Hey all!

Today’s topic will further explore the subjects of fleet movement, FTL-travel and the general wonders one might happen upon when ripping holes through subspace. As the writing of this is a bit sudden the dev diary came out late today, our apologies!
The galaxy is a pretty huge place and to get anywhere in a timely manner you’ll want to travel faster than the speed of light, or use FTL-travel for short. Stellaris will have three methods of FTL that players can use; Warp, Hyperlanes and Wormholes. They all have distinct advantages and disadvantages when it comes to the strategic movement of ships and fleets causing expansion paths, diplomacy and wars to be quite different depending on the method used.

Warp
Warp requires each ship in the fleet to be equipped with a Warp Drive. These are quite costly to build and cause a major drain on each ship’s available power, but allows unconstrained travel to any system within range. When travelling to a system outside the range of a single warp-jump, the fleet has to make a sequence of jumps through a number of systems. Any jump puts a considerable strain on a ship’s Warp Drive, causing the fleet to not be able to jump again for a short while after arrival. While this can be reduced by more advanced technology, it does remain a weak point throughout the game for any species using this method.
Fleets using Warp Drives to travel will need to do so at the edge of a system to lessen the gravitational pull of the local star. This in combination with the fact that warp-jumps have the slowest FTL-speed of the three methods means that the arrival point of an incoming warp-fleet can be identified, and possibly ambushed. The cost of freedom is potentially high!

Wormhole
Some species have decided to sidestep this whole business of blasting through the void at ludicrous speed. They prefer to open up a temporary wormhole that a fleet may use to instantly travel to a distant system. These wormholes can only be generated by a Wormhole Station, a type of space station that can only be constructed on the outer edge of a system. Any fleet wanting to travel will have to use the Wormhole Station as a connecting point, passing through it whenever they leave the system. The station may only generate a single wormhole at a time, forcing all ships and fleets to wait while one is being prepared. The larger the fleet, the longer it takes for the Wormhole Station to be ready. The wormhole generated does allow two-way travel, but will collapse almost instantly after sending a fleet through.
Constructing and maintaining an efficient network of Wormhole Stations is vital to any species using wormholes, as it will allow sending huge fleets from one part of the galaxy to another in very short time. It also allows striking deep inside enemy territory with little warning. This great strength can also be a great weakness, as fleets are left with no means of further offense or retreat should the network be disabled through covert attacks by enemy strike-fleets.

Hyperdrive
The galaxy in Stellaris has a hidden network of hyperlanes connecting the systems, only visible for those who know where to look. Ships that are equipped with a Hyperdrive can access these lanes and use them to traverse the galaxy at incredible speed. They are however bound by the preexisting network, and has to path through each system connecting their current location and target. Galactic voids lacking systems are in effect huge movement-blockers for any species using hyperlanes, having few systems allowing possible crossings. An enemy could potentially fortify these vital systems should they become aware of their existence, creating strategic choke-points. As the hyperlanes exist in subspace, fleets may access them from anywhere within a system and does not have to travel from the gravitational edge as Warp Drives and Wormhole Stations do. As such, catching a fleet using hyperlanes can be tricky. Correctly identifying the paths to intercept and interrupt their somewhat long charge-up is probably your best bet.

All methods of FTL-travel can be improved by researching more advanced technologies. While their exact effects differ some they all improve the speed, range, efficiency or cooldown of FTL-travel. However, being able to casually bend time and space with increased power does not necessarily mean using it with more responsibility. As additional species bend the laws of physics to send larger and larger fleets through the galaxy, there is always the risk of something, or someone, noticing...

Next week we’ll talk more about the different species in the galaxy. Look forward to it!

 

[TheDungen]

Well on the other hand underestimating the influence of some given persons is also a mistake. The problems with relativity principle and the Maxwell-equations have been known, so if not Einstein, then Poincaré or Lorentz would come out with a solution leading to the special relativity (they already had an almost working theory)... not so true for the general relativity. Or the problems with the Aristotelean mechanics were know for centuries, indeed medieval "scientist" (not the proper word, but leave it like that) already got results very similar to the conservation of momentum. Yet it did not condense to a theory (and we know that it must have been totally hard, while the typical pattern for a theory/invention that multiple people come up with generally the same idea in the same time and this did not happen with the classical mechanics)...

On the other hand I agree with genius requires a problem, but problems tends to arise when there is nothing simple to research. If there is enough advancement possibility in the actual framework, then geniuses tend work on "minor" stuff (because they are not really dumb and research requires support anyway).

So IMHO, that FTL is paradigm changing thing and in the game the three FTL works using different principles. So it would be vastly more easy to do evolutionary steps with the current design (with sound scientific understanding and ready to use infrastructure) than to come up with a paradigm describing the alternative FTL systems. The only reasonable (mean: not prohibitively expensive and generally wasteful) way to do it is if another race sets up factory and train your people on that field too.

You seem to be labouring under the illusion that any species capable of space craft werenät trying to progress scientifically at all times, I can assure you that any species that does not constantly improve it's science will fall behind technology wise too. And another species may not even be able to explain it to you, your minds may be so diffrent that their science and yours only share some of the most basic common ground.
It may in fact be cheaper and more prouctive to simply set the problem before you scientific community than trying to get an alien mindset to explain it to you. And thatäa ssuming that the aliens who made it is around, and if they are willing to share their secrets.
As for the medival times several scientists back then did figure these thigns out despite that in their age contradicting aristotle was a considered a sin. You can't compare that to modern and even futuristic times when almost everyone it litterate almost everyone can do math and find information, when governemts don't prersecute but finence scientific research. We've been speeding up our pace of scientific research so much the last centuries than even technology is laggning behind. We've had quantum physics for half a century and only now are we moving into actually using it.
And don't come saying that humanity is an example of a forward thinking race our science spending compared to our global yearly revenue will tell you that's a lie.

Spoiler: For an example

 

[bz249]

You seem to be labouring under the illusion that any species capable of space craft werenät trying to progress scientifically at all times, I can assure you that any species that does not constantly improve it's science will fall behind technology wise too. And another species may not even be able to explain it to you, your minds may be so diffrent that their science and yours only share some of the most basic common ground.
It may in fact be cheaper and more prouctive to simply set the problem before you scientific community than trying to get an alien mindset to explain it to you. And thatäa ssuming that the aliens who made it is around, and if they are willing to share their secrets.
As for the medival times several scientists back then did figure these thigns out despite that in their age contradicting aristotle was a considered a sin. You can't compare that to modern and even futuristic times when almost everyone it litterate almost everyone can do math and find information, when governemts don't prersecute but finence scientific research. We've been speeding up our pace of scientific research so much the last centuries than even technology is laggning behind. We've had quantum physics for half a century and only now are we moving into actually using it.
And don't come saying that humanity is an example of a forward thinking race our science spending compared to our global yearly revenue will tell you that's a lie.

Questioning Aristotele in China or India was most probably not a sin... yet they also not come up with classical mechanics.

But the key part is the bold one. We had quantum mechanics and we are moving into actually using it. So we are not really figuring out its weaknesses, where quantum mechanics fails. But we are going to use it since it is a successful paradigm. There is plenty to do without questioning its main statements. Just as there was pleanty to do with classical mechanics in the 18th century. No real surprise they did not develop things which contradicts to them.

Now your race have a physical understanding of wormholes, this has developed organically has every infrastructure it. It is way more easy to further develop in than warp drive (where even basic understanding is lacking). What would a bright young scientist do? Go with the well known way of success (wormholes) or try something obscure (warp drive)?

For a case study see how carbon nanotubes revolutionized computing (they did not, each and every potential advantages are cancelled by the problem that it could not be integrated with the standard process... and since vastly more research and development was done with Si, its properties are much well understood, it has an established manufacturing it has won the day).

 

[echo2361]

*sigh* I keep seeing new replies to this thread hoping to see more discussion about the gameplay mechanics of FTL and instead I see page after page of scientific debates. Such discussions have their place, but I wish they'd happen in another thread. I'm excited about the FTL options Stellaris is going to offer us and I want to discuss those with people rather than read through debates about the possibilities of actual FTL travel. Just my two cents.

 

[TheDungen]

Questioning Aristotele in China or India was most probably not a sin... yet they also not come up with classical mechanics.

But the key part is the bold one. We had quantum mechanics and we are moving into actually using it. So we are not really figuring out its weaknesses, where quantum mechanics fails. But we are going to use it since it is a successful paradigm. There is plenty to do without questioning its main statements. Just as there was pleanty to do with classical mechanics in the 18th century. No real surprise they did not develop things which contradicts to them.

Now your race have a physical understanding of wormholes, this has developed organically has every infrastructure it. It is way more easy to further develop in than warp drive (where even basic understanding is lacking). What would a bright young scientist do? Go with the well known way of success (wormholes) or try something obscure (warp drive)?

For a case study see how carbon nanotubes revolutionized computing (they did not, each and every potential advantages are cancelled by the problem that it could not be integrated with the standard process... and since vastly more research and development was done with Si, its properties are much well understood, it has an established manufacturing it has won the day).

China had equal periods of blotting out scientific thought, the first emperor burned all writings that did not confirm with his view of the world. Before that they had a structure very close to the scientific method. My guess is that India was no walk of roses either.

*sigh* I keep seeing new replies to this thread hoping to see more discussion about the gameplay mechanics of FTL and instead I see page after page of scientific debates. Such discussions have their place, but I wish they'd happen in another thread. I'm excited about the FTL options Stellaris is going to offer us and I want to discuss those with people rather than read through debates about the possibilities of actual FTL travel. Just my two cents.

Actually we're debating wheter we think there should be a dedicated science mechanic in the game separate from the technological progress mechanic. Honeslt I'm not even saying there should be only that'd be cool if anyone at any time recognized that science and technology is not the same thing. God forbid that philosophy be represented in a game either.

 

[Atlantians]

That's basically my entire point.. In the next line, I state that in the future an otherwise certain theory might be revised if we discover it's more advanced than we thought. Please don't tell me you prefer a slightly different word to describe basically the same.

I do. Theory has a technical meaning.

Also, regarding Gravity, it is interesting to note that Gravity changes depending on where you are on the earth.

Gravity is somehow linear; similar to how the rate of time changes depending on your distance from a higher gravitational object.

 

[Velorian]

I do. Theory has a technical meaning.

Also, regarding Gravity, it is interesting to note that Gravity changes depending on where you are on the earth.

Gravity is somehow linear; similar to how the rate of time changes depending on your distance from a higher gravitational object.

Well I wasn't talking scientific theory in strictly technical terms, I was discussing theory with everyday language. I wasn't confused with the difference.

At any rate there was no mistakes in what I said, even from a technical viewpoint:

Few question the Theory of Gravity but pretty much any scientific theory could be wrong or proven to have exceptions. Perhaps the future discovers that, while usually true, under specific criteria an otherwise certain phenomena behaves differently.

So in other words I said the Theory of Gravity might be revised if we discover that actual gravity behaves differently from what we'd expect, under certain conditions.

I used Theory of Gravity because most people think of it as a certainty even though the specifics of the theory could very well change if we discover unexplained phenomenon. We have no scientific reason to believe artificial gravity would be possible to create from some sort of device but it wouldn't be impossible for another civilization to have discovered a way to make it work. We just have no idea how that would work.

 

[Finnway]

Actually we're debating whether we think there should be a dedicated science mechanic in the game separate from the technological progress mechanic.

Exactly. Which has nothing to do with the thread topic.

 

[TheDungen]

Exactly. Which has nothing to do with the thread topic.

Eh yeah it does since FTL technology is pretty much the most important technology in the game. I even suggested that it alone be given this treatment if nothign else simply because it is so important.

 

[Finnway]

Eh yeah it does since FTL technology is pretty much the most important technology in the game.

Yeah... And it's a technology you get for free at game start. Independent of the regular technology system. So again, what does it have to do with the topic?

 

[TheDungen]

Yeah... And it's a technology you get for free at game start. Independent of the regular technology system. So again, what does it have to do with the topic?

Eh no you get the first level of one FTL tech at game start and is then locked in into only reserchign further advances inside of that type of FTL. What I'm saying is that that's artificial and that there are better ways to offer unique paths and experiences (and thus replayability) than to limit us to researching just one of these technologies. In allowing the one of these technologies that we first encounter to shape the evolution of said technologies group, or perhaps even let all of our initial considtions shape a full science system in the same way.

You know if you don't want more posts about this why don't you just bother to read the posts in the previous pages instead of forcing me to repeat myself?

 

[Prophet of ReShrek]

Hyperdrive seems a little weaker than the other two. Just slightly.

 

[Kuschelflummi]

How about sort of a miniquest in the first few moment where you choose some answers and get your FTL tech.

 

[bz249]

Hyperdrive seems a little weaker than the other two. Just slightly.

Depends a lot on the costs... my first impression is that wormholes looks like "air operations" long range, fast but one have to control the fragile and costly "airport". Warp is like U-Boot, slow weak (if the energy requirements are true) but can retreat to safety where no non-warp ship can follow. Hyperlane is battleship, no fanciness but direct confrontation and slugfest (they seems to be the cheapest option, so probably hyperlane fleets will be the largest).

 

[TheDungen]

Hyperdrive seems a little weaker than the other two. Just slightly.

How can you tell without knowing specifics? It all depends on how limited the range is of the wormholes how long they take to charge, if they have transit time and if they do then how long it is. How common hyperspace lanes are how hard it's to explore outside of these, how much faster travel in hyperspace lanes is compared to warp.

 

[HeartsofMetal]

#HYPERDRIVEMASTERRACE

Cant wait for the game ;_;

 

[Prophet of ReShrek]

How can you tell without knowing specifics? It all depends on how limited the range is of the wormholes how long they take to charge, if they have transit time and if they do then how long it is. How common hyperspace lanes are how hard it's to explore outside of these, how much faster travel in hyperspace lanes is compared to warp.

I'm the king of the castle.

 

[Finnway]

Hyperdrive seems a little weaker than the other two. Just slightly.

As far as I can tell. It'll let you explore faster early game because it has no cooldown. It's also better for defense because your fleets can enter warp from anywhere in the solar system instead of moving to the edge first. It's also faster for traveling short-distances because Warpdrives are the slowest FTL and Wormholes have to wait until your space-stations generate a portal.

In theory, you can really screw your opponents over by invading multiple systems and once and retreating before his fleets arrive. Since the other two methods have longer cooldowns, your fleets will be free to harass his other systems while his fleets are grounded.

 

[Kollatius]

You can enter warp without traveling to the edge of the galaxy first.

*Solar system

 

[Finnway]

*Solar system

Oops! Big mistake, lol!

 

[TheDungen]

Oops! Big mistake, lol!

Big is the word, some 100.000 lightyears in size.