Stellaris Dev Diary #55 - Unity and Traditions

[Swuul]

You assume seem to assume size is the only such factor.

Yes, because that is what Wiz said.

Overall, small harmonious empires will unlock Traditions more quickly than large, expansionistic ones.

Running with the literacy metaphor by @wthree, compare the starting literacy rates and sizes of Belgium and Russia in Vic2 and tell me in which you think will have an easier time reaching high (>85%) literacy levels

I would have no problems with this. Absolutely zero. It makes perfect sense a small unified country focusing on internal matters will have high literacy and high education. Like Harmony, the suggested tradition ("Harmony: Focuses on maintaining a happy and diverse population.").

The problems start when a small unified empire focusing on internal matters can take the Supremacy tradition ("Supremacy: Focuses on growth through military conquest") faster than an empire focusing on growth through military conquest. That would be same is in Vicky2 Haiti having the greatest leaders on Earth because it is a small unified country.

 

[Pipoka]

The HYPE flows.

The HYPE must flow.

 

[Swuul]

The same Wiz that also said this, I assume?


The fact is that you're arguing from a baseless set of assumptions, namely that empire size is the only/most significant factor in unlocking traditions, with *no* knowledge on the actual balance of it. A large empire doing lots of whatever Supremacy actions increase their Unity gain may very well be able to keep up with or surpass a small isolationistic empire. Hell, as far as we know the very first Tradition in the Supremacy tree might as well remove the cost increase for planet size or pop size or whatever metric they've decided to use to measure empire size. The phrase you quoted is talking about "overall", and in that case it is just fine.

You do realise you are contradicting yourself in the above statements?

Wiz said certain Traditions can be used to off-set the malus large empires get to generating Unity. Ok, sounds good until you realise you first have to generate Unity to open the Tradition which off-sets the malus.

If smaller empires can directly go for the Traditions they please, larger ones first have to suffer the lowered Unity generation and finally be able to open the Tradition to off-set the malus Unity generation. How many Tradition will a smaller empire already have unlocked when the larger one is able to open the first meaningful Tradition (considering the first would go to buy off the malus to Unity generation)?

Unless the Unity generation boost for the Tradition off-setting the Unity generation malus is huge (it has to be worth the Unity cost for the Tradition so that Unity is generated at much increased rate to offset the Unity cost for the Tradtion) this will be a double-whammy against larger empires and then it will not be worth it to take it (it would be basically Unity points thrown down the drain). On the other hand, if the Unity generation is huge enough it will be an absolute no-brainer Tradition and everybody will have to go for it first. If everybody goes same railroad anyway (they never take the Tradition or they always take the Tradition), where is the point of such a system for a game?

 

[Swuul]

This is pointless. If you think people directly quoting Wiz and showing you how it goes against what you're saying is "not facing the facts", you're hopeless. Hell, the fact you bring up the Russian files at every opportunity as a means of obliquely threatening people you disagree with and silencing dissent already proves you're not actually interested in discussing this.

You are quoting numbers from the Russian files, and then pretending "oh, but these numbers are easy to get from some other places, which I just don't remember right now, but definitively not the Russian files, definitively absolutely not". I am not threathening anybody, I have absolutely zero power to threathen anybody on these forums. I just gave you a friendly reminder to edit from your posts the numbers you took from the Russian files.

Wiz did say various things affect the speed of Unity generation and I have absolutely no issues with that, no matter how many times you choose to quote posts about Unity. I have no issues with, absolutely zero. It is absolutely right small unified empires should generate Unity faster.

Wiz also said that smaller empires will be the ones unlocking Traditions before larger empires. The smaller empires can unlock even Traditions they have no history of. That is a plain arbitrary penalty on players who do well, and that I do have issues with.

So, could you please stop quoting Wiz saying how and what affects how fast Unity is generated? I have nothing against that, none what so ever. When you get over that, then perhaps we can start wondering why small peaceful empires with no history in certain aspects make them faster at gaining Tradition in those spesific fields than those empires who actually have a history in the field?

When we start to ponder about that, then maybe also continue the thought to the next obvious question: If a Tradition, which needs to be opened with Unity, is needed to gain Unity to open Traditions, where is the logic? Or is this just another arbitrary penalty for the player doing good, to produce a doublewhammy so that players don't try to play well?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

If I were to guess at how this will work, I'd go with the cost of Traditions increasing with empire size, the number of POPs with ethics different to your government's and the number of slaves in your empire. Large, hostile factions would probably affect it too.

Unity, on the other hand, will be gathered per month and will be increased by capital and cultural buildings, much like influence is now. This means that while larger empires with diverse ethics and/or slaves will have a much higher cost per Tradition than a small empire with a homogenous set of ethics.

Tradition costs will likely be reduced by certain Traditions, such as (I imagine) a Domination one that reduces the penalty for larger empires or a Purity one that gives a discount per Xeno purged.

Yeah, seems about right. Not sure how anyone could get "arbitrary penalty" out of that- its a pretty logical system.

 

[Zelius]

If you seriously argue that Wiz said 10 planets is a small empire and 11 planets is large empire, then you loose all credibility

Also, Wiz spesifically said it is a bannable offense to use the WIP numbers from the Russian localisation on these forums, so if I were you, I'd be fast to remove all comments about the numbers seen in the localisation before those in power notice your post...

I have not read whatever has come out of that localisation.
I presented a hypothetical scenario that the 'Unity decreases with size' was brought about through a modifier based on number of planets. You know, like research cost currently is. It is true that in 1.4.1 that 6 planets with 50 pops will have a higher research cost than 5 planets with 50 pops, yes? That's all my analogy needed. I certainly question why anyone would begin to think that I would define a 10% increase as the difference between 'small' and 'large'.

Neither do I. The problem is however that the Unity is used to unlock Traditions, and that is where the problems start. As I have said several times, of course a small empire should be more in unision, but why is a small empire able to unlock Traditions faster than a large empire? Again, if we are talking by Tradition called Harmony, sure, it is very obvious a small empire with high Unity generation *should* unlock that faster (and I mean *way* faster) than a large wide spread empire. But why is the small peaceful empire able to unlock Traditions like Purity or Supremacy faster than larger empires when the small empire has absolute no history of purging or conquesting like the more warfare oriented larger empires? Why? That is pure arbitrary bull-poo and absolutely destroys the whole concept.

Right, and we don't know how it works, but here's a likely possibility: Unity isn't as simple as what you described, and doing actions like purging and conquering will reduce Unity cost for related Traditions. Being locked out of choices is bad design.

 

[Jabby]

"Art for art's sake is an empty phrase. Art for the sake of truth, art for the sake of the good and the beautiful, that is the faith I am searching for."

- George Sand

"To defeat ones enemy one must understand them. Not just their battle tactics, but their history, philosophy, art..."- Grand Admiral Thrawn.

 

[Schimmelpfennig]

^^ Surprised about the downvotes in my post above. I have tried many concepts in ethics, but at the end of the day it's a matter of maths.

No matter if I want to conquer, build federations or establish science domination: whatever ethics has superior growth, it will take you there faster. Also adding happiness to this build, and you will simply outmatch most production bonuses of any ethics and traits altogether.

 

[Ixal]

Those who want more info on traditions might be wise to check my twitter today and next week

Pleas post the traditions which were not "shown" in the livestram
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/traditions-info-from-the-live-stream.997764/


About Standartized Colony Ships, is it possible to standartize the way bonuses and penalties are described (-50% build time instead of +100% build speed)?

 

[grekulf]

What about those who want more info on ascensions?

They will have to wait a bit more!

 

[Haccoude]

We're trying to avoid putting fundamental gameplay systems into the expansions. Creates too much of a headache when we want to iterate on those systems in the future. Don't worry, there will be plenty of paid stuff to talk about when we're ready to talk about it.

Learnt that the hard way from retinues, huh?

Definitely a fan of this new system, loved the policy trees of Civ 5. Almost wish we could get them in EU4 and CK2 (or EU5 and CK3).

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Excelent update! Will tradition impact the AI behaviour? (f.e. taking malevolent ideas from purity/domination escalating hatred from other empires?)

 

[Comrade_Beria]

The last one wasn't because of vacations, it was because we couldn't talk about 1.5 until 1.4 was out. It's really just unfortunate timing that you get two long hiatuses so close together.

Still more holiday time than I get.
Well I think it balances out by the lack of sun and Denmark being nearby.

 

[Gamengervi]

Again, it's been specifically noted that your Traditions relate to your civilization's ethos- if you take Purity traditions with a xenophilic population, they will be Upset.

That wasn't stated in the original post and I haven't read the thread up to this point yet. I will get back to that after I've read the thread. Thanks though.

 

[Swuul]

Unhappy factions, minority species and slaves all increase the cost of adoption Traditions further, though these effects can be offset or even canceled out entirely by adopting the right Traditions for the empire you intend to build. Overall, small harmonious empires will unlock Traditions more quickly than large, expansionistic ones.

Do I understand right, if I play a conquering empire and wish to go for the Supremacy traditions, I am in fact shooting myself in the foot by actually doing the conquests? Ie I would gain Supremacy tradition faster if I actually did play it small and harmonous, not conquer anybody, until one day I have enough tradition of not being a conqueror to declare myself as the Supremacy conqueror of the known universe?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Do I understand right, if I play a conquering empire and wish to go for the Supremacy traditions, I am in fact shooting myself in the foot by actually doing the conquests? Ie I would gain Supremacy tradition faster if I actually did play it small and harmonous, not conquer anybody, until one day I have enough tradition of not being a conqueror to declare myself as the Supremacy conqueror of the known universe?

The point of the mechanic is that massive expansionist empires can utilize it less than smaller ones, yes. It's partly there to help make small ("tall") empires competitive.

 

[Kliwarrior]

Learnt that the hard way from retinues, huh?

Definitely a fan of this new system, loved the policy trees of Civ 5. Almost wish we could get them in EU4 and CK2 (or EU5 and CK3).

In EU4 there are Idea Groups. Not a "tree" but almost the same , with final bonus for the completion..

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

But eh, like I said I find the concept of a planet of monuments kind of odd and strikingly unergonomic when those monuments would block the ability to exploit the planet's natural resources.

I certainly wouldn't expect it early game- but by the time you have the territory and resources to waste a few tiles, it makes total sense to me that your capital world would become the heart of your civilization's culture. Bear in mind, tombs and gardens and such are something tied to autocratic governments- the sort liable to invest in vast vanity projects and shows of their might.

I doubt you can just infinitely spam unity statues- there's probably a small set of unity-boosting structures with different in-universe purposes.

 

[iniudan]

Just curious: Will Fallen Empires get a preset combination of these traditions, or will they start from scratch like all others?

Can't wait for the xenophobic FE to asking ask for slaves from its neighbors.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I was going to make a long post responding to this quote, but I feel like I should wait until I have more information on the different traditions before I go on a tirade. I have to agree with Heretic Saint in that all empires being able to adopt all traditions does seem like it would create a lot of culturally similar empires as opposed to a lot of unique ones, which 'traditions' should do.

But one thing I would like to bring up is another slightly similar game mechanic, and that's policies. Certain policies are restricted by your government's main ethos type. For example, I can't enact slavery policies if my empire's main ethos is individualist and I can't enact an aggressive first contact protocol if my main ethos is pacifist. Why are traditions any different? Unless they're going to change the way policies work, it seems deathly inconstant. If anything, traditions should be more heavily restricted by ethos based simply on their name. Maybe I'm just arguing semantics though.

Even assuming that they didn't tie Traditions to existing ethics (which they may or may not have, since Traditions are apparently one way to encourage a change of empire Ethics), we do know that enacting Traditions counter to your populace's ethics will make them unhappy.

If you're a militant xenophobe empire, enacting a bunch of pacifist or xenophile Traditions in an attempt to pacify your population will probably have the exact oppposite effect.