Stellaris Dev Diary #30 - Late Game Crises

[Poodlestrike]

Part of me is hoping one of the Crises will be akin to Halo's "Flood".

Would definitely be awesome. Especially if it progresses like the Flood does...

(Or did, I mean. Reading about the stuff it got up to fighting the Forerunners gives me chills in a very good way)

 

[TheDungen]

I'm sorry but I think from a real world perspective this is simply naive.

There is no cosmic law saying there are options other than fighting for every circumstance, and even if there does happen to be other options, in many cases those options are deeply inferior ethically/morally to other options, in my opinion. (Such as letting enormous amount of innocents die because you refuse to defend your people with force from an existential threat)

Now, if you really want to let the AI exterminate your empire or subjugate you then you are free to do so. It'll be a very short game for you, however...

No but real life doesn't come with game overs. Being conquered is a perfectly viable strategy for pacisfists in real life. There are much more effective means of resistance than fighting.
And yes there are always alternatives to fighting. Letting yourself be conquered, fleeing and so on. The problem with stellaris is that it takes a few of these of the table. But since it has a pacifist ethos it needs to actually support a pacifict playstyle too. And avoiding fighting is not pacifism (thogh people seems to make that mistake, I just read a movie review claiming that captain america is a pacifist, one of those real wtf moments) it's common sense. Pacifism is refusing to fight.
And wheter you view these things to be morally worse than fighting is of no consequence because we're not talking your morals we're talking the morals of a pacifist extremist.

 

[Rezca]

Would definitely be awesome. Especially if it progresses like the Flood does...

(Or did, I mean. Reading about the stuff it got up to fighting the Forerunners gives me chills in a very good way)

Chilling indeed~

If it were exactly Flood-like though, I wonder exactly how it would be "beatable". Pretty much every Halo fan knows how the Flood was beaten back the first time, and I highly doubt we'll have that option in Stellaris - thank god for that.

Thinking about this though, it might be cool to see a mod recreate the Flood as a late-game disaster.

 

[Deathknight15]

And avoiding fighting is not pacifism (thogh people seems to make that mistake, I just read a movie review claiming that captain america is a pacifist, one of those real wtf moments) it's common sense. Pacifism is refusing to fight.

Maybe you define Pacifism that way, but the term refers to opposition to war, militarism, or violence (according to Wikipedia, and that is a good summary in my opinion). There are not that many pacifists who wouldn't even fight off someone who was trying to kill them or their family.

No but real life doesn't come with game overs. Being conquered is a perfectly viable strategy for pacisfists in real life. There are much more effective means of resistance than fighting.

And what about when Tyranids are devouring your entire civilization or your people are being systematically sent to death camps? What is the effective non-violent response to an implacable foe that is bent only on your complete annihilation?

And yes there are always alternatives to fighting. Letting yourself be conquered, fleeing and so on. The problem with stellaris is that it takes a few of these of the table.

See the above, but your assertion that there are "always alternative to fighting" is simply not true. There are numerous scenarios, some of which have happened in history, where the only option with a chance of avoiding your destruction is violence.

But since it has a pacifist ethos it needs to actually support a pacifict playstyle too.

It does support a pacifist play style, even in the extreme definition you seem to be taking, feel free to allow your empire to be destroyed whenever you like.

And wheter you view these things to be morally worse than fighting is of no consequence because we're not talking your morals we're talking the morals of a pacifist extremist.

This is good point.


My point in the past still stands, any extremist pacifist empire that refuses to even defend itself would not survive very long. Therefore I don't think Paradox is obligated to cater to the fantasies of pacifistic extremists by somehow shoehorning a peaceful solution into every situation. Pacifism in the game doesn't seem to refer to that extreme, and its simply not realistic anyway.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Chilling indeed~

If it were exactly Flood-like though, I wonder exactly how it would be "beatable". Pretty much every Halo fan knows how the Flood was beaten back the first time, and I highly doubt we'll have that option in Stellaris - thank god for that.

Thinking about this though, it might be cool to see a mod recreate the Flood as a late-game disaster.

Oh, that's definitely going to happen. Giving the Gravemind all the abilities it's supposed to have will be tricky tho.

 

[Rezca]

Oh, that's definitely going to happen. Giving the Gravemind all the abilities it's supposed to have will be tricky tho.

Some of its abilities vary on the technology and knowledge it has access to. The Flood was it its most dangerous once it gained access to the Precursor's neural physics tech like the Star Roads. Prior to that, the Forerunners may have actually had a chance - albeit still a slim one - at beating it conventionally, but once it learned how to use Precursor tech that was the end of it.

Its the turning slain and infected victims into additional soldiers that I might see being tricky, depending on how modding this game will work. Infecting a planet may as well just be its own version of terraforming, though I don't know how the Logic Plague would factor into Stellaris' gameplay mechanics.....

 

[Poodlestrike]

Some of its abilities vary on the technology and knowledge it has access to. The Flood was it its most dangerous once it gained access to the Precursor's neural physics tech like the Star Roads. Prior to that, the Forerunners may have actually had a chance - albeit still a slim one - at beating it conventionally, but once it learned how to use Precursor tech that was the end of it.

Its the turning slain and infected victims into additional soldiers that I might see being tricky, depending on how modding this game will work. Infecting a planet may as well just be its own version of terraforming, though I don't know how the Logic Plague would factor into Stellaris' gameplay mechanics.....

Logic Plague was the big one I was thinking of... infecting sentient AI? Basically flipping intact pops?

Plus some of the stuff it did in terms of literally warping spacetime, but that might be it hijacking Precursor stuff, now that I stop and think about it.

 

[Rezca]

Logic Plague was the big one I was thinking of... infecting sentient AI? Basically flipping intact pops?

Plus some of the stuff it did in terms of literally warping spacetime, but that might be it hijacking Precursor stuff, now that I stop and think about it.

Perhaps the Logic Plague would only truly affect the nations that are utilizing sentient artificial life forms. If that sector of the game hasn't already developed into a galactic crisis, it could go along side with this one; potentially disabling the other crisis so you don't have both going off at once.


Yeah, I think that started happening after it started fielding neural physics tech, denying access to slipspace and warping spacetime wasn't something the Gravemind or its planetary Keyminds could do prior to that.

 

[fatedkoga]

Will any of these late game disasters be able to make planets uninhabitable?

 

[Furrnox]

Hype is REALLLL BOIYS

 

[Daniel_Pajak]

I did the preiorder of galaxy version and now counting seconds until release.... Time can pass so slowly

What about supernovae, galaxies crushing in each other, subspace fractures, time travelers helping your empire or being a pain?

I hope someone will create a Star Trek mode asap portraying the species and ships - this would be perfect - and than I need 2 weeks off and enough supplies in the fridge so I don't need go outside

 

[TheDungen]

Maybe you define Pacifism that way, but the term refers to opposition to war, militarism, or violence (according to Wikipedia, and that is a good summary in my opinion). There are not that many pacifists who wouldn't even fight off someone who was trying to kill them or their family.

Opposition not merely reluctance. I would not consider someone pacifist if they keep making exceptions, that why we have the concept technical pacifist, that is someone who makes exception.

And what about when Tyranids are devouring your entire civilization or your people are being systematically sent to death camps? What is the effective non-violent response to an implacable foe that is bent only on your complete annihilation?

I mean stuff like a shields, I mean stuff like cloaking devices, I mean stuff like phasing, I mean stuff like making warp unstable around your borders (good luck reaching me with sublight speeds) stuff like retreating and letting your friends or preferably your enemies get slaughtered while you seek a technoloical solutution. I'm talking opening up a portal to another universe and leaving I'm talking folding space to remove yourself from the conflict. I'm talkign setting up a time dialation field around your planet so you can research a solution for a thousand years the day before they arrive at your homeworld. I'm talking using the same time dialation field to trap these beings in near stasis forever. I'm talking stuff like building big honking ships and leaving for another galaxy. Or freezing the most important members of your society at a hidden location and simply waiting until they leave. Or unleashign another crisis in their wake to delay them. If they are from outside the universe something like the necron pylons may work, if they are nids then perhaps the things they use in starcraft to control the swarm, or just a pheromone thing that keeps them away. Or move your people to space stations around a black hole and wait the enemy out, And all these solutions took me like 5 minutes to come up with. There are plenty more solutions that does not include firing a single shot.

See the above, but your assertion that there are "always alternative to fighting" is simply not true. There are numerous scenarios, some of which have happened in history, where the only option with a chance of avoiding your destruction is violence.

No not really name me one people that has actuallly been destroyed in hisotry. Sure some which have been thinned down and assimiliated but there are none that have been completly wiped out.

It does support a pacifist play style, even in the extreme definition you seem to be taking, feel free to allow your empire to be destroyed whenever you like.

Except I said that in a game with game overs they need to be a bit more liberal with the options. Why does the non optimal option of losing half your empire while you gfigure out a paceful solution bother you? No one is forcing you to do it, it's for peaceful AI personalities and players who like to roleplay, in fact as I said it may not even work if they are gobbling up your space to fast and you can't find some way to delay them. You may simply not have the time to finish that line of special projects that will save you.
Also these special projects should be in the game since no one single empire should be able to more than delay a crisis force, if you can defeat them inn a fari fight then they are to weak.

My point in the past still stands, any extremist pacifist empire that refuses to even defend itself would not survive very long. Therefore I don't think Paradox is obligated to cater to the fantasies of pacifistic extremists by somehow shoehorning a peaceful solution into every situation. Pacifism in the game doesn't seem to refer to that extreme, and its simply not realistic anyway.

They have promised to cater to ever sci-fi trope. And I give you the Vulcans from star trek who are pacifists who won't raise their hand even to defend themselves (hence the neck pinch) and won't supply weapons for federation vessels, nor serve as weapons officers. Even when one fires a phaser it's always set to stun.
Why? Because they have realised that going around killing people tends to foster more conflict not less. It's simply not logical.
In other speculative fiction, the thuan'an or the jenn aiel of the wheel of time series are a perfect example of a perfectly pacifist race, and the struggles such a people face. I direct you to the story from the fall when they surround a mad aes sadailock a circle and sing as he butchers them to allow others the time to escape. Pacifist can be totally bad-ass. Granted some pops will not be fine with it and they likely will defect during such a policy, but that happened to the aiel to.
And I don't believe that it's shoe horning I believe that some kind of research project should always be needed to defeat a crisis, either a peace conference (societal research) to form a coalition, or some super technology that needs time to complete, the point is that the solution is always there the diffrence is that the pacifists don't do killing solutions and they use other delay tactics (ships with shields and stasis weaponary or stun guns for an example) while getting the solution ready. But force of arms alone should not be enough to fend of a crisis (unless again you unite the galaxy against them).
There are in fact very few works of sci-fi where the enemy is actually beaten by sheer force of arms. And most of those are stuff that I woudn't consider sci-fi, but space opera or something.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

No not really name me one people that has actuallly been destroyed in hisotry. Sure some which have been thinned down and assimiliated but there are none that have been completly wiped out.

Native Tasmanians.

(I agree with everything you said in your post and I think it's very well reasoned, but... Native Tasmanians. However, it's worth pointing out that from what we know of them, they were a militaristic people with a strong warrior culture, and that still didn't save them.)

 

[Quaade]

When did they change the technology count to 4? is it trait, technology or a change due to QA?

 

[Caspoi]

When did they change the technology count to 4? is it trait, technology or a change due to QA?

Some things, like having a science diretorate for government, increases it.

 

[Kapitalisti]

No not really name me one people that has actuallly been destroyed in hisotry. Sure some which have been thinned down and assimiliated but there are none that have been completly wiped out.

Carthage?

 

[Voidlord]

To people arguing that there is never a reason to fight, that is highly Naive.
There is always a group that cant be negotiated with OR viewed the use of Diplomacy as a weakness eg; Hitler and the Nazis, and of course Daesh.
How were the Nazis beaten, oh yea they were beaten with FORCE. How is Daesh getting pushed back? With the use of Force.
Of course theuse of Force should be the last resort, but it shouldnt be outright ignored...

TBH I hope the Scourge CANT be negiotated with, being more like animals just wanting to eat everything...

 

[TheDungen]

Carthage?

The city of carthage? But carthage had loads of cities. Also most of the carthaginians were ensalved not wiped out. They in fact caused such a cultural and genetic influx that some historians think that the conquest of carthage may be why the italians generally have dark hair, at the very least eating carthage changed rome, in many ways rome would eventually become closer to the heir of carthage than the heir of their own earlier eras.
And the carthaginians were not seenby either themselves or anyone else in their time as carthaginians, they were phenocians, and I'm pretty sure there are still phoenecian descendants living in lebanon.
Would you like to try again?
Also don't feel bad I expected this response when I said what I said and thus had soem time to think what arugments I would make.

Native Tasmanians.

(I agree with everything you said in your post and I think it's very well reasoned, but... Native Tasmanians. However, it's worth pointing out that from what we know of them, they were a militaristic people with a strong warrior culture, and that still didn't save them.)

I am not familiar with them, you may be right...

Edit: As I understand it they were resettled to the mainland and the "pureblood" line died out. Which I read as assimilation not a full on total genocide. I could be wrong though.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Will any of these late game disasters be able to make planets uninhabitable?

I hope so. At last one should be a shivan-like-planet-purging-imposible-to-treat omnicidal maniac type.

 

[Voidlord]

I hope so. At last one should be a shivan-like-planet-purging-imposible-to-treat omnicidal maniac type.

Presumably the Scourge strip a planet of all Organic Matter, turning it into a Barren World...