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Stellaris Dev Diary #45 - Ship Balance

Hello everyone!

Today we will go into the sixth part in a multi-part dev diary about the 'Heinlein' 1.3 update and accompanying (unannounced) content DLC. The topic of today's dev diary is the changes to ship roles and ship balance.

Ship Roles
The new design intends to give each ship a more unique combat role. Some ships will be defensive, while others will be more offensive.

Corvettes
Small and aggressive ships with high evasion that can be equipped with torpedoess. They will be very effective against large ships like battleships due to their high evasion and access to torpedoes. They have very low armor, but a very high chance to evade.

Destroyers
Defensive ships that are designed to counter corvettes, which is why they receive an innate +10 bonus to Tracking. They can be equipped with point-defense weapons, to shoot down the torpedoes fired by corvettes. They have moderate armor, and a moderate chance to evade.

Cruisers
These aggressive ships should be able to put out a lot of damage, but at the cost of less defense. Cruisers, like corvettes, can also be equipped with torpedoes. But unlike corvettes, they can also be equipped with hangars for strike craft. They have somewhat high armor, and a small chance to evade.

Battleships
The new role for battleships will be durable capital ships that fire at its enemies from a long distance. They are the only ship size that can be equipped with extra large weapons. They have very high armor, but minimal evasion.

upload_2016-9-12_14-53-30.png


Evasion, Tracking & Armor
A new feature in the Heinlein patch will be the Tracking stat. Each weapon will have a Tracking value that determines how effective they are against ships with high evasion. Every point of Tracking reduces the target’s chance to evade that attack by the same amount. Small weapons will have high Tracking, medium weapons will have medium Tracking, and large weapons will have minimal Tracking.

This means that large weapons - with a poor Tracking value - will still be very effective against large ships like cruisers or battleships, but almost useless against small ships like corvettes due to their high evasion.

The armor penetration of weapons has also been rebalanced so that large weapons have a much higher armor penetration values than smaller weapons.

In effect, this means that small weapons are good at shooting at small ships, while large weapons are good at shooting at large ships.

Another note is that missile weapons no longer ignore evasion, and can be evaded like normal. Most missiles, however, will have a very high Tracking value.

upload_2016-9-12_14-53-50.png


New Slots
Something new in the Heinlein patch will be the introduction of a couple of new slot types.

x.png

The extra large slot will contain powerful spinal-mounted weapons that are designed to target and take out enemy capital ships. Only Battleships will have a ship section with this weapon slot.

t.png

The torpedo slot, as evident by its name, will hold torpedoes. Torpedoes are slow firing weapons that deal massive damage, perfect for taking down larger ships. Unlike other missiles, however, torpedoes do not have good Tracking, which means they are very ineffective against ships with high evasion, such as corvettes or destroyers.

a_ux.png

The auxiliary slot will hold components that have ship-wide effects. Crystal-Forged Armor, Shield Capacitors and Regenerative Hull Tissue are examples of components that will now be equipped in this slot.

pd.png

Point-defense weapons now have its own slot size. The idea is that you should need to specialize some ships into countering enemy torpedoes

upload_2016-9-12_14-53-13.png


Major weapon rebalancing
Most weapons have been rebalanced to better suit the new design.

That's all for this week! Join us again next monday when we’ll be back with another dev diary!
 
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Doomstacks are not there because of roles. They are there because more ships = win, plain and simple. You seem to have shifted the goalposts in your argument and now are applying a non sequiter fallacy. The design for the roles was not meant to fix doomstacks but to fix a single ship type from becoming the ONLY ship type you needed or wanted.

You now are claiming this change is bad because it doesn't stop doomstacks. Well guess what YOUR alternative won't stop doomstacks either. It is a different problem and requires a different solution. Roles fix the problem of a single ship being OP against all other types of ships.
Four ship roles won't fix situation either. I said it already - deviating from having all ship types will punish players. In MOO2you could build boarding vessels, torpedo vessels, structure-blasting vessels, beam ships, and much more variations. In Stellaris all you can do is to upgrade your doomstack to latest weapon\system and send them to the grind. Ship roles won't make things better. i'll add more micromanagement
 
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Except I didn't just say it was a fallacy but instead pointed out the actual issue in their argument that was a fallacy and then answered why it was wrong. So I agree just saying "fallacy" does nothing. One must state what the fallacy was and why it is a fallacy.

In this case the fallacy was saying the design was bad because it doesn't solve doomstacks. I agree it doesn't but then the design wasn't meant to. It was instead meant to do away with one ship type is OP and to show the player that fleet combos are better then single ship type fleets.

I'm not saying your critique of the person you were replying to was wrong. Quite the opposite.

I just get annoyed at people constantly bringing up fallacies, because those aren't the important reasons why the other person is wrong. It doesn't really add much to a discussion to be able to name the fallacy someone is committing.
 
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Four ship roles won't fix situation either. I said it already - deviating from having all ship types will punish players. In MOO2you could build boarding vessels, torpedo vessels, structure-blasting vessels, beam ships, and much more variations. In Stellaris all you can do is to upgrade your doomstack to latest weapon\system and send them to the grind. Ship roles won't make things better. i'll add more micromanagement

Please point to the sentence or line where anyone claims this fixes doomstacks? No one is claiming it fixes them. That is a separate issue.

But it does solve one problem. If your doomstack is 100% corvettes and mine is 100% BB's you'll win. And if mine is 100% DD's I'll win.

So just having a doomstakc doesn't guarantee a win. It does require the right COMBINATION doomstack to win.
 
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Please point to the sentence or line where anyone claims this fixes doomstacks? No one is claiming it fixes them. That is a separate issue.
Dommstacks are THE poblem with Stellaris warfare, that's why I mentioned it. Ships roles are a non-issue and the last problem Stellaris should be dealing with
 
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Because clearly it's impossible that anyone could actually agree with the changes. Everyone must be part of the Great Paradox Conspiracy where they've brainwashed us into blindly agreeing with everything they say.

Luckily we had you here to wake us sheeple up from our stupor. All hail FurorGermanicus! Savior of the Paradox forums! A glorious age of flawless game development, led by our new messiah, awaits!

Grow up.
You aren't wrong when you say that we live in a brainwashed world, but thats quite another cup of tea ;).
I just wanted to tell the people that stellaris has more important construction zones.
Just wait for the next dlc's, good job guys, really.
 
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I think this is the key point. There isn't much stopping you from making a battleship that can shoot down corvettes, it just isn't optimal. That's not taking away player choice. I agree though that some sort of military doctrine would be nice.

"Small ship doctrine" - Corvettes and fighters have +10 evasion
"Ship of the Line" - Battleships cost 80% maintenance
"One shot, one kill" - +20 tracking on destroyers
etc. etc.
You could modify AI behavior along doctrins, aka. under the "small ship doctrin", the AI will favor hit-and-run tactics and quick strikes on planets, mining-/research stations, trade lanes (if/when included) and supply lines (if/when included). AI with the "ship of the line" doctrin however should try to force the decision in direct combat.
 
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I hope the Devs intend to improve ship AI, or even give us direct control over a class of ship's behavior. If I need a certain class of ship to defend battleships against corvettes, I need those ships to stay with the battleships. Currently the smaller ships are inherently faster and seem to charge at the enemy at top speed regardless of their battle computer. Ideally we should also be able to issue commands mid-battle. It'll be rage-inducing to enter battle against a fleet, have the anti-corvette/anti-torpedo screen fly out ahead, only to have a second fleet attack from behind and obliterate your battleships with its corvettes because you couldn't issue new commands to your own ships.

I also think weapon tracking and hit chance needs to factor range-to-target into the equation. EVE Online players will be familiar with why this is important. A large, slow turret might have trouble hitting a fast-moving corvette up close, but if that corvette is off in the distance it's relative motion is much lower.
 
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Dommstacks are THE poblem with Stellaris warfare, that's why I mentioned it. Ships roles are a non-issue and the last problem Stellaris should be dealing with

Yes but this DD and thread doesn't deal with it. Might as well raise some problem like salvery here too. Wait for the dev's to responf to doomstacks and then your post would be relevant.
 
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Yes but this DD and thread doesn't deal with it. Might as well raise some problem like salvery here too. Wait for the dev's to responf to doomstacks and then your post would be relevant.

To be honest I'm starting to think it will be dealt with in 1.4 or 1.5.
 

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Yes but this DD and thread doesn't deal with it. Might as well raise some problem like salvery here too. Wait for the dev's to responf to doomstacks and then your post would be relevant.
It is relevant. Old 10 destroyers are the same as upcoming compositions, ex.1 BB-2CL-3DD-5COR, just more clicks. Single ship fleets are better and more interesting, than ships with roles if doomstacks are fixed in any way.
 
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I KNOW that I will not ever build a single fleet that will not have all four types of ships because not having any of four ship types will put me at a disadvantage. It's counterproductive.

Say you have a fleet with construction cost split evenly between all four types. Along comes an opponent with the cost split evenly between destroyers, cruisers and battleships. It's not clear to me at all that you are going to win that battle. You've invested in destroyers that are set up to kill corvettes and he has no corvettes. That's wasted investment. He has enough destroyers to block your corvettes and he has the advantage in capital ship firepower.

Maybe knowing his design, knowing that he has no corvettes, you decide you can do without corvettes and destroyers. Now he's the one who's wasted resources investing in destroyers, and you have the overall firepower advantage. But wait, maybe he knows you aren't building corvettes or destroyers so he is free to build a fleet of torpedo corvettes, and wrecks you. Then you build a fleet of only destroyers and wreck him, etc, etc.
 
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To be honest I'm starting to think it will be dealt with in 1.4 or 1.5.

Doomstacks are a hard issue to actually solve. You can have hard cap limits, ala logistic caps from other games. You can have a reduction in efficiency for a larger fleet with maybe admiral stats reducing the penalty. You can limit resources so you simply can't build that many ships. And you can make it so you need lot's of fleets at the same time instead of just one or two.

All of these options have pros and cons and won't please everyone. And there are probably other mechanics or methods to limit doomstacks.

It is relevant. Old 10 destroyers are the same as upcoming compositions, ex.1 BB-2CL-3DD-5COR, just more clicks. Single ship fleets are better and more interesting, than ships with roles if doomstacks are fixed in any way.

No one is claiming it's NOT an issue. It just is not relevant to THIS thread. It is a different problem. It would be like saying it doesn't solve sector ship building. It's a problem but the DD doesn't cover that issue. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
 
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Philthy

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I'm not saying your critique of the person you were replying to was wrong. Quite the opposite.

I just get annoyed at people constantly bringing up fallacies, because those aren't the important reasons why the other person is wrong. It doesn't really add much to a discussion to be able to name the fallacy someone is committing.
This is what I was agreeing with, for the record, rather than a particular argument in the thread.
 

Peter Ebbesen

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I note there is a "filter by size slot" icon in the screenshot.. and that it still lists armours 1-5 for you to choose, taking up valuable screen real estate and causing premature player scrolling to get to interesting stuff further down in the list.

Since you guys have started to improve on the UI in small ways, Wiz, could you please, please, PLEASE, also add a filter in the ship designer to "HIDE OBSOLETE COMPONENTS"? (Alternatively "SHOW.." for reverse functionality depending on desired default.) You know, a filter that when checked only shows the latest module within each category in the list? I.e. highest tier researched shield, highest tier researched armour, highest tier researched laser, highest tier researched plasma weapon, etc etc.

I know I've bugged you lot about this issue before, but it is in a good cause and it still dumbfounds me that such a simple interface improvement that is known from many other games for selections where players almost always want to use the newest and best variants of equipment available to them wasn't part of Stellaris from the start and wasn't added in any of the game updates so far.

There are times when players won't want to use the best of a module type - energy constraints being the primary reason - but they are few and far between compared to the times players select the best of a module type from the list.

Stellaris has several long lists for players to scroll through in order to make choices, something that is only a fun experience if the majority of options on the list are some the player would consider choosing, and this is an obvious case where a simple change would result in players only having to deal with short lists the vast majority of the time when they are designing ships, and having the option of seeing the full list if and when they deemed it necessary.
 
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Philthy

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I note there is a "filter by size slot" icon in the screenshot.. and that it still lists armours 1-5 for you to choose, taking up valuable screen real estate and causing premature player scrolling to get to interesting stuff further down in the list.

Since you guys have started to improve on the UI in small ways, Wiz, could you please, please, PLEASE, also add a filter in the ship designer to "HIDE OBSOLETE COMPONENTS"? You know, a filter that when checked only shows the latest module within each category in the list? I.e. highest tier researched shield, highest tier researched armour, highest tier researched laser, highest tier researched plasma weapon, etc etc.

I know I've bugged you lot about this issue before, but it is in a good cause and it still dumbfounds me that such a simple interface improvement that is known from many other games for selections where players almost always want to use the newest and best variants of equipment available to them wasn't part of Stellaris from the start and wasn't added in any of the game updates so far.

Stellaris is full of long lists for players to scroll through in order to make choices, something that is only a fun experience if the majority of options on the list are some the player would consider choosing, and this is an obvious case where a simple change would result in players only having to deal with short lists the vast majority of the time when they are designing ships.
If it at least let you just open the section you want at any one time.

If "Defense" modules were in one such subtab and "engines + powerplants" were in another, etc. etc.
 
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EntropyAvatar

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Doomstacks are a hard issue to actually solve. You can have hard cap limits, ala logistic caps from other games. You can have a reduction in efficiency for a larger fleet with maybe admiral stats reducing the penalty. You can limit resources so you simply can't build that many ships. And you can make it so you need lot's of fleets at the same time instead of just one or two.

I think they could reduce doomstacks by making it take longer to move between systems, let space battles take some time, but make the sensor range fairly short and the time for an unopposed fleet to do a lot of damage very short. If I think back to SotS, you want to have some defenses at each system because things can pop out of the black and smash your colonies very quickly if unopposed. You put up a defense force to give time for the cavalry to ride to the rescue.
 

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Say you have a fleet with construction cost split evenly between all four types. Along comes an opponent with the cost split evenly between destroyers, cruisers and battleships. It's not clear to me at all that you are going to win that battle. You've invested in destroyers that are set up to kill corvettes and he has no corvettes. That's wasted investment. He has enough destroyers to block your corvettes and he has the advantage in capital ship firepower.
Maybe knowing his design, knowing that he has no corvettes, you decide you can do without corvettes and destroyers. Now he's the one who's wasted resources investing in destroyers, and you have the overall firepower advantage. But wait, maybe he knows you aren't building corvettes or destroyers so he is free to build a fleet of torpedo corvettes, and wrecks you. Then you build a fleet of only destroyers and wreck him, etc, etc.
And you know that in actual game you are surrounded by 3-5 empires and adjusting your fleet every time you fight one is like microing all your holdings on Emeror-level in CKII without vassals. Possible, but no sane player would do it. Everyone goes with fleet, most ready to counter several threats around.
No one is claiming it's NOT an issue. It just is not relevant to THIS thread. It is a different problem. It would be like saying it doesn't solve sector ship building. It's a problem but the DD doesn't cover that issue. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
You asked in your first reply for alternatives. I told you that alternatives for ship roles are not going to fix problems which caused this change - implementation of ship roles in attempt to fix sorry state of Stellaris combat.
 
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I can't help but worry that this is just going to feel more like it's encouraging everyone to play the same way and make space empires feel more generic. Not sure how to fix that though... :(
Currently is basically monoculture fleets+a dash of aura battleships. The best weapon is basically always tachyon lances with the one exception being the unbidden. Maybe with a touch of point defense. At the very least eliminating mono-culture will give more levers to set which is a step in the right direction.

The current state of things in stellaris is a broken mess, so yeah i see that pretty clearly.

Let me put it this way, what is described here look like a improvement over what we currently have. However i'm not sure it's the right kind of improvement and/or enough to make ship design and combat in stellaris interesting.
From a meta game perspective if you replace a one unit killer combination by a diverse fleet killer combination, the issue remain the same : there will eventually be one killer combination.
So yeah it will be more satisfying from a gameplay and eye candy perspective, but it probably won't add that much replayability or depth on the macro game.
There is no guarantee there will be one killer combination. You can very easily have a scenario where every set of choices can be defeated by a different set-up.

Finally, the roles are standard space opera. This isn't Kerbal Space Program.
 
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