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Stellaris Dev Diary #45 - Ship Balance

Hello everyone!

Today we will go into the sixth part in a multi-part dev diary about the 'Heinlein' 1.3 update and accompanying (unannounced) content DLC. The topic of today's dev diary is the changes to ship roles and ship balance.

Ship Roles
The new design intends to give each ship a more unique combat role. Some ships will be defensive, while others will be more offensive.

Corvettes
Small and aggressive ships with high evasion that can be equipped with torpedoess. They will be very effective against large ships like battleships due to their high evasion and access to torpedoes. They have very low armor, but a very high chance to evade.

Destroyers
Defensive ships that are designed to counter corvettes, which is why they receive an innate +10 bonus to Tracking. They can be equipped with point-defense weapons, to shoot down the torpedoes fired by corvettes. They have moderate armor, and a moderate chance to evade.

Cruisers
These aggressive ships should be able to put out a lot of damage, but at the cost of less defense. Cruisers, like corvettes, can also be equipped with torpedoes. But unlike corvettes, they can also be equipped with hangars for strike craft. They have somewhat high armor, and a small chance to evade.

Battleships
The new role for battleships will be durable capital ships that fire at its enemies from a long distance. They are the only ship size that can be equipped with extra large weapons. They have very high armor, but minimal evasion.

upload_2016-9-12_14-53-30.png


Evasion, Tracking & Armor
A new feature in the Heinlein patch will be the Tracking stat. Each weapon will have a Tracking value that determines how effective they are against ships with high evasion. Every point of Tracking reduces the target’s chance to evade that attack by the same amount. Small weapons will have high Tracking, medium weapons will have medium Tracking, and large weapons will have minimal Tracking.

This means that large weapons - with a poor Tracking value - will still be very effective against large ships like cruisers or battleships, but almost useless against small ships like corvettes due to their high evasion.

The armor penetration of weapons has also been rebalanced so that large weapons have a much higher armor penetration values than smaller weapons.

In effect, this means that small weapons are good at shooting at small ships, while large weapons are good at shooting at large ships.

Another note is that missile weapons no longer ignore evasion, and can be evaded like normal. Most missiles, however, will have a very high Tracking value.

upload_2016-9-12_14-53-50.png


New Slots
Something new in the Heinlein patch will be the introduction of a couple of new slot types.

x.png

The extra large slot will contain powerful spinal-mounted weapons that are designed to target and take out enemy capital ships. Only Battleships will have a ship section with this weapon slot.

t.png

The torpedo slot, as evident by its name, will hold torpedoes. Torpedoes are slow firing weapons that deal massive damage, perfect for taking down larger ships. Unlike other missiles, however, torpedoes do not have good Tracking, which means they are very ineffective against ships with high evasion, such as corvettes or destroyers.

a_ux.png

The auxiliary slot will hold components that have ship-wide effects. Crystal-Forged Armor, Shield Capacitors and Regenerative Hull Tissue are examples of components that will now be equipped in this slot.

pd.png

Point-defense weapons now have its own slot size. The idea is that you should need to specialize some ships into countering enemy torpedoes

upload_2016-9-12_14-53-13.png


Major weapon rebalancing
Most weapons have been rebalanced to better suit the new design.

That's all for this week! Join us again next monday when we’ll be back with another dev diary!
 
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And you know that in actual game you are surrounded by 3-5 empires and adjusting your fleet every time you fight one is like microing all your holdings on Emeror-level in CKII without vassals. Possible, but no sane player would do it. Everyone goes with fleet, most ready to counter several threats around.

Well, to the extent that "everyone knows" that a balanced fleet is best, there's not much risk in optimizing your fleet composition and tech choices to win against a balanced fleet. At least until they start to adapt.
 
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Peter Ebbesen

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If it at least let you just open the section you want at any one time.

If "Defense" modules were in one such subtab and "engines + powerplants" were in another, etc. etc.
That's a larger UI change - I don't dare ask for something like that until PDS decides to devote an update to a thorough and much needed UI overhaul. :)
 
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I'm gonna be brutally honest, and I know people will disagree with me, but there shouldn't be size-based tracking issues for large vessels in a space strategy game where the technology exists to allow a RINGWORLD. It makes almost no sense technologically speaking, since even the railguns we have now are meant to track things moving at many times the speed of sound, like ballistic missiles. Nowadays, with terrestrial distances, we can track things that would be a fundamentally-harder shot thanks to an atmosphere, terrestrial rotation, and the fact that what's going downrange actually HAS mass.
Now you're trying to sell me some weird rules that say a tachyon (faster-than-light) cannon could not hit a target with no atmosphere or magnetosphere to diffuse the stream, that is moving slower than the payload of said cannon? Something that, degree-wise, you'd have to have a WWI dreadnought's fire-control capabilities to miss with something that fast? Something that since early-game, you'd have been expected to track? (Size shouldn't be an issue for acquiring a firing solution, because things that small would have been in your own fleet for who-knows-how-long. Such things would be expected to be just as much a target as any other vessel.) As far as any potential reasons of roleplay or anything trying to justify in-universe why these ultra-high-tech battleships couldn't hit the broadside of a barn unless it's a light-week away is just befuddling to me.

I get that this is supposed to be entirely some balance thing, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

As far as balance is concerned, you're making large ships useless again since we have FTL nets on stations. You can always pick an engagement distance if your enemy is the attacker. Especially since with the FTL changes, you have more time to reposition your defenses while the attacker has to use more time to be capable of making any well-informed decision with their fleets. Unless you throw your entire navy at a good defensive system, unless you can bypass it using warp drives (which, last time I read, were getting slower outside of friendly systems), or with the slow-but-apparently-the-best wormhole gates, you're going to fail at an offensive with this updated system. And even then, the defender could reposition or prepare a second wartime fleet that just hangs in orbit of a planet near-to a defensive station. The reason why I'm even bringing up the issue of a multi-fleet defensive net is because corvettes and destroyers a really cheap compared to a battleship with endgame stuff, but now, thanks to just building an outpost, even tier-1 torpedoes on a cheap destroyer fleet could destroy that big high-tech battleship before it gets to fire.

I get that everyone's concerned about balancing because the current system is exploitable, but this isn't going to balance the game as well as you may think. This may well just make battleships useless again, and hell, that lovely Fallen Empire Titan you guys keep showing screenshots of could be made useless by throwing cheap little destroyers at it when it jumps into an inhibitor field and it may just pop before it gets to fire its cute little beam spam. I fail to see how the balancing issue is resolved when players just sit there, turtled up in their own space refusing to make a move for fear of losing the war in one poor engagement.

Go ahead and disagree with me, but this is the way I see this new system going.
If someone proves me wrong outside of a very-specific example, I will retract my statement. To that person, in advance, thank you for a solid argument.
 
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Hmmm. I think fortresses really should have spinal mounts sections. Given huge range of XL weapons, fortresses would otherwise be sitting ducks when attacked by battleships.
 
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Ehhh. I'm leery of these changes. I enjoyed making my own specialized ships, not being pidgeon-holed into particular ways of doing a craft. It was nice making a battleship that will frontline with appropriate equipment and vice versa in the back line. I enjoyed making a cruiser that would hang back with the battleships and utilize long range weaponry with hangars, even using point system defenses to protect the lance-loaded battleships.

I feel that these changes may put some undesired restrictions that inhibit the feel of ship-building liberty. I hope some ship ideas I use stay intact...
 
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I've read through this entire thread and there seems to be some confusion about exactly how rigid the new system is going to be. IF it's as rigid as some seem to think then I share their concern but I have understood that it won't be that bad. For example, I haven't seen any indication that you can't put regular weapons on a corvette, it's not going to be limited to just torps. I'm sure (at least I hope) that you can have small and/or medium lasers or rail guns or missiles on your vettes if you want. In the screen shot, the destroyer has gunship bow and picket ship stern so it sounds like you can still outfit your destroyers with offensive, defensive or mixed capabilities and hopefully, there is still the option for a large mount if you want, even if it can't carry a lance anymore. It's less clear what size of weapon mounts will fit on battleships. the screen shots show X, L and M....hopefully for those that want, you can still have an option to put a bunch of small weapon mounts on a battleship, and I assume the small mounts will have better tracking no matter what size ship they are on. I hope that I can still build a missile cruiser, a gun cruisser and a carrier cruiser and have them all in my fleet, and I've seen no indication that I can't.

As I said earlier in this thread, the changes intrigue me but there's really no way for me to know if I will like it or not until I try it. I've said all along about this game, I hope that all ship sizes stay relevant throughout the entire game....this sounds like an attempt to ensure that so I am all for giving it a try. My only initial complaint is that PD realistically should be able to go on any size ship you want, I understand it's a game play limitation for balance reasons, but wish it didn't have to be that way.
 
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I understand it's a game play limitation for balance reasons, but wish it didn't have to be that way.

I am personally okay with using a ship-restriction, rather than weapon-socket restriction. Lances being restricted to Battleships is perfectly okay to me. However, I do not feel that aux slots are healthy for the game in the manner that we can currently see. Hopefully, I am morbidly wrong in my thoughts.
 

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I am personally okay with using a ship-restriction, rather than weapon-socket restriction. Lances being restricted to Battleships is perfectly okay to me. However, I do not feel that aux slots are healthy for the game in the manner that we can currently see. Hopefully, I am morbidly wrong in my thoughts.

I can certainly see a potential problem. What if a bow section has the weapon mounts I want but has aux spots that I don't and the bow section that doesn't have any aux spots also doesn't have the weapon mounts I want. I would feel better if the Aux slot was along the side right under the sensors and not part of the ship sections. But we'll see how it works.
 
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I don't know if thia has been said before, but the way the ship roles and weapons are rebalanced reminds me vaguely of EVE. Nicely thought out about tracking and evasion, I expect it won't be that far off on practice.
 

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Since we're getting a ship designer update, perhaps some more modifications to it can be made. Maybe something like this to reduce the length of the component lists?

editor_new.png
 
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Count of what type. BTW the sub hunting is an anology to recent past events. Subs also went after capital ships in case you didn't know. Inf act Germany was the ONLY country that specifically restricted their subs to merchants unless given a unique opportunity.

So this is a more evoled rock paper scissor with counts of each rock paper and scissor. If fleet A has corvettes and cruisors and goes up against fleet B with DD's and BB's the number of ships matter. Can the cruisers take out the DD's before the BB's take out the cruisers while seeing if the DD's can take out the corvettes. So the cruisers kill off the DD's and the BB's kill off the cruisers. The DD's do not finish off the torpedo corvettes and now the BB's are toast.

Jus one possible example.

Maybe a good solution would be to have target choice a part of the ship design, so some of your strategy comes from choosing to have different designs charge in, others hold back and target specific targets. This way it's your strategies vs theirs that matter. The same ship used as front line or held back could change the battle.
 

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I've read through this entire thread and there seems to be some confusion about exactly how rigid the new system is going to be. IF it's as rigid as some seem to think then I share their concern but I have understood that it won't be that bad. For example, I haven't seen any indication that you can't put regular weapons on a corvette, it's not going to be limited to just torps. I'm sure (at least I hope) that you can have small and/or medium lasers or rail guns or missiles on your vettes if you want. In the screen shot, the destroyer has gunship bow and picket ship stern so it sounds like you can still outfit your destroyers with offensive, defensive or mixed capabilities and hopefully, there is still the option for a large mount if you want, even if it can't carry a lance anymore. It's less clear what size of weapon mounts will fit on battleships. the screen shots show X, L and M....hopefully for those that want, you can still have an option to put a bunch of small weapon mounts on a battleship, and I assume the small mounts will have better tracking no matter what size ship they are on. I hope that I can still build a missile cruiser, a gun cruisser and a carrier cruiser and have them all in my fleet, and I've seen no indication that I can't.

As I said earlier in this thread, the changes intrigue me but there's really no way for me to know if I will like it or not until I try it. I've said all along about this game, I hope that all ship sizes stay relevant throughout the entire game....this sounds like an attempt to ensure that so I am all for giving it a try. My only initial complaint is that PD realistically should be able to go on any size ship you want, I understand it's a game play limitation for balance reasons, but wish it didn't have to be that way.

Well, for starters it sounds like destoryers are the only ships you'll be able to equip point defense weapons on, as the ability to do so is mentioned as one of their selling points. Because heavens knows that capital ships never carry point defense systems.
 
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RELee

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Well, for starters it sounds like destoryers are the only ships you'll be able to equip point defense weapons on, as the ability to do so is mentioned as one of their selling points. Because heavens knows that capital ships never carry point defense systems.
sarcasm_leonard.jpg

:) Just in case ...
 
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Jepo_au

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I can certainly see a potential problem. What if a bow section has the weapon mounts I want but has aux spots that I don't and the bow section that doesn't have any aux spots also doesn't have the weapon mounts I want. I would feel better if the Aux slot was along the side right under the sensors and not part of the ship sections. But we'll see how it works.

Maybe Aux slots should actually be auxiliary. Unlimited in number, you only have one of each type of thing. It's really enhancing whatever you have on the ships already - this way the auxiliary technologies become quite valuable.
 

samz812

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Well, for starters it sounds like destoryers are the only ships you'll be able to equip point defense weapons on, as the ability to do so is mentioned as one of their selling points. Because heavens knows that capital ships never carry point defense systems.

I went back and looked at the 2nd DD for this patch and it has a screen shot of a battleship with PD so now I'm wondering if we are wrong and that PD can go on any ship or if that has changed since that previous DD to today.

Edit: But that raises a whole other issue of why didn't they just keep PD as a small weapon mount.
 
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