Stellaris Dev Diary #55 - Unity and Traditions

[garyriley1982]

@Wiz

Will any of the traditions lock out other traditions? I couldn't imagine Harmony and Purity working together for example (outside of Beyond Earth that is!)

Good news though, I was wondering if Banks would be bringing anything like this. I'm assuming it's going through rigourious testing and balancing - my only concern is in Long games that people could max out all trees, it there anything in place for dealing with this (other than the growth penalties?) I know I end up with all the techs by the end of a long game despite growth penalties.

 

[keynes2.0]

One thing we have mentioned as a big priority for Stellaris is adding more empire customization and more ability to roleplay diverse empires. We have also talked about our desire to allow for the existance of 'tall' empires.

How to make tall empires possible

Step 1) Reduce POP growth by a factor of about 10

There you go!

 

[Magdaki]

Well, the bug is back. I'm throwing my wallet at the screen but the DLC and accompanying 1.5 patch just don't seem to be downloading. I really wish you guys would fix that one.

Seriously, I adore this addition.

 

[UberWaffe]

I would like to know your credentials... ...but I have history from 1980's of being an alpha and beta tester...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
With that out of the way.

Anyway, like I mentioned already an umpteenton times, a small group is more in unision, and sure, they should get more Unity points. But if those Unity points are then used to buy Traditions which the small group has absolutely no history of, while the larger group with a long history in the Tradition in question is given a malus, then we are on weak ice. It fails logic, and it is a method to arbitrary punish a player doing well, both which are not signs of good game design.

If we were to assume that a player performing well is rewarded by gaining Unity points faster, while a larger group being slower to adopt a common tradition (social inertia if you will) is represented by the higher cost of buying a tradition. Then is that still failed logic?

(Assuming that the balance is not entirely out of whack of course. I am more asking about the general concept of Unity and Tradition presented here.)

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

So, let's say you have a small empire, you've kept ethics divergence low, you're all xenophobes. You conquer a planet and then decide to purge it. Nobody riots. Mission accomplished.

Now, let's say you're a large empire, and 2/3rds of your pop have drifted from xenophobia. You purge a planet of xenos. Your economy tanks as everyone protests.

See, how the unity of a small empire can provide it with options that would not be available to a larger, less unified empire? That's already in the game!

Now let's say some small empire with big ambitions wants to instill some supremacist feelings in its population. Obviously, that would be easier if it actually went and conquered something, and I think it's very very unlikely that this won't be the case.

But, if it wants to do so before conquering anything... It can have military parades, change its public school curricula, ad campaigns, violent gladiator sports, etc. And if its population are pacifist xenophiles, they'll be pissed at first, but even then it'll eventually take.

Should it be easier to nudge a previously peaceful planet of 10 billion to become more militaristic, or wrangle a trillion across a hundred conquered worlds to be more militaristic? I dunno. Which will actually be easier? I dunno. But neither would offend me.

I mean... If your empire constantly conquers and eats aliens, then yah, that's a tradition. But if every morning, all the children across your empire watch a show about how great it is to conquer and eat aliens, that's also a tradition, which may have similar effects in what it allows your empire to accomplish.

 

[Hapchazzard]

I assume traditions will be limited by ethos? Can't really imagine xenophiles being too keen on the 'purity' traditions...

 

[Gabool]

Unless explicitly said otherwise, free update. Everything detailed in this DD is free.

Sweet! It just sounded like the sort of thing that would be part of a DLC

 

[Red Death]

Yep Civ V was a fun game

Hopefully there will be a limitation of some sort as I'd hate to see late game empires maxing out all or most of the trees every game. Hopefully the tradition acquisition cost will scale sufficiently (to make up for the empire growth) too since 2 points per month for one building when the cost is 40 per tradition is faster than alot of the techs you can research. Here's hoping we don't end up with the optimal strategy of making planets that are literally mausoleums, monuments and government buildings all over

Isaac Asimov would like to have a word with you on planets covered in government buildings.

 

[Kryndude]

Glad to see new feature coming out because as of now the game (still) sort of feels like bland repetition of conquest, resource harvesting, building stuff, and more conquest. Yes there are different governments, ethics, weapon types, etc that are supposed to make the game feel diverse and dynamic, but fundamentally the game boils down to who has the bigger mineral/energy output to afford a bigger doomstack. And no matter which ethics or government type you are the way you collect those resources are all the same and the way you manage your fleets are all the same. Which is the main reason why every game eventually ends up feeling exactly the same. I'm hoping for more ethics unique features and mechanisms to make the game more colorful.

I know not all people feels this way and I expect this comment to get down-voted a lot, but this is my honest opinion of the game. My expectations are high for Stellaris though. I can't wait to see what this game will become after one or two more years of development.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Arbitrary penalties are bad. No matter if they hit large or small empires.

Good thing the throttle factors aren't arbitrary, then, and that they're implemented with very specific reasons in mind both mechanically and thematically.

 

[Milten]

We still can't move food between planets

I still find the idea of using space ships to move millions tons of potato between planets every day bloody ridiculous, but it's going to be that way soon regardless. So complaining about something which already got green light is kinda pointless.

 

[grekulf]

From stream: Unity resource in it's original form is scrapped. Parts of the original idea will be used elsewhere.

What do you mean? That does not sound true. Unity resource works like designed, but a specific tradition tree was replaced and its concepts will be reused elsewhere.

 

[Elothan]

I like this!

 

[Cat Crusade]

Yep Civ V was a fun game

Hopefully there will be a limitation of some sort as I'd hate to see late game empires maxing out all or most of the trees every game. Hopefully the tradition acquisition cost will scale sufficiently (to make up for the empire growth) too since 2 points per month for one building when the cost is 40 per tradition is faster than alot of the techs you can research. Here's hoping we don't end up with the optimal strategy of making planets that are literally mausoleums, monuments and government buildings all over

 

[Ratstranger]

This looks actually way more like National Ideas from EU4. Which is both good and bad thing. Good because it's nice mechanics. Bad because I'm afraid a bit that all Paradox titles will eventually turn into single crazy conglomerate like EUCKVikiHoIStellaris or something :/

 

[Ex Mudder]

Well, since Civ 6 now has casus belli I don't see why not

So long as tech research and traditions don't increase building costs, I'm good.

 

[Swuul]

The point of the mechanic is that massive expansionist empires can utilize it less than smaller ones, yes. It's partly there to help make small ("tall") empires competitive.

Ah, the classic idea that a player has to be penalised by game-design if they do good.

It is one thing to design a game where the player (in whatever game) to face harder and tougher challenges when the player gets stronger. It is a totally different thing to arbitrary give the player penalties with no logical back-ground simply because they are doing well.

If traditions are designed so that there is little or limited effect of what the player has done to tradition vs the player plays it small and harmonious, then we can not talk about a *tradition* if you have actually not engaged in that tradition.

Unity tradition shouldn't be gathered simply by sitting in your home planet, it should be gathered from expanding and purging the other races. How else could it be called a tradition of Unity?

Supremacy tradition shouldn't be gathered simply by sitting in your home planet, it should be gathered from waging wars, hunting pirates and anomalies. How else could it be called a tradition of Supremacy?

Etc, etc.

Now if there was a tradition called "Piety", then I would understand how you can gather that tradition by sitting back and not doing anything. But for anything else?

 

[Milten]

Gotta say it looks tasty, even if a bit "gamey".
Also I don't get why Civ was mentioned so many times when it's clearly EU4 thing.

 

[MN121MN]

The seven Tradition trees are as follows:
-snip-
Domination: Focuses on maintaining control over your population and subjects.
-snip-
Purity: Focuses on strength through homogenity and dominion over other species.

Just a suggestion, but maybe maybe change the name of "Domination", so that people won't get "confused" (as with the case of individual vs communitarian)? IDK, maybe something like "Domination" becomes "Sovereignty", "Governance", or something akin to stewardship.

Especially since, from the description of Purity, ".... and dominion over other species", doesn't this mean purity as an advanced form of domination?

 

[Ingros]

Its a nice Feature but to be honest:
stellaris needs more interaction with other empires but war... we need spies and diplomats to cause revolts... or peaceful seperations ... hell even factions to join nearby empires if they are more like their ethics...
And we need more diplomatic talk... federation or alliance councils.... more internal politics (and not this boring edicts screen etc.)
And what about real trade... not this instant stuff... manual or automatic created trade routes between planets which can be raided by pirates or privateers...
Special raider warships (not aligned to our empire) to raid and destroy enemy bases or capture slaves... even during peace time

When will one of that come?