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Stellaris Dev Diary #288 - Payback and Insights

Nothing unites people more than a common enemy.

You know how the story goes: space invaders attack, and the people of the world unite, casting aside their differences to stand together against a shared threat. Together, they defeat the more advanced enemy, who foolishly underestimated the plucky underdogs.

But what happens after the story ends? The former invaders are still out there, and they won’t be fooled again. An awkward reunion is unavoidable.
I'm CheerfulGoth, a content designer on Stellaris, and this is the story I wanted to tell with Payback.


Payback is the “sibling” of Broken Shackles, two origins united by a common threat: Minamar Specialized Industries, a megacorp that provides pre-FTL enlightenment – for a price. While Broken Shackles focuses more on reconnecting with your past, Payback empires only see one thing in their future: revenge.

Payback Origin Tooltip


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The means of achieving that revenge are up to you. Annihilate your enemy? Turn your slavers into your slaves? Or battle them on the floor of the Galactic senate, outlawing their very business model? Even Pacifist empires will have the means to obtain their vendetta without betraying their ideals.

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Revenge doesn’t have to be synonymous with violence.
Don’t be too hasty in your quest for revenge, though. Rest. Take your time to rebuild. The war against MSI left you with a devastated planet... And the remnant of a battleship to be repurposed for your own needs.

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Make new allies (Broken Shackles empires might be particularly inclined to help you). Remember: revenge is a dish best served cold. Don’t wait too long, though, because the Minamar Specialized Industries surely won’t let you alone.

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You want to make them pay? The feeling is mutual.

We’re not so different, you and I​

The galaxy of Stellaris is already filled with extra-dimensional invaders, space dragons, and all kinds of unimaginable horrors. With Payback and Broken Shackles, we wanted to pit players against an enemy not so different from themselves. Minamar Specialized industry starts as a developed empire with extra colonies and resources, but otherwise behaves like a normal empire with a well-defined personality. They will make their own alliances, join their Galactic Community, wage their wars... and might even fall before you can get your due.

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What will you do when even revenge is stolen from you?

Many of our narrative Origins present a fixed story. With Payback, we wanted to create a less linear narrative, providing players with multiple tools to accomplish their goal. Sometimes things don’t go as planned, but we believe that’s what will make this origin more interesting and replayable.

We give you an enemy. You tell us how you want to pay them back.



Insights​


Now for the return of PDS_Iggy who desperately wants you to stop invading pre-FTLs.

A common issue that has been brought up in regards to this DLC is “Why shouldn’t I just invade the pre-FTLs the moment I meet them” and I am here to present a counter offer. What if I give you unique techs?

Insight Technologies are gained when you study pre-FTLs without making them aware of you. They are unique paths their society take which you have dismissed as dead ends. This is all tracked through a situation which, once completed, will make a future observation event grant you a new Insight.

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We can learn from anything and anyone.

If you haven’t completed the situation when you get an observation event instead you gain even faster progress to the next Insight.

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I am sure it’s nothing.

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These Insight technologies are designed to have unique and flavorful effects. So let me share a few with you.

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Let’s see how close we can get with our observation station.

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A smart hunter lets the environment aid their hunt.

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How were the pyramids built? Let's check!

As you can see these technologies grant you partial Envoys as well as a unique benefit. Therefore, the more you spy and study the pre-FTLs, the more you can do it!

Next week, Alfray Stryke will finally tell you about cloaking, and I might be back to help him explain the new civics!

 

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Yes, there are preset empires for the new origins, but they won't be used by the AI.
If you play an empire with the Payback/Broken Shackles origin, the MSI and another empire with the other Origin will spawn, but the AI will never create a Payback/Broken Shackles empire and fill the galaxy with all these people you don't care about.


Yes! We hope you'll have fun playing them together.

Can broken shackles/payback be force spawned? What happens if in multiplayer one player plays payback, and another plays broken shackles, but with different primary species? Does that lead to both empires having both species, or does this lead to two sets of these empires, or does the game get angry and say no?
 
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Can broken shackles/payback be force spawned? What happens if in multiplayer one player plays payback, and another plays broken shackles, but with different primary species? Does that lead to both empires having both species, or does this lead to two sets of these empires, or does the game get angry and say no?

Just at a glance, you don't have to be the same species.
Broken Shackles will, I expect, pull some of the pops from the Payback player as some of your pseudo-random pops.
I don't think the game should ever get angry and say 'no' unless there's a glitch in the system somewhere. RAW, there isn't even a reason you can't have multiple Payback or multiple Broken Shackles species. Could be an interesting MP game to have everyone playing as either of them!
 
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Yes, there are preset empires for the new origins, but they won't be used by the AI.
If you play an empire with the Payback/Broken Shackles origin, the MSI and another empire with the other Origin will spawn, but the AI will never create a Payback/Broken Shackles empire and fill the galaxy with all these people you don't care about.

Well, that brings up another question. Can I create more then one Empire with either of those origins and set them all to spawn? So I have a single Payback and two Broken Shackles for example, will only a single instance of MSI spawn and be used for all of them? Or will the game remove one of the Broken Shackles empires because it's only one of each allowed?
 
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The insight techs look pretty cool. I do have one question though.

I assume the insight techs are one per pre-ftl planet. Once we get the insight tech from that planet, is there any incentive after that point to not just invade the planet and take all the pops? Or are there more/other benefits to staying hidden?
 
The insight techs look pretty cool. I do have one question though.

I assume the insight techs are one per pre-ftl planet. Once we get the insight tech from that planet, is there any incentive after that point to not just invade the planet and take all the pops? Or are there more/other benefits to staying hidden?
You still get passive resource income, same as currently
And they said previously that you can reveal your presence and start trading with them
 
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I don't quite understand why some of the civics for Payback are banned.

While it would limit the options you have Fanatic Purifiers sounds like it would fit. "The aliens came and attacked us, so we cannot trust any of them again." Would actually be pretty interesting if you could make it so Payback Purifiers do not have the same animosity towards the Broken Shackle races.
 
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The insight techs look pretty cool. I do have one question though.

I assume the insight techs are one per pre-ftl planet. Once we get the insight tech from that planet, is there any incentive after that point to not just invade the planet and take all the pops? Or are there more/other benefits to staying hidden?
You get the benefit of being very nice to a fledgeling civilization and feeling good about it.
Unless they’re xenophobes then you can infilitrate or invade them lmao.
 
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I don't quite understand why some of the civics for Payback are banned.

While it would limit the options you have Fanatic Purifiers sounds like it would fit. "The aliens came and attacked us, so we cannot trust any of them again." Would actually be pretty interesting if you could make it so Payback Purifiers do not have the same animosity towards the Broken Shackle races.

Purifiers rely on a sense of superiority, they are the rightful masters of the universe. Payback can still be F-Xenophobe, but the illusion of supremacy is shattered, the xeno may be evil, but it is objectively not lesser


Edit to correct autocorrect induced error
 
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Two questions:

1) Can the Insight Technologies be stolen via "steal technology" mission?

2) Can the Insight Technologies be shared/revealed via Research Agreement?
 
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"Now for the return of PDS_Iggy who desperately wants you to stop invading pre-FTLs."

Nope. I love the sound of landing dropships in the morning.
 
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I'm just going to copy my post from reddit.

Many of our narrative Origins present a fixed story.

I'm glad you guys are aware of the problem. Is Paradox really just jumping on the seasonal model bandwagon as it appears? The last couple batches of Origins have been, let's say inflexible. Either they are so mechanical focused that they are one trick ponies, or, so narratively rigid that there is only a couple of reasonable ways to tell the story. Unless it's for pure power reasons, like say Clone Army, they don't have any real replay value. Eladrin praises you consistently as some of the best around, what are you guys doing to fix it? Do you even intend to? I know Eladrin has remarked that Origins effect the early game too much and then fall off, and he wanted them to have more of an impact throughout the game, so I assume at least some of this follows from that, but to be frank, it sucks. Stellaris is pretty mediocre at telling discrete stories. It's got too much RNG, and it's too great at emergent storytelling. Why aren't you doubling down more on that? You can see it in the player counts on Steam. Dev diaries and the like drive hype, which I don't entirely begrudge - I get it, you guys need to make money, but the player numbers spike for a month and then they disappear again until you guys start the hype cycle anew for the next release. And while this isn't a serious multiplayer game, where day to day retention matters, it feels bad value wise. Or at least to me it does.

With Payback, we wanted to create a less linear narrative

Except you failed to that. You give us the target, the goal, the motive, and the 3 ways of completing it. How isn't this the red/green/blue endings to Mass Effect? Non-linear would be something like Lost Colony, where sure, you get the goal and the motive, but they are vague enough that the tale is yours to make of it what you will. You don't have third parties, on both sides of the equation to act as minders to keep you on task.

Now for the return of PDS_Iggy who desperately wants you to stop invading pre-FTLs.

This won't stop you from invading pre-FTL's. All this does is delay it. And even then most of the time it won't, judging by the power levels suggested there. I would have to run the math, but gut math says that just taking the pops and putting them to work is, on average, outright better than any of the 3 presented. The only real 'boon' is the increased Envoy's, where .25 of an Envoy 'feels' kinda bad. They really should be .5 at a minimum. If for no other reason than to account for the increased envoy usage.

Which leads me to ask, where is the additional ways of interacting with these societies? Cause technically there are 2 new Espionage abilities, giving you the ability to pseudo control MTTH to even make these techs farmable. Otherwise it's all stuff we can do right now. You just moved some of it from the normal station to Espionage. Even the 'train heist' isn't really interacting with them, it's just another variation on dealing with the rogue scientist who went and made crop circles, or proclaimed himself a god to the locals, and now we have to deal with *him* rather than *them*. It's why I pointed to Planet States before. I would link to it but the author hid it. If we could do more things like that, instead of making them full fledged empires, raise them to a baseline tech level, but not have them be star seeking. Allow you to basically create your own Enclave. Have them give you missions like in the TNG episode Half a Life where the people were smart/advanced enough to generate a theory to fix their sun that was unstable but lacked the ships to test it, so had to ask the Federation for help. Sure, everyone loves Naky, but I think that is more of a narrative problem rather than one of mechanics. It's a small loss to move your science ship that you use to assist research to go handle the problem and return.

Those would give me reasons not to just immediately invade and have some actual story play.
 
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Receiving a couple, flavored, "unique" techs doesn't weigh up the loss of an entire system (+ several planets if there are any). What's the point of NOT invading a pre-FTL species UNLESS it's really just one planet in that system?
This DLC is shaping up to be disappointing IMO. A lot of fluff and no changes to the pre-FTL mechanics (bar the integration into the Intel, Diplomacy and Espionage system).
 
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Insights​


Now for the return of PDS_Iggy who desperately wants you to stop invading pre-FTLs.

A common issue that has been brought up in regards to this DLC is “Why shouldn’t I just invade the pre-FTLs the moment I meet them” and I am here to present a counter offer. What if I give you unique techs?

Insight Technologies are gained when you study pre-FTLs without making them aware of you. They are unique paths their society take which you have dismissed as dead ends. This is all tracked through a situation which, once completed, will make a future observation event grant you a new Insight.
So I was wondering. What incentive do you have to keep the pre-FTL society as it is/leave it alone if they become aware of you?

If they find out there are aliens, and you can't get anymore insights from them, what's keeping you from sending in the armies then and get a new planet? A new planet does still seem more beneficial than the unity deposit from a embassy or a limited commercial pact.
 
Receiving a couple, flavored, "unique" techs doesn't weigh up the loss of an entire system (+ several planets if there are any). What's the point of NOT invading a pre-FTL species UNLESS it's really just one planet in that system?
This DLC is shaping up to be disappointing IMO. A lot of fluff and no changes to the pre-FTL mechanics (bar the integration into the Intel, Diplomacy and Espionage system).
You don't lose an entire system though? Just one singular planet
And for the off chance that the primitives get close to reaching FTL you can just invade them then (or enlighten them and make them a vassal, vassals are always nice to have)
But anything earlier than steam age not only has too little populace to be worth the effort, but also has no realistic chance of ever developing enough to reach space and claim the system

Granted, "one system" is a laughably low price in the first place, lol
That's at best worth a handful of minerals, energy and tech - the odds of rare resources are so low they are not even worth being considered
 
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