Stellaris Dev Diary #55 - Unity and Traditions

[Te. Kenzo]

It's similar to EUIV ideas, also how this should favourite tall empires? It's good to don't use precious resource slots to build unity monuments? Also if I have a tradition for expansionism, instead to be taller it's not better to burn my rivals colonizing more quickly?

 

[Swuul]

Good thing the throttle factors aren't arbitrary, then, and that they're implemented with very specific reasons in mind both mechanically and thematically.

I am not sure what you are refering to. But PDOX games have a well-established history on how to make games more challenging if you grow too fast. Be it increased corruption as seen in EU:Rome, be it friction between nationalities as in Vicky2, be it demesne juggling like in CK2, etc.

This Unity -> Tradition is quite comparable at how fast you gain leaders or diplomats in Vicky2. If we took the Unity -> Tradition to Vicky, Haiti would have the greatest military leaders and the smoothest diplomats in the world, because as a small peaceful country it would have high Unity generation and thus could pick the suitable Traditions with Unity. Meanwhile a Prussia which turned to Germany through diplomacy and wars would have lousy diplomats and lousy generals, because obviously a rapidly expanding country will have low Unity and thus can't pick up the required Traditions for good diplomats or leaders.

A game with such a mechanic would just stink, wouldn't it?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I am not sure what you are refering to. But PDOX games have a well-established history on how to make games more challenging if you grow too fast. Be it increased corruption as seen in EU:Rome, be it friction between nationalities as in Vicky2, be it demesne juggling like in CK2, etc.

This Unity -> Tradition is quite comparable at how fast you gain leaders or diplomats in Vicky2. If we took the Unity -> Tradition to Vicky, Haiti would have the greatest military leaders and the smoothest diplomats in the world, because as a small peaceful country it would have high Unity generation and thus could pick the suitable Traditions with Unity. Meanwhile a Prussia which turned to Germany through diplomacy and wars would have lousy diplomats and lousy generals, because obviously a rapidly expanding country will have low Unity and thus can't pick up the required Traditions for good diplomats or leaders.

A game with such a mechanic would just stink, wouldn't it?

Because you toooooootally know exactly how the system is balanced, how viable filling any given tree is, what the traits inside the tree do re: benefits, how those benefits compare in utility for small vs. large empires...

Take off your grump goggles, maybe.

 

[modernwhofan]

Sid Meiers Stellaris?
I am okay with this.

 

[wthree]

I am not sure what you are refering to. But PDOX games have a well-established history on how to make games more challenging if you grow too fast. Be it increased corruption as seen in EU:Rome, be it friction between nationalities as in Vicky2, be it demesne juggling like in CK2, etc.

This Unity -> Tradition is quite comparable at how fast you gain leaders or diplomats in Vicky2. If we took the Unity -> Tradition to Vicky, Haiti would have the greatest military leaders and the smoothest diplomats in the world, because as a small peaceful country it would have high Unity generation and thus could pick the suitable Traditions with Unity. Meanwhile a Prussia which turned to Germany through diplomacy and wars would have lousy diplomats and lousy generals, because obviously a rapidly expanding country will have low Unity and thus can't pick up the required Traditions for good diplomats or leaders.

A game with such a mechanic would just stink, wouldn't it?

While it's impossible to tell at the moment, from the looks of it (and from previous paradox games) Unity will be related to how consolidated your empire is. So if it's just an absolute mess, you'll have low unity, while if it runs effectively you'll have high unity. The point being that a smaller empire is easier to consolidate, but it's still possible to do it effectively in a larger one.

Think literacy/industrialization in Vicky 2.

 

[Chaos_TLW]

I am not sure what you are refering to. But PDOX games have a well-established history on how to make games more challenging if you grow too fast. Be it increased corruption as seen in EU:Rome, be it friction between nationalities as in Vicky2, be it demesne juggling like in CK2, etc.

This Unity -> Tradition is quite comparable at how fast you gain leaders or diplomats in Vicky2. If we took the Unity -> Tradition to Vicky, Haiti would have the greatest military leaders and the smoothest diplomats in the world, because as a small peaceful country it would have high Unity generation and thus could pick the suitable Traditions with Unity. Meanwhile a Prussia which turned to Germany through diplomacy and wars would have lousy diplomats and lousy generals, because obviously a rapidly expanding country will have low Unity and thus can't pick up the required Traditions for good diplomats or leaders.

A game with such a mechanic would just stink, wouldn't it?

You assume seem to assume size is the only such factor. No reason to believe it is so, in fact it was quite explicitely stated the opposite. I'd imagine homogeneity of your population, speed of expansion, means of expansion, actions such as purging, enslaving, declaring war, forming feds, etc all influence the generation of Unity according to state ethos. Size only seems to model *cost* of unlocking new Traditions, which is a reasonable way to model societal and bureaucratic inertia.

Running with the literacy metaphor by @wthree, compare the starting literacy rates and sizes of Belgium and Russia in Vic2 and tell me in which you think will have an easier time reaching high (>85%) literacy levels

 

[OBRkenobi]

The hype is real!

 

[Orinsul]

Will they be reversible at a cost? Like in EU3 or permanent like EU4?

 

[Tvarog]

I hope it will be grate mid-game mechanics, because now mid-game is a little bit booring. Building some back story if well implemented could do miracles.

 

[runrun]

"Unity" is the resource that lets you buy traditions. It isn't a tradition itself. You accumulate Unity over time, with a few ways to increase it based on structures and certain unlocked Traditions. You can unlock traditions by spending Unity, and the cost to unlock traditions increases based on multiple factors- including how far you've spread yourself across the galaxy (because a larger empire is less unified).

Individualistic conception of things. The gaia civilization by isaac asimov forms a totally unified "galaxia".
gaia is one, gaia is everything. gaia is peaceful. no purge, no war to conquer galaxy
My only regret in this game is to not be able to extand psionism to built an empire like that.
psionism is like stargate, it s a discovery. i see it like a trait like 2nd fundation.

 

[CaptainBinary]

Ascension Perks, Oooo tantalizing.

 

[jose2534]

@Wiz I have a question:

Is there any other ways to burn unity rather than purchasing traditions?
Because I can see a moment way in the late game when an empire, AI or player controlled, has so much Unity that has to expend it in a tradition or just have it there doing nothing, and lets suppose that that tradition is of the opposite ethos, obviously I will not want, nor the AI, unlock that. Or are we going to have an AI empire that goes buying all the traditions until there is nothing in the late game? Having because of these some Fanatic Xenophiles that, suddenly, go on and complete the "Purity" traditions because there was no other way to expend the new resource.
Or are we going to have some sort of "edicts" to burn the excess of unity, or it is going to be in the red more often than in the green? (I like the idea of being a heavy unity producer, a really concentrated spiritualist nation for example)
Or is there going to be a really big difference in price after each tradition is purchase, making it almost impossible to complete a third or four tradition?
Thank you for your time and keep up with the good work

 

[Daimonin]

@Wiz A question on the pop ethos change for 1.5

Yeah I know this subject was the previous diary, but this one is current so:
Will the populations ethos drift take into consideration neighboring empires? Example, if I drop a colony very far from my own militaristic empires core, but right next to a pacifist empires home planet, will the pops in that colony be "pulled" towards the pacifist ethos, since the pacifist empire is much closer to them then the rest of mine?

 

[mergele]

A cliffhanger on a DD, really?

 

[Swuul]

You assume seem to assume size is the only such factor.

Yes, because that is what Wiz said.

Overall, small harmonious empires will unlock Traditions more quickly than large, expansionistic ones.

Running with the literacy metaphor by @wthree, compare the starting literacy rates and sizes of Belgium and Russia in Vic2 and tell me in which you think will have an easier time reaching high (>85%) literacy levels

I would have no problems with this. Absolutely zero. It makes perfect sense a small unified country focusing on internal matters will have high literacy and high education. Like Harmony, the suggested tradition ("Harmony: Focuses on maintaining a happy and diverse population.").

The problems start when a small unified empire focusing on internal matters can take the Supremacy tradition ("Supremacy: Focuses on growth through military conquest") faster than an empire focusing on growth through military conquest. That would be same is in Vicky2 Haiti having the greatest leaders on Earth because it is a small unified country.

 

[Xoatl]

Even assuming that they didn't tie Traditions to existing ethics (which they may or may not have, since Traditions are apparently one way to encourage a change of empire Ethics), we do know that enacting Traditions counter to your populace's ethics will make them unhappy.

If you're a militant xenophobe empire, enacting a bunch of pacifist or xenophile Traditions in an attempt to pacify your population will probably have the exact oppposite effect.

I have to say that traditions should be restricted based on governing ethics. But your governing ethics may change over time based on who gets into power and possibly as a result of powerful factions (CK2 style where factions with a certain degree of relative strength ask for a shift in one of the three slots of governing ethics, this too would be restricted by your government type, so certain factions would be more likely to start a rebellion for government change in order to continue shifting the ethics change they want). This way if your xenophile government (with harmony traditions) changes to xenophobe the new xenophobe POPs get a happiness penalty for having harmony traditions unlocked. However you can refund all of the Harmony levels (and lock harmony again) for some of the unity points. There would be traditions that are open because of an absence of an ethic that may change fairly early in the game as a result. This would leave it open for the player and possibly the AI if they can evaluate the pros/cons correctly. So you might want to keep the harmony traditions your empire picked up before it became a xenophobe slaver because you have several integrated species you want to keep happy despite the happiness penalty to other POPs. Or you could choose to refund them and go for other traditions.

It's a tough call though, I feel the direct rip of social policies is shallow and lacking something. Perhaps it should be based on actions, enslaving alien POPs give a small unity discount on domination traditions. The active traditions may also influence ethic changes, avoiding some tradition choices and going deeper in others would lower or boost ethic attractions.

 

[Milten]

While it's impossible to tell at the moment, from the looks of it (and from previous paradox games) Unity will be related to how consolidated your empire is. So if it's just an absolute mess, you'll have low unity, while if it runs effectively you'll have high unity. The point being that a smaller empire is easier to consolidate, but it's still possible to do it effectively in a larger one.

Think literacy/industrialization in Vicky 2.

Perhaps I'm derping again, but I don't see what you see. It looks pretty much like Bird Mana - gather 100 unity points, unlock tradition perk, your unity is 0 again.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Yes, because that is what Wiz said.

Ignoring the bit that comes immediately prior to what you quoted, sure.

Unhappy factions, minority species and slaves all increase the cost of adoption Traditions further, though these effects can be offset or even canceled out entirely by adopting the right Traditions for the empire you intend to build.

That sure sounds like a lot more influencing factors than "just" size...

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I have to say that traditions should be restricted based on governing ethics.

As per the OP:

Which Traditions you unlock also has a significant impact on the ethics of your population, and so can be a useful tool to either strengthen your existing empire ethics or further a planned empire-wide shift towards a different set of ethics altogether.

Which implies you can take Traditions counter to your populace's ethics. It'll just make them really unhappy until they're made to change those ethics based on all influencing factors- so from what we know, you could have a VERY strongly pacifist empire, and taking warmonger Traditions might not be enough to push those pacifist pops over, but taking the Traditions as part of a larger effort to encourage the pops to shift would be viable.

 

[I am Sovereign]

Will they be reversible at a cost? Like in EU3 or permanent like EU4?

Good question.
I hope @Wiz will answer it.

I would like to see them reversible for some high costs of course.