private
Nov 3, 2017
11
0
Actually, warp is theorically possible (just maybe not physically). It's called an Alcubierre engine (which is, basically, Mass Effect). The problem is "can we actually obtain a negative mass field ?".

Ya know, that might actually be more fun- a mass effect compromise kind of system, where you have clusters of stars you can reach freely, but between clusters you have to use a gate (Or hyperlane or wormhole or whatever you wanna call it). Warfare inside the cluster would be a lot like things are now, while you'd still have the important choke points for people that want to turtle up.
 

mario94

Sergeant
Nov 2, 2017
73
0
And I said it was the best model, in my opinion. But it's different from free movement in one crucial way: the hex-grid works as a support for the AI. What to us may seem so granular that is basically "free", nevertheless is discrete and for the AI is still more similar to a travel-by-node model. And there are chokepoints in GalCiv. You can box a system with starbases if you want: you need six of them, and that's all. You can't do it in current Stellaris because a warp equipped ship will jump over your fortification ring.

I agree it's easier to teach the AI how to operate in a discretized space, the problem is that warfare gets so simplified it never really poses a threat. Frankly difficulty wise i never saw much of a difference between the two systems.
The only noteworthy exeption being 'AI war' but it should be kept in mind that this game also presents a much more sophisticated tactical gameplay.

Also i'd like to point out that you can only box a planet not a system in six starbases, which is not possible in stellaris but only for artificial limitations in distances between stations. Even then it's a huge committment in production and you'd be better off building ships that you can at least move elsewhere
 

RoboCzar

Major
145 Badges
Apr 4, 2001
511
15
Visit site
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Lead and Gold
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Starvoid
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
Also i'd like to point out that you can only box a planet not a system in six starbases, which is not possible in stellaris but only for artificial limitations in distances between stations. Even then it's a huge committment in production and you'd be better off building ships that you can at least move elsewhere

FTL snare. Required for any kind of systemwide defense.
 

Akka le Vil

Major
12 Badges
Nov 9, 2004
754
1.315
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Mass Effect Andromeda made it clear that an Alcubierre warp drive is different from the negative mass corridors that most mass effect ships use for FTL.
Didn't touch Andromeda so no idea what they said there, but ME1 codex explain the ability to go "faster than light" by lowering the energy density field around the spacecraft, which is the exact description of an Alcubierre engine.
 

bbswfan

Second Lieutenant
43 Badges
Apr 30, 2009
150
17
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
I also posted some concerns diplomatically speaking:



My concern is that the map will; even with the highest hyperlane settings, feel like it's sectioned up rather arbitrarily. In the historical games if you have sea access you basically have world access presuming you have the fleet and trooplifting capacity to make use of it because screw your borders, the seas are international waters. There is no counterpart to this in Stellaris. What I like about old jump and wormhole in particular is the ability to project power anywhere in the galaxy if I either take the time to build the infrastructure (wormholes) or put in the effort to get the end game FTL. To a lesser extent warp can also do this but yikes, those cooldowns.

Hyperdrives are disadvantaged by their negligable power projection ability. If the wrong person closes borders you are suddenly unable to interact with that entire part of the galaxy while Jump, Warp, and Wormhole had the range to let you find another way to move if someone between you and an ally closed their borders. Whereas with Hyperdrive; if someone between you and an ally closes their borders they're basically SOL and the only option is wars to correct the borders. And I personally dislike forming mega-blobs that span the entire galaxy (something hyperdrive rather strongly encourages by making forming noncontinuous empires far harder); I'd rather form the equivalent of a maritime empire.

I want more soft power mechanics, and a good means of getting softpower is having allies up in someone's grill to keep them polite. Hyperlanes don't encourage that at all.

If I believed that the dev team wasn't going to overhaul their border system as well and that they were just removing the other FTL methods without looking at how this will impact other relavent systems in the game, I'd agree with you. However, I don't :) I'd be shocked and disappointed if the way the game handles borders wasn't immediately changed after making the game hyperlane only because you're right, it's very easy to get screwed by happenstance in the game's current state if you play hyperlane. However, the way the game handles space borders has always been something of a mess, and they have already hinted in posts that they are already working on changing them to an unknown degree.

My hope is that by the end of the border changes, the "closed borders" option will be removed altogether. Mechanically and physically it doesn't make sense. How can you stop a fleet from traveling through space? Even if it is "your space", unless you have a means of physically stopping them. Build space toll booths? Charge the offending government for transit retroactively? Write a strongly worded letter? And mechanically you already mentioned the problem. Once I was able to cut off a xenophobic empire that closed their border with me (so I reciprocated) and kept it so that they weren't able to colonize at all throughout the entire game because their homeworld was trapped in a planetless cul-du-sac. It was funny but also bad game design.

Borders is one of the many game systems that that I believe is going to end up being effected by the FTL change when all is said and done. The cross my fingers hope that I'm not sure if they'll have the guts to do is allow other empires to colonize worlds even in "your space" and vice versa. Perhaps at increased cost, perhaps a huge opinion penalty, I'm not sure what, but if border protrusion remains as it currently is, I'd love for this to be possible.
 

FerrusR

Corporal
57 Badges
May 11, 2016
38
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
Actually, warp is theorically possible (just maybe not physically). It's called an Alcubierre engine (which is, basically, Mass Effect). The problem is "can we actually obtain a negative mass field ?".
Any FTL will allow time travel. In current physics time travel is not realistic. Seriously that's like arguing what is more realistic, zombies or vampires (hey, I want to make some bad analogies as well).
Lol what are you talking about? If you're playing a hyperlane-only game in Stellaris and a star doesn't have at least one hyperlane connecting it then you cant get to that star. Ever. All stars in the entire Stellaris galaxy have at least one hyperlane. THEY MUST!
Okay, I'll elaborate. You do know that galaxies usually have more than 1000 stars? Then why is the galaxy in stellaris so small, immersion-breaking and unrealistic? Well, that's because hyperlanes are rare, and the stars you see are the only ones that have them! Other stars are just background/invisible for convenience. And they are very rare - 1000 stars out of billions. And there can even be other hyperlane networks in the same galaxy with other civilizations you can never meet. I'd say this is some good immersion.
Edit: typed before reading your next post, I'll still leave it I guess.
 

Praetori

High-Command Scapegoat
81 Badges
Aug 6, 2009
2.869
2.100
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
Generally speaking, this doesn't really hold true.

The warp is prone to very quick and thorough fluctuations that make a consistently safe path in the warp an impossibility. It's why navigators are so needed; because the warp changes so often that without someone who can gaze into the warp to see its currents it is more or less impossible to navigate the warp.

Keep in mind that a single Chaos Sorcerer can kick up a warp storm with a ritual and that greater daemons and the Gods themselves can easily bend the currents of the warp to suit their desires.

The warp is the realm of Chaos and instability, where everything is a mercurial dream made of nonsense and built on uncontrollable emotions.

Writers who make stable warp currents are literally missing the point of the warp thematically. It's the realm of Chaos; stability and consistency is anathema to it. This is a realm where the very ground you're standing on can decide that your standing on it angers it, and it turns into blood and then chops you in half with an axe made of swear words so that it can play a game of poker with your intestines which are now snakes with chihuahua heads. It's a place of nonsensical gibberish; a neverending nightmare with virtually no rules.

Truth to be told the 40K fluff and lore contains a bit of both depending on canon writer and setting (no matter what one thinks about it). Pre Heresy and inquisatorial fluff (with civilian interaction, rouge traders and whatnot) often mention jump-points and local beacons (other than the Astronomican) and decently (grimdark baseline) "reliable" cogitator calculated routes and jumps while Horus Rebellion settings, Sabbath Worlds Campaigns etc often describe a more volatile Warp environment. And given the time-scale of 40k there's little wonder that famous "routes" over the millennia have faded or become overcome by warpstorms (but the Rogue Trader rulebooks and novel fluff does contain more of the non-military, non daring "navigotor"-piloted stuff).
 

Lucian667

First Lieutenant
May 17, 2016
250
64
Okay, I'll elaborate. You do know that galaxies usually have more than 1000 stars? Then why is the galaxy in stellaris so small, immersion-breaking and unrealistic? Well, that's because hyperlanes are rare, and the stars you see are the only ones that have them! Other stars are just background/invisible for convenience. And they are very rare - 1000 stars out of billions. And there can even be other hyperlane networks in the same galaxy with other civilizations you can never meet. I'd say this is some good immersion.
Edit: typed before reading your next post, I'll still leave it I guess.

Yeah I eventually figured it out. You're right, hyperlanes are so inherently wacky that they desperately need a suspension of disbelief rationale and your explanation is as good as any and better than most (like ancient elder race network....etc). I blame lack of sleep, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Edit: It just occurred to me that it also follows from your "rare starlanes" rationale that each starlane, even the short ones, would be several thousand light years long. Not a huge deal I guess, but interesting.
 
Last edited:

Sherry Fox

First Lieutenant
18 Badges
Nov 4, 2017
298
216
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Magicka
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Magicka 2
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
And you have to repeat this extremely convoluted strategy for every bunch of planets. Then stations get destroyed and you've to rebuild them. Folks, you can't ask people to deal with this kind of annoyance. They'll just play something else. And professional devs know this very well.
Stations are meant to be destroyed. And borders are meant to be maintained. What you want is an easy mode 'i win' button. You will have to rebuild shit on your borders anyway. Or do you want to be so strong that enemies cant scratch paint of your ships and stations? Thats boring
 
Status
Not open for further replies.