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Stellaris Dev Diary #92: FTL Rework and Galactic Terrain

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary is about Faster than Light travel in the Cherryh update, and it's likely to be a controversial one. When discussing, please remember to keep things civil, and I would kindly ask that you read the entire dev diary before rushing to post, as it's going to cover some of the questions and concerns we expect to see from the playerbase. Also, as posted last week, all of these changes are currently far away, and we cannot give more details on ETAs or the exact nature of the Cherryh update than we already have. Thank you!

FTL Rework
The single biggest design issue we have had to tackle in the Stellaris team since release is the asymmetrical FTL. While it's a cool and interesting idea on paper, the honest truth is that the feature just does not fit well into the game in practice, and blocks numerous improvements on a myriad of other features such as warfare and exploration, as well as solutions to fundamental design problems like the weakness of static defenses. After a lot of debate among the designers, we finally decided that if we were ever going to be able to tackle these issues and turn Stellaris into a game with truly engrossing and interesting warfare, we would have to bite the bullet and take a controversial decision: Consolidating FTL from the current three types down into a primarily hyperlane-based game, with more advanced forms of FTL unlocked through technology.

However, as I have said on the previous occasions when discussing this issue, one thing we would never consider doing is just slashing FTL types from the game without adding in something else to compensate their loss. That is what most of this dev diary is going to be about. However, before continuing with the details on the additions and changes we're making to FTL, I want to cover a couple of the questions I expect will arise from this:

Why are you removing FTL choices instead of building on them?
A lot of people have asked this question when we have brought up consolidating FTL types before, suggesting that problems such as static defenses can be solved by just adding more mechanics to handle each special case. I think the problem with this is best illustrated with defense stations and FTL inhibitors. One of the aims of the Starbase system is to give empires the ability to 'lock down' their borders, building fortresses that enemy fleets cannot simply skip past to strike at their core worlds, instead of having to create static defenses in every single valuable system.

With hyperlanes, this is a pretty simple affair: As hyperlanes create natural choke points, the only thing a hyperlane-stopping FTL inhibitor needs to do is to prevent enemy fleets from leaving the system once they enter it. The fleet can enter, it can retreat (via emergency FTL) and it can bring down the source of the FTL inhibitor (which might be a Starbase or even a planet) to be able to continue. This is quite easy to understand, both in terms of which system you need to defend to lock down your borders, and how it works when you are on the offensive.

Now let's add Warp to the mix. In this case, the single-system FTL inhibitor is useless because Warp fleets can just go over it, so we'll invent another mechanic: A warp interdiction bubble, stretching a certain distance around the system, that pull in any hostile Warp fleets traveling there to the system containing the FTL inhibitor, and force them to battle it or retreat. This is immediately a lot more messy: First of all, this bubble can't possibly affect Hyperlane fleets, because it could potentially pull them dozens of jumps away from their current location. This means that when fortifying your borders, you now need to not just make sure that every important chokepoint is covered, but also that your entire border is covered in warp interdiction bubbles.

But there's more: Add Wormholes as well, and you now have an FTL type where not only the 'bubble' type interdictor doesn't make intuitive sense (because Wormhole fleets make point-to-point jumps rather than traveling over the map) but if said interdictor works to pull Wormhole fleets out of position regardless of what makes intuitive sense, you end up with the same probem as with hyperlanes, where the fleet can get pulled out of range of its wormhole network and end up stranded even if it brings down the defenses. This means you pretty much have to invent a third type of interdiction type for Wormhole on top of what is already an overengineered and hard to understand system.

Finally, add the problem of displaying all these different types of inhibitors and interdictors on the map, in a way that the player can even remotely start to understand, and you end up with nothing short of a complete mess, where it's far better to just have static defenses protecting single valuable systems... and so we come full circle.

This is the fundamental problem that we have been grappling with when it comes to asymmetrical FTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game with real-time gameplay and wars potentially containing a dozen actors, all with their own form of FTL. The complexity collapses into what is for the player just a mess of fleets appearing and disappearing with no discernible logic to them.

Why Hyperlanes?
When discussing this, we essentially boiled down the consolidation into three possibilities: Hyperlanes only, Warp-only, and Warp+Hyperlanes. Wormhole is simply too different a FTL type to ever really work with the others, and not intuitive enough to work as the sole starting FTL for everyone playing the game. Keeping both Warp and Hyperlanes would be an improvement, but would still keep many of the issues we currently have in regards to user experience and fleet coordination. Warp-only was considered as an alternative, but ultimately Hyperlanes won out because of the possibilities it opens up for galactic geography, static defenses and enhancements to exploration.

Here are the some of the possibilities that consolidation of FTL into Hyperlanes creates for Stellaris:
  • Unified distance, sensor and border systems that make sense for everyone (for example, cost of claiming a system not being based on euclidean distance but rather the actual distance for ships to travel there)
  • Galactic 'geography', systems that are strategically and tactically important due to location and 'terrain' (more on this below) rather than just resources
  • More possibilities for galaxy generation and exploration (for example, entire regions of space accessible only through a wormhole or a single guarded hyperlane, containing special locations and events to discover)
  • Better performance through caching and unified code (Wormhole FTL in particular is a massive resource hog in the late game)
  • Warfare with a distinct sense of 'theatres', advancing/retreating fronts and border skirmishes (more on this in future dev diaries)
Are all new forms of FTL free patch content?
Yes. Naturally we're not going to charge for any form of content meant to replace the loss of old FTL types.

Hyperlane and Sublight Travel
As mentioned, in the Cherryh update. all empires will now start the game with Hyperlanes as their only mode of FTL. By default, hyperlane generation is going to be changed to create more 'islands' and 'choke points', to make for more interesting galactic geography. However, as we know some players do not enjoy the idea of constricted space, we are going to add a slider that controls the general frequency and connectivity of hyperlanes. Turning this up will create a more connected galaxy and make it harder to protect all your systems with static defenses, for players who prefer something closer to the current game's Warp-style movement.

Sublight travel is also being changed somewhat, in the sense that you need to actually travel to the entry point to a particular hyperlane (the arrow inside a system) to enter it, rather than being able to enter any hyperlane from any point outside's a system's gravity well. This means that fleets will move in a more predictable fashion, and interdictions will frequently happen inside systems instead of nearly always being at the edge of them, in particular allowing for fleets to 'guard' important hyperlane entry/exit points. To compensate for the need to move across systems, sublight travel has been sped up, especially with more advanced forms of thrusters.
2017_11_02_2.png


FTL Sensors
Along with the change to FTL, we are also changing the way sensors work. Instead of simply being a circle radiating an arbitrary distance from a ship, station or planet, each level of sensors can now see a certain distance in FTL connections. For example, a ship with level 1 sensors (Radar) will only give sensor coverage of the same system that it is currently in, while a ship with level 2 (Gravitic) sensors will give sensor coverage of that system and all systems connected to it through a Hyperlane or explored Wormhole (more on that below), a ship with level 3 sensors will be able to see systems connected to those systems, and so on. Sensor coverage can be 'blocked' by certain galactic features (more on that below), which will also block propagation into further connected systems. We are currently discussing the implementation of sensor blockers as a potential Starbase component.
2017_11_02_1.png


Wormholes
While Wormhole as a full-fledged FTL type is gone, Wormholes are not. Instead they have been changed into a natural formation that can be encountered while exploring the galaxy. Wormholes come in pairs, essentially functioning as very long hyperlanes that can potentially take a ship across the entire galaxy near-instantly. Natural Wormholes are unstable, and when first encountered, you will not be able to explore them. To explore a Wormhole, you need the Wormhole Stabilization technology, after which a science ship can be sent to stabilize and chart the Wormhole to find out what lies on the other side. If you're lucky, this may be unclaimed space full of valuable systems, but it could just as well be a Devouring Swarm eager to come over for dinner. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of wormhole pairs in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_4.png


Gateways
Gateways is an advanced form of FTL most closely resembling the Wormhole FTL in the live version of the game. While exploring the galaxy, you can find abandoned Gateways that were once part of a massive, galaxy-spanning network. These Gateways are disabled and unusable, but with the Gateway Reactivation mid-game technology and a hefty investment of minerals, they can be restored to working order. Like Wormholes, Gateways allow for near-instant travel to other Gateways, but the difference is that any activated Gateway can be used to travel to any other activated Gateway, and late-game technology allows for the construction of more Gateways to expand the network. Also unlike Wormholes, which cannot be 'closed', Gateways also have the advantage of allowing any empire controlling the system they're in to control who goes through said Gateway - hostile empires and empires to whom you have closed your borders will not be able to use 'your' Gateways to just appear inside of your systems.

When the first Gateway is re-activated, another random Gateway will also be re-activated along with it, so that there is never a situation where you just have a single active Gateway going nowhere. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of abandoned gateways in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_8.png


Jump Drives
Jump Drives and Psi Jump Drives have been changed, and is now an advanced form of FTL that mixes Hyperdrive with some functionality from the old Warp FTL. They allow for a ship to travel normally and very quickly along hyperlanes, but also come equipped with a tactical 'jump' functionality that allows a fleet to make a point-to-point jump ignoring the normal hyperlane limitations. This is done with a special fleet order where you select a target system for the jump (within a certain pre-defined range, with Psi Jump Drives having longer range than regular Jump Drives), after which the fleet charges up its jump drive and creates a temporary wormhole leading to the system. After the fleet makes its 'jump', the Jump Drive will need to recharge, with a significant cooldown before it can be used again, and also applies a debuff to the fleet that reduces its combat effectiveness while the cooldown is in effect. This allows for fleets with Jump Drives to ignore the usual FTL restrictions and skip straight past enemy fleets and stations, but at the cost of leaving themselves vulnerable and potentially stranded for a time afterwards. This design is highly experimental, and may change during the development of Cherryh, but we wanted Jump Drives to not just be 'Hyperdrive IV' but rather to unlock new tactical and strategic possibilities for warfare.

Galactic Terrain
With the switch to Hyperlanes and the creation of strategically important systems and chokepoints, we've also decided to implement something we had always thought was a really interesting idea, but which made little sense without such chokepoints: Galactic Terrain. Specifically, systems with environmental effects and hazards that have profound tactical and strategic effects on ships and empires. This is still something we are in the middle of testing and prototyping, but so far we have created the following forms of Galactic Terrain:
Nebulas block all sensor coverage originating from other systems, meaning that it's impossible for an empire to see what ships and stations are inside a system in a nebula without having a ship or station stationed there, allowing empires to hide their fleets and set up ambushes.
Pulsars interfere with deflector technology, nullifying all ship and station shields in a system with a Pulsar.
Neutron Stars interfere with navigation and ship systems, significantly slowing down sublight travel in a system with a Neutron Star.
Black Holes interfere with FTL, increasing the time it takes for a fleet to charge its emergency FTL and making it more difficult to ships to individually disengage from combat (more on this in a later dev diary).

The above is just a first iteration, and it's something we're likely to tweak and build on more for both the Cherryh update and other updates beyond it, so stay tuned for more information on this.
2017_11_02_3.png

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That's all for today! I will finish this dev diary by saying that we do not expect everyone to be happy with these changes, but we truly believe that they are necessary to give Stellaris truly great warfare, and that we think you will find the game better for it once you get a chance to try them. We will be doing a Design Corner feature on today's Extraterrestial Thursday stream, where me and Game Designer Daniel Moregård (grekulf) will be discussing the changes, fielding questions and showing off some gameplay in the internal development build. If you want a look at some of these changes in a live game environment, be sure to tune to the Paradox Interactive twitch channel at 4pm CET.

Next week, we're going to talk about war and peace, including the complete rework of the current wargoal system that was made possible by the changes to FTL and system control discussed in this and last week's dev diary. See you then!
 
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Sherry Fox

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Let me ask this then, you hate these decisions. But there are a lot of people who like them. So if you got your way, and everyone else was upset: well, that doesn't matter? It only matters that you got what you wanted and all the other players be damned? Or should it be a committee thing? Should every new feature be put up to a vote? Or perhaps the game should only see bug fixes? I haven't enjoyed either of the past two updates because they only added things I really didn't care about. I think the game is "better" for them, but were they what I wanted? No. Not at all.

@Akka le Vil - I agree with your point a bit more but Stellaris warfare has never been interesting or fun. Check every topic ever written on the subject and there are a million ideas but only one consensus - it ain't that damn good. And never once has praise been levied at the fact it can be fought among three FTL types, in fact that's almost universally been considered one of the problems. Sure, ideas have always been from the viewpoint that there are three, but I've never seen someone state that was the "good part". So yeah, if this change is the foundation on which Stellaris grows a more focused and interesting game, I'm on board.
Let me ask you this then? What if we left in only Wormholes, which is my preferred play-style. Id hate it all the same cause it cuts diversity. There is a big difference between putting a cast on your broken arm and cutting it off, cause, you know, its broken(plus youd have the other one so its all good right?better than before cause its not broken anymore)

All would be fine if they truly replaced lost content. They didnt. All we got are extra long hyperlanes(wormholes) and a rare insignificant teleport. These additions are unrelated, not replacing
 

Stahl-Opa

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Let me ask this then, you hate these decisions. But there are a lot of people who like them. So if you got your way, and everyone else was upset: well, that doesn't matter? It only matters that you got what you wanted and all the other players be damned? Or should it be a committee thing? Should every new feature be put up to a vote? Or perhaps the game should only see bug fixes? I haven't enjoyed either of the past two updates because they only added things I really didn't care about. I think the game is "better" for them, but were they what I wanted? No. Not at all.

Hmm, wait. like it was before 2000AD - You get a FINISHED game. You buy something you know - and this will be alltimes the same in it's core. Maybe there is an expasion which ADDS something, but yes, basically A game with only bugfixes.
 

Hyomoto

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Are you saying that you believe that flying through an asteroid field at Warp speed would be perfectly safe?
Yeah, most likely. This is the thing, space is so insanely big it's really kind of hard to wrap our heads around just how big it is. Space Engineers is perhaps the most reasonable depiction, in which case the question would be how far could you fly in that game in a straight line without hitting anything. The answer: there are an infinite number of paths that go on for infinity. So yeah, you definitely could. Though I think given, again, how large space is, you'd fly around them.
 

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Well, there goes another game i will no longer support.
It's sad, because the border change had so much potential... but this mandatory star-lane garbage kills it for me.

In a sense it's good that they released the information this early... i was about to purchase some other paradox games.
But now, that i have gotten some insight about how this company operates - removing prominent features where you either go along with it or stuck with a possibly buggy version - it might be better to cut my losses and leave.

At least i still have MoO, MoO2, BotF, SotS and SotS2.
I might event purchase Distant Worlds - the civilian operated economy looks pretty appealing.
 

Mrakvampire

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how do you know that all Asteroid fields are the same , that they are km apart . they are some that are dense pack ,also you know that some Asteroid have some gravity an can pull things in

I know this because I actually studied astrophysics, you now. :)
Densely packed asteroid field can't exist, as you have stated it will create planetoids (planets) due to gravity attraction.
 
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ModernModron

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Good grief, that was a lot of reading. But I'm finally caught up to all 147 pages and activated my account, so now I can post my thoughts and only be ~10 pages behind the times when I'm done. Yippee!

Personally, I really, REALLY dislike the proposed changes. I played one hyperdrive-only game, and it was just so damn tedious waiting for my fleet to get anywhere. I was never more grateful for Jump Drives than I was in that game. So the thought of not only being stuck with hyperdrives forever, but also having to slog through each system in between the hyperspace jumps, is extremely concerning.

Worse than that, however, I don't see how this will improve the game. Forced choke points - the entire point of hyperlane only - seems like it will heavily favor turtling. If you can bunker down behind a small number of fortresses, wouldn't the optimum tactic be to do just that, wait for the braindead AI to commit to an attack on your strongpoint, use your doomstack+defenses to beat his doomstack in detail, then win the war before he can rebuild? Seems likely to me, unless the war is so one sided that defenses weren't going to matter in the first place.

I guess you could have a situation where your 'core worlds' are safe in a relatively small cluster, and the conflict comes from trying to secure another cluster which could then be fortified. That would actually be a somewhat interesting scenario, but it seems like it would be very hard to make such a transient situation the norm. And it seems exceedingly unlikely the AI could handle such a situation in the first place.

So I fear we're giving up a lot of replay value and flexibility in exchange for guaranteed tedium and ephemeral hopes of improved warfare. That's not very appealing.

Moreover, I think the devs really screwed up this diary in two major ways. First, as has already been observed, the reasoning for the change presented in the diary is backwards.
Actually, I found his argument pretty terrible. He basically aimed one a single, precise "solution" (making a chokepoint) and explained how this very restricted point was a headache with three different FTL concepts. But that's reasoning backward : you take a problem and look for solutions, you don't start with a solution and consider the problem isn't valid.
The problem was "how to be able to defend your territory", and the only approach he had was "how to make a chokepoint". Seems he completely ignored that space simply isn't about chokepoints, and that another design would be required.
Static defenses being able to slow down fleet and jam/slow down their FTL cooldown (and survive long enough for it to be actually relevant) works for all sort of FTL, without this "magnet" effect he shown as impossible to solve. Colonized systems increasing your own fleet speed/FTL cooldown would also work. Planet-based defenses that can only be silenced by occupying the planet could also act as very effective defenses.

The problem is this stupid focus on ground-based tactics ("frontlines", "chokepoints", etc.). It's having a hammer and then saying "screws are crap, let's make them into nails" instead of dropping the hammer and taking a screwdriver.

Precisely. They wanted to make chokepoints in space, and used combat improvement as an excuse to justify chokepoints; warp/wormhole were removed when they got in the way of this. They did not start by analyzing why combat is such a mess (that it's a ludicrously simplistic numbers game with no secondary mechanics to influence things), then try to brainstorm solutions to fix the problem. It's probably a resource thing, since they can't lock a redesigned combat system behind a paywall any solution needs to be done on the cheap. That may be sound business sense, but it clearly hurts the quality of the product. Perhaps the devs will hit on some clever ideas in the next patch, but their reasoning here doesn't give me much hope.

That leads to the second mistake. The devs knew this was going to be a controversial decision. Yet even so, they still released this dev diary WITHOUT REVEALING ANY OF THE OTHER CHANGES THAT MIGHT RESULT FROM IT! I know revealing things over time is the way the diaries normally work - to set a steady pace, build up interest, and give them time to adapt - but in this case I think it will backfire. They really should have waited to announce the FTL changes until they were also able to announce the warfare changes. Telling the players we have to wait a week (or more) before learning why our pet features are being slaughtered is like pouring alcohol on a fire. Poor judgement, which again does little to inspire my confidence.

Lastly:
I'm pages and pages behind, but... Master of Orion 1 and 2 ere not space lane games- they featured open travel limited by fuel range anchored to your colony locations- it was kind of like a cross between Warp and Wormhole in the current Stellaris system. The only space lane-like parts were naturally-occurring wormholes that could link distant systems with an instantaneous tunnel that allowed traversal even if the endpoint of the wormhole was outside of your fuel range.

Space lanes started showing up later, like in Ascendancy (which featured a spherical starmap, which was rather peculiar to work around, and real-time game progression with time compression controls like Stellaris) and MOO3 (which still allowed off-starlane travel, though at gimped speeds, and suffered from many terrible design decisions that still leave a sour taste in Master of Orion fans' mouths- generally speaking, they're some of the most vocal opponents to starlanes and real-time tactical combat in the 4X community). From my perspective, open travel IS retro. And it's a retro I want to see more.

You and me both, Stormhawke.

-MM
 

Sherry Fox

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It's all WIz's fault! He's a fanboy of hyperlanes so now he decided to shit on everyone who likes the old system!

Unacceptable!
Yeah, he said the new system was engaging. Im pretty sure it would be for me too, fist time. But then I personally can see how much it cuts out. I loved not having to build a line of defences. It was a unique combination of not caring where your system was for defene and caring where it was for resources(through borders)
 

Divi

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I'd like to point out for the hyperlane-only players who apparently had trouble catching other fleets when turning on other FTLs
- Wormholes have warmup times and visible stations, even as a warp empire I've managed to catch up to them by sending a squadron in extremis
- Hyperlanes have massive advantage over warp empires at war, which is that they don't have a month-or-two-long rest time between jumps. The trick to catching them is to bait them instead of hoping your doomstack will be quick enough, as it never is.
- If you can't catch a warp fleet with hyperlanes, you're not as good at this game as you think
 

Mouthwash

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Yeah, he said the new system was engaging. Im pretty sure it would be for me too, fist time. But then I personally can see how much it cuts out. I loved not having to build a line of defences. It was a unique combination of not caring where your system was for defene and caring where it was for resources(through borders)

Yeah, stripping out forts from EUIV would also add that unique flavor, no?
 

CharlieFox

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imagine if i sold you a car. You like it. Then a year later i come, take your car and replace it with a bicycle. It will be the same color though. Your response?

My response would be select the beta patch and roll my bicycle back to the Car.

You can still play game as it is now, no one is taking that from you. If you disagree with the direction paradox is taking the game you can vote with your wallet and don’t buy any new expansions.

And I am sure there will be plenty of mods that would make something very similar to warp drives from the start.
 

Hyomoto

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Let me ask you this then? What if we left in only Wormholes, which is my preferred play-style. Id hate it all the same cause it cuts diversity. There is a big difference between putting a cast on your broken arm and cutting it off, cause, you know, its broken(plus youd have the other one so its all good right?better than before cause its not broken anymore)
Wormholes are staying in but becoming even cooler and "warp" is staying in but becoming a late game travel mode. Plus gates, or whatever, are being added as well so ... all that's going away is your starting choice.

Hmm, wait. like it was before 2000AD - You get a FINISHED game. You buy something you know - and this will be alltimes the same in it's core. Maybe there is an expasion which ADDS something, but yes, basically A game with only bugfixes.
So your issue is with Paradoxes business model, not with Stellaris. Because if you think you are telling me something I don't know, let me present the following image:
irF9e5u.jpg

All of these games that were made before, and even some made after, the X360 generation will never see an update. They were sold complete. I still prefer to purchase physical games because while my Steam library will one day vaporize, my NES will probably continue to work, even with the fear of bit rot, after I have died. However, PC has never been like that, and patches for games are as old as transferable media. And while you could argue that it is uncommon for a game, especially one with DLC, to receive a vanilla overhaul, if I wanted to be a jerk about it, I'd point out that if you read your terms of service you'd note that you didn't actually buy Stellaris or it's DLC, you paid for a license to access the content. And if that content were to change, or even outright disappear, you'd have agreed to it when you clicked buy.

Now, what I do understand is not knowing that they may take this route one day, and I empathize with that. While I don't think this will 'ruin' the game, as I said in previous post I do think they should put up a legacy branch. It may not be the consolation prize people want, but the alternative would be to launch STELLARIS2 which would also have the knock on of making a lot of the players angry. So when I say it's possible this may be good, I mean for the game. As a business model, well, that's a different discussion.
 

NexusCron

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Wormholes are staying in but becoming even cooler and "warp" is staying in but becoming a late game travel mode. Plus gates, or whatever, are being added as well so ... all that's going away is your starting choice.


So your issue is with Paradoxes business model, not with Stellaris. Because if you think you are telling me something I don't know, let me present the following image:
irF9e5u.jpg

All of these games that were made before, and even some made after, the X360 generation will never see an update. They were sold complete. I still prefer to purchase physical games because while my Steam library will one day vaporize, my NES will probably continue to work, even with the fear of bit rot, after I have died. However, PC has never been like that, and patches for games are as old as transferable media. And while you could argue that it is uncommon for a game, especially one with DLC, to receive a late game overhaul, if I wanted to be a jerk about it, I'd point out that if you read your terms of service you'd note that you didn't actually buy Stellaris or it's DLC, you paid for a license to access the content. And if that content were to change, or even outright disappear, you'd have agreed to it when you clicked buy.

Now, what I do understand is not knowing that they may take this route one day, and I empathize with that. While I don't think this will 'ruin' the game, as I said in previous post I do think they should put up a legacy branch. It may not be the consolation prize people want, but the alternative would be to launch STELLARIS2 which would also have the knock on of making a lot of the players angry. So when I say it's possible this may be good, I mean for the game. As a business model, well, that's a different discussion.
Sweet Fredickson the Crazy midget. ...That is ALOT of games dude. Wow.
 

Sherry Fox

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Precisely. They wanted to make chokepoints in space, and used combat improvement as an excuse to justify chokepoints; warp/wormhole were removed when they got in the way of this. They did not start by analyzing why combat is such a mess (that it's a ludicrously simplistic numbers game with no secondary mechanics to influence things), then try to brainstorm solutions to fix the problem. It's probably a resource thing, since they can't lock a redesigned combat system behind a paywall any solution needs to be done on the cheap. That may be sound business sense, but it clearly hurts the quality of the product. Perhaps the devs will hit on some clever ideas in the next patch, but their reasoning here doesn't give me much hope.


-MM
It would be so much fun to have effects that span between systems. Like nebulae debuffing shields. Some megastructures dampening fire rates. Making battleships count. Just flat out reduce fleet sizes to make each fleet design be something to be considered carefully.
 

Wolffox

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Yeah, most likely. This is the thing, space is so insanely big it's really kind of hard to wrap our heads around just how big it is. Space Engineers is perhaps the most reasonable depiction, in which case the question would be how far could you fly in that game in a straight line without hitting anything. The answer: there are an infinite number of paths that go on for infinity. So yeah, you definitely could. Though I think given, again, how large space is, you'd fly around them.

in that game your not using a warp drive , you are using thrusters . yes they mod it an add them in which I have not look into but I still don't think they are warp thou them most likely they are going around them , if you going to use a game to try to make a point am going to use star war , that scene they didn't try to hyper line thou it they try to use it to hide cause it be hard for a big ship to follow them an the small ship to were having trouble thou it . star trek once again they did not warp thou a asteroid field they use there thruster are if you watch it the war they show a field an asteroid an that they would have to warp around it or go thou it an take lots of damage an time
 

Thorin

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I would also suggest free updates for EU/Vicky/HOI:

Instead of free naval invasion, allow naval invasions through predetermined invasionlanes, this will also help the AI to do invasions better and help us understand where we should place the defending units.
Also, in HOI, instead of completely free paradropping, you should only be able to paradrop from predeterminded provinces to other predetermined provinces using special airports called gateports. A few gateports will be place at start, and later your may build a few more at great cost.
 

Akka le Vil

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Let me ask this then, you hate these decisions. But there are a lot of people who like them.
Sorry, but no. People don't "like" the idea that there will only be one FTL method. They "like" what they THINK this restriction will cause (somehow fixing the fighting system, for instance). Especially as being able to restrict the game to one kind of FTL way was ALREADY possible.
So if you got your way, and everyone else was upset: well, that doesn't matter?
That's a very, very nonsensical argument. "going my way" was to keep one of the announced feature of the game. What is there to be upset about ?
"oh no there is more variety that I can still restrict with an option in the galaxy creation, I'm soooo offended !" ?
Are you upset that there is different races in the game too ? If the dev would say "well, too many races, we'll scrap them and only leave humans", would you claim that those for the change would be "upset" if aliens weren't removed ? No, it makes no sense.

@Akka le Vil - I agree with your point a bit more but Stellaris warfare has never been interesting or fun. Check every topic ever written on the subject and there are a million ideas but only one consensus - it ain't that damn good. And never once has praise been levied at the fact it can be fought among three FTL types, in fact that's almost universally been considered one of the problems. Sure, ideas have always been from the viewpoint that there are three, but I've never seen someone state that was the "good part". So yeah, if this change is the foundation on which Stellaris grows a more focused and interesting game, I'm on board.
Stellaris warfare is bad : yes.
FTL are considered a problem : no.

Nobody is saying that Stellaris warfare is good. What is said is :
- Restricting to one FTL method is not a good way to fix the warfare.
- It's actually making warfare more boring.
The main problems aren't linked to FTL methods, they are linked to a simplistic warfare design (no supplies, no tactics, fleet are the only noticeable source of military power, numbers trump all). Everything in warfare can be fixed without touching the FTL methods.
In fact, so far the changes are only making the problems worse (more emphasis on concentration of forces). If Paradox fixes the problem, it will be something ELSE than destruction of FTL methods. It's simply a different aspect, which is somehow conflated because Wiz focused on the "I want a chokepoint" problem, which is NOT relevant.
 
Last edited:

Wolffox

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Yes, as it is with non-warp speed without any way to maneuver (see Voyager program). You should understand that average distance between asteroids is ~10k km or even more, and average asteroid is only several meters in diameter. Go calculate % of impact chance.

you do know that all asteroids field are not the same that there are some that are very dense
 

Silvanus

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I like the idea. It will fix nearly all the Problems that warfare had in stellaris + add little tactical extras like the modfication in jump drives. So great decision!

But I have ONE BIG concern. Dear Dev's please look out. These changes are usefull and enhance the gamplay, but nearly everything sounds like the game "Sins of a Solar Empire". Stellaris and Sins are both great games, but I like the differences! So please look out not to get to close to the Sins game.

And one smaller thing. Don't call the Jump Drive and Warp drive things in a context with wormholes. That feels a little unnatural. I'm not a physicist that discusses the real meaning of that concept, but it feels a little odd in that context. But maybe I'm wrong?! then tell me please why :)

Thank you for your great work!
Greetings
 
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