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Stellaris Dev Diary #85: Decadence and Ascension Path Changes

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary is the last dev diary for the 1.8 'Čapek' update, and will be going over the introduction of Awakened Empire Decadence and some changes coming to the three Ascension Paths and Megastructures. Decadence is a free feature in the 1.8 update, while the Ascension Path and Megastructure changes require the Utopia expansion.

Awakened Empire Decadence
Awakened Empires were added to the game as a way of throwing a new challenge at the player in the late-game. They are intended to be formidable foes, and only the absolutely most powerful player empires are meant to be able to take them on alone. However, this could lead to an unintended game state where the Awakened Empire had conquered or subjugated all regular empires and effectively 'won', with the player being stuck as an AE subject until the end of time. In order to address this, we've added a new mechanic called Decadence for Awakened Empires. Decadence is effectively a meter, going from 0 to 100, that starts filling up for Awakened Empires once a certain amount of time has passed since awakening. The larger they are (both in terms of owned planets and subjugated empires), the faster it builds up. Decadence reduces Awakened Empire resource income and fleet power, and also increases the rebelliousness of their subjects, and has very large penalties at high levels of Decadence. What this means it that while an Awakened Empire might start very strong, and grow even stronger as they expand, that very expansion will eventually turn into decline, until they're weakened to the point where the rest of the galaxy can rebel and overthrow them - if you end up their subject, you just have to be patient, build up your forces, and wait for the right moment to take back your freedom. Awakened Empires have also been changed so that they prefer to subjugate other empires (though still taking some planets as well) to conquering them outright, so there should always be a collection of subjects chafing under the precursor yoke and biding their time.
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Ascension Path Changes
One of the most loved features in Utopia is the Ascension Paths - the ability to choose an 'end goal' for your empire and species in the form of Psionic, Synthetic or Biological Ascension. However, the decision to restrict the Psionic and Synthetic paths based on ethics was less popular, and though I think the reasoning for it is sound (making ethics more diverse), this is a case where I think there is a valid case to say that balance should take a step back in favor of letting the player decide the path or their own empire. For this reason, we've lifted the Spiritualist-only restriction on psionics and have opened up for Spiritualists to research robotics and synthetically ascend. We have also removed the Materialist-only restriction on AI Citizen Rights.

To compensate for this loss, Spiritualists have received a buff in the form of stronger Temples, and Materialists have been given a new living standard called 'Academic Privilege' that boosts happiness and research output at the cost of more consumer goods. However, though we've lifted the hard restriction, the impact of the ascension paths on ethics attraction and faction happiness remain. This means that, for example, a Spiritualist empire that decides to Synthetically Ascend will have significant troubles with unhappy factions and materialist ethics drift, and similarly, the pursuit of Psionics will cause increased Spiritualist attraction and the likely creation of a strong Spiritualist faction.

In addition to these more general changes, there's a few more path-specific changes and additions:
Psionic: Buffed traits and Psi Corps building, and added an alert to tell you when the Shroud is ready for use. Additionally, psionically awakening other species in your empire now happens more often.
Synthetic: Added the ability to assimilate new biological pops into synthetic bodies, and the addition of robomodding significantly buffs this path. Synthetic and Cyborg leader traits were nerfed a bit to compensate.
Biological: Increased the total trait points by 1, and reduced the cost of advanced traits such as Robust.
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Megastructure Changes
The headline feature of Utopia was the Megastructures, massive constructions requiring tens of thousands of minerals and decades to construct. A frequent criticism we have received for the Megastructures is that they simply do not feel significant enough, with comments on how the Dyson Sphere should realistically be producing millions of energy, and so on. We've made some changes in 1.8 that we hope will address some of these complaints, though I want to preface this by saying that Megastructures are not and will never be 'realistic', nor is Stellaris meant to be a realistic game in the first place. However, they are meant to feel impressive and special, and when a handful of Habitats with solar power processors can match a Dyson Sphere in output, that impressiveness tends to fade, no matter whether it's actually balanced or not.

For this reason, we have decided to make a change to the Dyson Sphere and Science Nexus. Both of these Megastructures have been majorly buffed, with a finished Dyson Sphere now producing 1000 energy and a fully upgraded Science Nexus outputting a total of ~750 science. However, they have been changed so that each empire can now only build one of each, similar to the Sentry Array. This means that they can be very powerful without having to massively increase the build time or cost to prevent them from simply being spammed. Ringworlds have not been changed, and can be built in any number you want, indirectly buffing the effectiveness of the Circle of Life perk.

Additionally, we've made a tweak to the Master Builders perk. This perk, when taken, will now give you the Mega-Engineering technology if you do not already have it, similar to how World Shaper gives Atmospheric Manipulation and Mastery of Nature gives blocker techs. This allows for reliable access to Mega-Engineering for empires that want to focus on Megastructure construction.
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That's all for today! Next week we'll post the full patch notes for 1.8 and Synthetic Dawn. See you then!
 
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in any case, to impose that every empire can build a single megastructure does not prevent one from gaining more: can conquer them. hoped that you will find a better solution in the future
How is that artificial barrier any different from artificially limiting empires to 5 Art Monuments from the Artists.
 
That's a decent chunk of science. If built early enough, you could double or triple your research speed even if you are running a hard core materialist empire.
What do you consider "early enough"?
What kind of state do you imagine your empire to be in that it's even theoretically possible to build it and still make a difference?

No matter how I twist or turn it, 60 years into the game, long before the time I'm able to afford even just the 40k you need to repair a broken one, I'm already generating 2k+ research.

80 years into the game where I can realistically afford to repair or build one, I already generate almost 6k research.
And if I do start it at that moment, then by the time it's repaired (10 years) i'll be generating 9k research or close to 14k by the time it's built (25 years).

Yes, you're right, if built early enough, it's a great advantage. But short of using console commands to generate that amount of minerals, you'll never actually get it quickly enough for that thing to ever matter, especially now that you're prevented from having more than one (on top of only being allowed to build one megastructure at a time).
Except for habitats, which have neither of these limitations, all the other megastructures are expensive gimmicks which were probably good for marketing purposes, but of little use for anything else in the game.
 
80 years into the game where I can realistically afford to repair or build one, I already generate almost 6k research.
And if I do start it at that moment, then by the time it's repaired (10 years) i'll be generating 9k research or close to 14k by the time it's built (25 years).

Under these conditions, it's not as much science as I made it out to be. I concede that.

I've been running a lot of low tech empires lately, so 750 science in each categories seems like a lot at the 100 year mark for something that uses no POPs.
 
Cheers for the DD Wiz :D. More good stuff imo (am a big fan of removing hard choices (where sensible, like in this case) and replacing them with appropriate maluses but if someone (or a on-the-edge-of-the-probability-curve AI - think a Stellaris version of Kim Jong-un) wants to do something kooky to spice things up (but also possibly cause themselves all sorts of trouble), that can be very interesting gameplay :).

Megastructure tech change (getting it through the perk) also very good. The randomness of the tech meant that at the very least I tended not to focus on that path, but rather built them 'if it came up', which doesn't feel as epic as striving for it :).

I'm not totally sure about the hard limit on dyson spheres and sciencce nexus (or the sentry array), but a limit at least in the short term makes sense. Maybe in the longer term, if some kind of soft penalty could be applied instead (too many dyson spheres runs the risk of doing funny things with the structure of the galaxy maybe? Too many science nexuses runs the risk of the scientific community developing its own identify, forming a faction and revolting? Just random thoughts, but something like that) that were 'playable' (could be influenced but never fully controlled) might be cool?

I just realized that I forgot to talk about the changes to Megastructures in 1.8. I will be updating the OP in a little bit to add this info.

If this wasn't a sign you needed to make them more mega nothing was :p.

Immersion != realism. Immersion is important, realism is not.

Totally agree that Immersion != realism. However, they are correlated with each other, so it's not a binary "realism is worthless" as a certain amount of "realism"* means you get better immersion. If the default colour for 'space', for example, was hot pink, it would likely reduce immersion because space isn't (in general) hot pink, not because the Stellaris playerbase is more or less in favour of the colour :). Thus, say, a hard limit on dyson spheres is a bit un-immersive, because there's no in-lore or in-science (as much as we know how a dyson sphere would work, lol) reason for there to be one.

* Although in Stellaris, you've got a much freer hand here than your average PDS game! I'm a little surprised it's come up here.
 
Changes overall seem good.

I really love this though - no more relying on RNG for Mega-Engineering.

Additionally, we've made a tweak to the Master Builders perk. This perk, when taken, will now give you the Mega-Engineering technology if you do not already have it, similar to how World Shaper gives Atmospheric Manipulation and Mastery of Nature gives blocker techs. This allows for reliable access to Mega-Engineering for empires that want to focus on Megastructure construction.
 
How would this even work? Spiritiualist Synthetics?? What would they worship?

The Allspark?
It's not "religious", it's spiritual. You know, a lot of asian religions actually focused on purity of the spirit, not god's favor?
Exactly; spritualism does not require a deity or worship.
 
In case you're not already aware, you can right-click a tile to open the build menu directly. Still a bit tedious, but one less click compared to left-clicking and clicking the build button. I too would like to see multi-build for buildings though.

Gaia planets will be more likely to have mixed deposits and strategic resources in 1.8, see dev diary #73. I assume ring worlds will work as Gaia planets in that regard, so I guess that could be considered a redeeming feature considering that habitats don't have any deposits at all.
It makes sense for Gaia planets to have no particular advantage for a totally inorganic Machine Empire, but it would be pretty disappointing if habitats and Ring Worlds had no option or ability to buff machines on them (seeing as Gaia is habitability and happiness, neither of which affect Machine Empires, and habitats only get habitability). The Machine Worlds Ascension Perk should give you the opportunity to make and terraform machine-specialised habitats and Ring World segments so their bonuses aren't organic only.
 
All this says is, Biological Ascension is crap and will remain crap. Don't take it!

1. Biological Ascension still lacks Leader boni both Synthethic and Psionic have (15% fire rate/Evasion respectively), the happiness boost, 10% more research etc.
2. Biological Ascension also isn't that great in terms of pop output. Take energy for example. A psionic Empire can have Thrifty aswell, Synthethics get 20% instead of 15%. The dedicated bio workers at best draw even, at worst lose in most fields. Atop of lacking the other boni the ascension paths have.

The only time they tend to be "decent" is when stacking mineral boni. Something once again Psionic Empires can do aswell for the most part. Even then an Industrious + Very Strong pop will only beat Synths by 5% output. Nerve stapled, which forces one to pretty much micro manage every single damn planet, have more than one pop type per planet etc pushes that up to 15%.

So Bio Ascension gives up massive leader boni, other goodies, special techs, for an at maximum 15% mineral boost as it currently stands.



Now you might say; "But they add one more point and lower the cost of some of the less picked alternatives!". Exactly and it doesn't change a single goddamn thing. Because even if you can give your pops strong, thrifty and industrious it doesn't change a goddamn thing. The boni per building remain THE EXACT SAME. A single pop cannot work more than one building. So it matters not and it does not address the lack of leader boni the other two ascension paths gain.

They mention Robust here and that one, will still be pretty damn terrible. If longevity was the goal then Venerable is a vastly superior alternative. One that can be picked by Synthethic pops too (or it's smaller brother) and that does not stack up to the immortality of Synths. The habitability bonus would be usefull early on but is neglibel later. Especially since we can terraform colonized worlds now anyway.

Erudite is basically the Synth 20% research output bonus. A trait that eats up half your pool. Combine it with Industrious, Strong and Thrifty and you just made worse Synths. Congratulations.

Fertile is the only real "good" one. However once a planet is filled it stops being good and is best off removed.

Nerve Stapled is as mentioned further up extremely micro intensive and allows you stacked with all the other boni the same advantage industrious would give you over non industrious basic pops when stacking up to Synths.

Delicious, yeah. Come on.


I can already here the stomping of the angry people telling me "how wrong I am" and that "you can totaly min max" ignoring that even when min maxing bio ascension pops lose badly against Synthethic pops in most regards and how good they are against Psionic ones depends un how the Psionic ones have been optimized. All while ignoring the other things Bio ascension gives up. Before they will storm off in a huff to go back to play Psionic and Synthethic ascension respectively ignoring Bio entirely.
 
I don't like the restriction to only one each of the Dyson Spheres and Science Nexi. I would appreciate the general buff, but I don't need it so high if that means an arbitrary restriction on how many I can have.
 
I'm not a big fan of Dyson Sphere's and Science Nexus's getting changed, they were amazing as they were just had to be selective at where to put them and were great if there wasn't a lot of worlds to build habitats on. I always used several of them to power my Synthetic empires as it was more effective than habitats and such.
 
Does decadence show up anywhere in the interface?
 
Good question. It doesn't seem to be in the screenshot from this dev diary. But maybe it shows when you hover the cursor over the FE's relative strength.
Frankly, I would gess that in order to find it we will have to hover over tile output of FE planets and calculate it from the penalty they get.
A lot uf useful information about other empires is hidden that way.
 
Here is one major advantage to consider with Dyson Spheres over Habitats.
The Dyson Sphere will produce 1000 energy and will require no pops to maintain it. And it doesn't add to the research penalty either.

With habitats you would require considerable amount of pops to maintain all the power plants. Not to mention a huge research penalty from each habitat and pop.

With a Dyson Sphere built. You could then basically redirect all those pops producing surplus 1000 energy to other tasks. Like mining, research and unity production.
 
So does this mean if you capture broken megastructures you can still repair them? Or if you repair one you are unable to build your own and if you build your own you can no longer repair ones you come across?
 
No offense, but will gene modding *NOT* give some kind of bonus to the leaders? IMHO, those are the strongest bonuses of the bunch. Just take a look at the Synth and Psychic Leader traits: those, by themselves, are worth a LOT of points in terms of species traits...
Gene Ascension has access to "Erudite", which boosts leader levels. It's not *as* big of a benefit as the special traits, but certainly more useful now, since the potential max level cap was increased to 10. Together with some of the other ascension trait nerfs and some misc changes, the gap has gotten quite a bit smaller.

I'm prepared to agree that Dyson spheres have a shot at being competitive with habitats with the new numbers - will have to try them out to know for sure.

However, if a Dyson sphere is merely competitive with habitats rather than superior to them it does lead to the question of why dyson spheres are hard capped but habitats not...
One change that wasn't mentioned (yet), but should be taken into consideration is that Solar Power Plants had their output reduced to 6 (down from 8) and Habitat Labs had their upkeep increased to 3 (up from 2). (Apparently the latter went already live a while back.) :)
 
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One change that wasn't mentioned (yet), but should be taken into consideration is that Solar Power Plants had their output reduced to 6 (down from 8) and Habitat Labs had their upkeep increased to 3 (up from 2). :)
Hab Labs have upkeep of 3. Did you mean 4?
 
Hab Labs have upkeep of 3. Did you mean 4?
No, I meant 3. Gets a bit hard to keep track what changes are already live when you only play the beta branches...